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Were the Rachni indoctrinated?


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#1
AbsolutGrndZer0

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So, on the Wikia page there is a caveat on the talk page about Indoctrination that says "STOP ADDING THE RACHNI" and really... to me and many others the Rachni Queen plainly makes it clear that they were indoctrinated.  Just because she isn't 100% sure doesn't mean we can't look at her description and see it.

"Sour yellow tone from outer space" What else could that be but The Reapers?


But, since the Rachni Queen doesn't say "I, the Rachni Queen, being of sound mind and body am 100% certain in my mind  that the Reapers indoctrinated my sisters." then... there will always be doubt for some people, and the powers that be at the wikia page refuse to allow Rachni to be added.  And, I think even if she said that, some would still think she MIGHT be wrong.

So.. I ask here because I am hoping a Developer can chime in and let us know with a quote one way or another.  

Were the Rachni indoctrinated?

My fellow players are welcome to give "opinions" but since my post is to find out the "truth" for the wikia page, that means only a quote from a Bioware person the Wikia would trust will suffice.

Modifié par AbsolutGrndZer0, 09 septembre 2011 - 03:13 .


#2
capn233

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I thought that it was a logical conclusion based upon what she says, and what her proxy on Ilium tells you.

"But we know you seek those who soured the note of our mothers..."

#3
spartacusthegod

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I don't believe the Rachni were indoctrinated, to be precise, but they were absolutely influenced.

I've noticed that the Reapers tend to go and try to control beings of a hive-mind nature. The Collectors, they all get controlled ultimately by the Collector General, and they are insect-like. Get a grip over the leader, and the rest fall into line. Same with the Rachni. All the smaller ones, the minions, essentially, all were raised and led by the queens. Influence the queens and control them, and every other Rachni will fall under your control. The Reapers managed to miss the queen that was still an egg though, and that queen is the one that (I firmly believe) will aid you in ME3. She heard what happened, recognized the threat, and she knows it's coming back. She's going to refuse to let that happen again to her or her children.

(However, on a side note, I am absolutely terrified of what Rachni Husks will look like. Those and the Krogan Husks are going to be utterly insane.)

"Sour yellow note" is a clear point towards the Reapers, most likely in particular would be Harbinger. The hologram of Sovereign in ME1, he was red. Every single time you saw Harbinger in ME2 though, if it was the hologram at the end cutscene of the suicide mission, or if you did Arrival after you finished the SM, he was YELLOW. Whenever he took over a Collector, the eyes turned YELLOW.

I'm inclined to believe Harbinger made the Rachni his first attempt at sweeping aside resistance, possibly making contact with them through Sovereign originally. When that failed, Sovereign was sent in. And when HE failed, the Collectors were used to try and brush aside resistance with the human Reaper and activate the Citadel relay. And then, when THAT grand scheme failed, Harby realized there's no other option. However long it takes, the Reapers will come in from dark space on their own power and rip everything apart themselves, without aid.

This is what myself and my close friend (who has logged probably close to a month's worth of time playing ME and ME2) have pieced together. We're trying not to speculate, but the evidence we're finding is pointing in this direction.

#4
AbsolutGrndZer0

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Yeah, see I think its obvious, but when I said so I was told "That's your opinion" and they refuse to allow any mention of the Reapers and the Rachni until either Mass Effect 3 or a developer plainly states REAPERS SENT RACHNI.. Apparently, the Rachni Queen's belief isn't enough evidence. In that case, I really think unless Harbinger says "Ya dude, I sent the Rachni and you killed them you bastards!!!" then the only proof will be a developer statement... Because if the Rachni Queen, who HEARD the sour note but was not "soured" isn't believed, who but a Repaer would be?

#5
d1sciple

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spartacusthegod wrote...

I don't believe the Rachni were indoctrinated, to be precise, but they were absolutely influenced.

I've noticed that the Reapers tend to go and try to control beings of a hive-mind nature. The Collectors, they all get controlled ultimately by the Collector General, and they are insect-like. Get a grip over the leader, and the rest fall into line. Same with the Rachni. All the smaller ones, the minions, essentially, all were raised and led by the queens. Influence the queens and control them, and every other Rachni will fall under your control. The Reapers managed to miss the queen that was still an egg though, and that queen is the one that (I firmly believe) will aid you in ME3. She heard what happened, recognized the threat, and she knows it's coming back. She's going to refuse to let that happen again to her or her children.

(However, on a side note, I am absolutely terrified of what Rachni Husks will look like. Those and the Krogan Husks are going to be utterly insane.)

"Sour yellow note" is a clear point towards the Reapers, most likely in particular would be Harbinger. The hologram of Sovereign in ME1, he was red. Every single time you saw Harbinger in ME2 though, if it was the hologram at the end cutscene of the suicide mission, or if you did Arrival after you finished the SM, he was YELLOW. Whenever he took over a Collector, the eyes turned YELLOW.

I'm inclined to believe Harbinger made the Rachni his first attempt at sweeping aside resistance, possibly making contact with them through Sovereign originally. When that failed, Sovereign was sent in. And when HE failed, the Collectors were used to try and brush aside resistance with the human Reaper and activate the Citadel relay. And then, when THAT grand scheme failed, Harby realized there's no other option. However long it takes, the Reapers will come in from dark space on their own power and rip everything apart themselves, without aid.

This is what myself and my close friend (who has logged probably close to a month's worth of time playing ME and ME2) have pieced together. We're trying not to speculate, but the evidence we're finding is pointing in this direction.



need to clear up a few points here.

firstly the collectors were not used because they operated under a hive mind, you are right about the ease of control under those circumstances but incorrect as to the collectors origins and purpose. the collectors are genetically mutated protheans and the protheans were not hive-minded, the reapers chose to create them that way specifically, most logically for the reason you stated.

we have no proof whatsoever that harbinger is anything more than the collectors controller, there's nothing to say it is anything more than that and nothing to suggest the reapers even operate under that type of structure. we also know that the reapers don't care about resistance, that was not the collectors purpose. their purpose was to
assist with the next step toward the reapers ascension, they were never tasked with quelling resistance or any such thing.

saren was used unsuccessfully by sovereign to activate the citadel relay, not the collectors. they are tasked with experimenting on certain species towards some goal associated with the legend of the reapers origins and the 'beings of light' legends.

i don't think the rachni were indoctrinated at all, it wouldn't make sense for the reapers to attempt to wipe out their next 'harvest', but we do have the point of the queen hinting at some sort of interference. what that interference is and who by is up in the air but we do know a couple of things. firstly it makes no sense whatsoever to wipe out your future harvest. it also makes no sense whatsoever to have more than one avatar wandering around the galaxy and taken that the collectors are this cycles avatar i can't see what indoctrinated rachni could bring to the table except for the potential destruction of your next harvest. it is possible through collector, not reaper, interference the rachni were unleashed on the galaxy as we know they have been experimenting on various species for the last 50,000 years.

as for the OP's original concern any connection between the rachni and reapers is complete guesswork and there is no logical association there, which is the why the wiki is so against the suggestion.

Modifié par d1sciple, 10 septembre 2011 - 01:19 .


#6
capn233

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d1sciple wrote...
i don't think the rachni were indoctrinated at all, it wouldn't make sense for the reapers to attempt to wipe out their next 'harvest', but we do have the point of the queen hinting at some sort of interference. what that interference is and who by is up in the air but we do know a couple of things. firstly it makes no sense whatsoever to wipe out your future harvest. it also makes no sense whatsoever to have more than one avatar wandering around the galaxy and taken that the collectors are this cycles avatar i can't see what indoctrinated rachni could bring to the table except for the potential destruction of your next harvest. it is possible through collector, not reaper, interference the rachni were unleashed on the galaxy as we know they have been experimenting on various species for the last 50,000 years.

A couple of things...

First we do not know when the Reapers actually wanted to begin the current cycle.  The Reapers would not have even known anything was amiss with the Keepers until they tried.  Perhaps it was only a generation after the Asari found the Citadel.  No way to know.

Second, how many species the Reapers interested in per cycle.  We do not know much about previous cycles, the most we know is about the Prothean cycle.  There was only one dominant species in that cycle, who incidentally were not suited to ascension due to their odd-ball genetics.  The sub-point is also how many species are advanced space-faring per cycle on average.  Perhaps this cycle is highly irregular.  I think that is likely to be the case with many advanced races.

We do not know how many individuals the Reapers actually "harvest" versus simply destroy when they arrive to wipe out advanced organic life.  It is likely that they are simply killing the majority of them, turning some into husks for labor, and potentially ascending others.

The cycle the Reapers use is likely scheduled such that a race does not develop further technologically than the Reapers desire.  That would be logical as if a species grew too powerful they might end up being difficult to defeat.  Although the Protheans were ultimately defeated, the Reapers likely gave them too much time to develop, as they were able to get a prototype mass relay working (the Conduit), which then allowed them to modify the Citadel / Keepers after the Reapers had retreated to dark space.

Given the above, the Reapers were likely using the Rachni either to test the strength of the other species to find a dominant one, or perhaps it was simply meant as a balance of power strategy to prevent the Citadel alliance from becoming too powerful.  If the Reapers were controlling the Rachni, they would not end up destroying the whole harvest anyway as they could stop their attacks whenever.  They would be in control afterall.  Alternatively, if the Reapers had figured out that the Citadel / Keepers were not responding to their signal, the Rachni could have been used with the goal of taking the station so that they could then initiate the cycle.

as for the OP's original concern any connection between the rachni and reapers is complete guesswork and there is no logical association there, which is the why the wiki is so against the suggestion.

Most everything is conjecture at this point.   There is still much data that are missing from the games / novels.  However, going with the main theme of the first Mass Effect, it is likely that the evil man behind the curtain controlling the Rachni was in fact a Reaper (which one, who knows) given that they were being set up as the main evil villain.  To pull out another faction from thin air would be weak, IMO, but is potentially an option for the writers.

Honestly, I would hypothesize that the way it will play out is that the key Reaper mistake was letting the Protheans advance too far.  That allowed the sabotage of the Keepers / Citadel which extended the current cycle.  We also know that the Protheans messed with the cultural evolution of the Hanar at the least.  We know they were also at minimum studying primitive man.  Perhaps they were going further and manipulating the evolution of primitive species to "fast track" them to advanced species.  That would ultimately explain why there ended up being so many advanced species in one cycle.

Or you could assume that the queen lied.  That idea at least isn't as ridiculous as thinking Vigil lied and was working for the Reapers :)

Modifié par capn233, 10 septembre 2011 - 04:59 .


#7
d1sciple

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capn233 wrote...

d1sciple wrote...
i don't think the rachni were indoctrinated at all, it wouldn't make sense for the reapers to attempt to wipe out their next 'harvest', but we do have the point of the queen hinting at some sort of interference. what that interference is and who by is up in the air but we do know a couple of things. firstly it makes no sense whatsoever to wipe out your future harvest. it also makes no sense whatsoever to have more than one avatar wandering around the galaxy and taken that the collectors are this cycles avatar i can't see what indoctrinated rachni could bring to the table except for the potential destruction of your next harvest. it is possible through collector, not reaper, interference the rachni were unleashed on the galaxy as we know they have been experimenting on various species for the last 50,000 years.

A couple of things...

First we do not know when the Reapers actually wanted to begin the current cycle.  The Reapers would not have even known anything was amiss with the Keepers until they tried.  Perhaps it was only a generation after the Asari found the Citadel.  No way to know.

Second, how many species the Reapers interested in per cycle.  We do not know much about previous cycles, the most we know is about the Prothean cycle.  There was only one dominant species in that cycle, who incidentally were not suited to ascension due to their odd-ball genetics.  The sub-point is also how many species are advanced space-faring per cycle on average.  Perhaps this cycle is highly irregular.  I think that is likely to be the case with many advanced races.

We do not know how many individuals the Reapers actually "harvest" versus simply destroy when they arrive to wipe out advanced organic life.  It is likely that they are simply killing the majority of them, turning some into husks for labor, and potentially ascending others.

The cycle the Reapers use is likely scheduled such that a race does not develop further technologically than the Reapers desire.  That would be logical as if a species grew too powerful they might end up being difficult to defeat.  Although the Protheans were ultimately defeated, the Reapers likely gave them too much time to develop, as they were able to get a prototype mass relay working (the Conduit), which then allowed them to modify the Citadel / Keepers after the Reapers had retreated to dark space.

Given the above, the Reapers were likely using the Rachni either to test the strength of the other species to find a dominant one, or perhaps it was simply meant as a balance of power strategy to prevent the Citadel alliance from becoming too powerful.  If the Reapers were controlling the Rachni, they would not end up destroying the whole harvest anyway as they could stop their attacks whenever.  They would be in control afterall.  Alternatively, if the Reapers had figured out that the Citadel / Keepers were not responding to their signal, the Rachni could have been used with the goal of taking the station so that they could then initiate the cycle.

as for the OP's original concern any connection between the rachni and reapers is complete guesswork and there is no logical association there, which is the why the wiki is so against the suggestion.

Most everything is conjecture at this point.   There is still much data that are missing from the games / novels.  However, going with the main theme of the first Mass Effect, it is likely that the evil man behind the curtain controlling the Rachni was in fact a Reaper (which one, who knows) given that they were being set up as the main evil villain.  To pull out another faction from thin air would be weak, IMO, but is potentially an option for the writers.

Honestly, I would hypothesize that the way it will play out is that the key Reaper mistake was letting the Protheans advance too far.  That allowed the sabotage of the Keepers / Citadel which extended the current cycle.  We also know that the Protheans messed with the cultural evolution of the Hanar at the least.  We know they were also at minimum studying primitive man.  Perhaps they were going further and manipulating the evolution of primitive species to "fast track" them to advanced species.  That would ultimately explain why there ended up being so many advanced species in one cycle.

Or you could assume that the queen lied.  That idea at least isn't as ridiculous as thinking Vigil lied and was working for the Reapers :)



first and foremost we know from the keepers mission in ME1 and the subsequent message you recive in ME2 if succesful the exact timeline of each and every harvest by the reapers as it is genetically encoded into the keepers dna and chorban gives the figure as 50,000 years or so. chorban also tells you exactly when the current cycle was supposed to start in both ME1 and ME2, which is now. he also tells us that the keepers were engineered by the same people that created sovereign, not by the reapers themselves, something most people forget.

it is irrelvant how many species the reapers are interested in and the numbers they destroy/use is also irrelevant. they harvest, they create tools. if they fail in thier assension they repeat the cycle.

nothing that the protheans did was of any use, they failed miserably. the relay counts for nothing and is no indication of anything let alone hinting that they may have been super advanced. the only thing they succeeded in achieving is a disruption of the reaper/keeper signal, which achieved little this cycle except to give us a little more time before the reapers come.
they obivously interfered with other species in the galaxy though we don't know why and taken that virgil never mentioned any of the galaxies races as being manipulted by the protheans to stamp down the reaper menace! we can logically say that any interference was only scientifically based research.

as we've seen rachni don't need omnipotent gods manipulating them to become indoctrinated, saren and cerberus had their own rambuncious lot without any help from the reapers. it's not too far fetched to say some race had a grudge, took some rachni and made an army. it is a little far fetched to say that the most powerful beings in the universe, responsible for a 50,00 year cycle of genocide that they've been perpetrating for millions of years suddenly had fears about this particular cycle and needed to do some testing, therefore taking a new race and enslaving them and unleashing them on the galaxy, potentially destroying their next harvest. all of this work while the last race they enslaved just chill in their hive.

#8
capn233

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The cycle is approximately every 50,000 years. There is nothing in the game that states that ME1 takes place exactly 50,000yrs after the last cycle. There is too much uncertainty to assume that ME1 was exactly when they sent the signal. Additionally, Chorban's email tells you exactly zero new information. He does not have a clear indication of when the signal was supposed to be sent.

"And what's more, based on my genetic readings, they're supposed to react to...something, some signal or something...about every 50 thousand years. And it's scheduled to go off sometime around now."

What is the uncertainty in "sometime around now" when applied to 50,000yr cycles over millions of years?

Logically they must have tried to activate the Citadel before the events of ME1. Sovereign did not recruit Saren or the Geth at the drop of a hat. Exactly how long before ME1 is not clear.

Chorban is also not the foremost authority on anything. In fact from his statements in the email it is likely he does not understand that Sovereign is a sentient machine rather than an old advanced starship. Chorban is a random scientist that found some interesting anomalies about the Keepers, but was not privy to any information about the Reapers during the events of ME1. Nor would he likely be able to learn about them after as this was covered up by the Council and the Alliance.

You are asserting that there is no way the Rachni would have been useful to the Reapers. I suggested several ways that they could be. You are quite dismissive even though there is no specific data about the species in each cycle or what the Reapers even do with the organics. They have tried to build 1 Reaper from Humans. They could not use the Protheans to make Reapers and turned them into Collectors. They turned some Protheans into slaves during the cycle to strip their planets. That is the extent of the hard data.

There is no evidence of what the Reapers' goal with a cycle actually is, their motives are completely unknown. The game infers that why the Protheans failed to be compatible was their quad-strand DNA structure, which was unique. Perhaps they were the first race wholy unsuitable for ascension, not the last one in a long line of poor candidates as you are implying.  There is no way to know.  Stating that the Reapers only have a new cycle when the previous ones failed is your assertion, not an in game fact.

nothing the protheans did was of any use

That takes the cake as the most ridiculous statement. Without the Ilos Research Facility they would not have had a prototype mass relay linking to the Citadel. Or a team that could figure out how to modify the Keepers / Citadel. Without their tampering the Citadel would have already been activated and the Reapers would have poured in, destroyed the Council and the Fleet, disable the relay network, and proceeded to victory. The entire story line would not even happen.

As for my speculation about Prothean activities, I never stated their goal was to beat the Reapers by doing so. Their motives are not elucidated. In addition, as their manipulation / research was before they learned of the Reapers, logically they would not have been doing so to prepare against them.

Stating anything Saren did was separate from Reaper influence is silly. Benezia only became loyal to him because she was indoctrinated. The Geth only followed him because they were loyal to Sovereign. Even so, this is partly irrelevant because Saren's use for the queen was to find the Mu relay. Binary Helix itself was trying to create an army, not through influence over the queen, but by simply breeding the soldiers. BH didn't even know they had a queen until they grew her. They subsequently took all the rachni soldiers away from the queen which made them crazed and is the reason you must destroy them.

The rachni you encountered off Noveria were all due to Cerberus. Cerberus was experimenting with the Rachni as shock troops. They were not controllable the same reason the Rachni on Noveria were not controllable. This is in stark contrast to the events of the Rachni war in which the Rachni were controlled indirectly through their queen, who exerted total control over them.

The Collectors are clearly not meant for direct combat against the galaxy. They are too few in numbers, and they haven't gone into a standup fight against anyone but the SR1 and Shepard. Even their colony attacks are with little resistance as the swarms immobilize everyone. It is pretty clear that they are used for intelligence gathering and experimentation. The human reaper likely being the most recent and grand of their experiments.

Vigil states there have been many agents of the Reapers over the years. The queen states you are chasing the one that enslaved her people.

And again if the Reapers controlled the Rachni they aren't unleashing an uncontrolled force against their harvest. Controlled means controlled. You actually control the Rachni if you can control the queen. That is directly opposed to the situation with Binary Helix (and by extension Cerberus) which had uncontrolled rachni soldiers. They could have easily accomplished whatever goal without destroying the harvest.

Saying the Rachni absolutely were not controlled by the Reapers during the Rachni War has no more evidence for it than the idea that their queen had been controlled by them. If anything the "other random boogie-man" hypothesis has slightly less evidence.

Modifié par capn233, 10 septembre 2011 - 03:20 .


#9
AbsolutGrndZer0

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Exactly... You are chasing the one who soured her people, sour YELLOW note... Harbinger is yellow...

As for the "ones who created Sovereign" as was mentioned by last poster, Chorban didn't know that Sovereign was a sentient being.. He thought he was just a spaceship... so he would not know to say "Sovereign did it" even if he did... Sovereign creators did it, because Sovereign, as an advanced starship, could not have done it. Except, that he did, cause he's not just a fancy starship, he's a Reaper.

#10
Get Magna Carter

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Hard to say, in some ways it does seem unlikely but not impossible
Reapers indoctrinate those "on board" Rachni queens are well protected on their worlds - Sovereign would have a hard time getting one on board to indoctrinate them.

It is possible that Sovereign found a way to interfere with their communications exploiting the absolute loyalty.
Ultimately, we don't know enough (yet) for a definite answer

#11
AbsolutGrndZer0

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Get Magna Carter wrote...

Hard to say, in some ways it does seem unlikely but not impossible
Reapers indoctrinate those "on board" Rachni queens are well protected on their worlds - Sovereign would have a hard time getting one on board to indoctrinate them.

It is possible that Sovereign found a way to interfere with their communications exploiting the absolute loyalty.
Ultimately, we don't know enough (yet) for a definite answer


Well, odds are it wasn't Soveriegn but Harbinger.  But yeah, I mean sound is their thing, and the signal the Reapers have could be sonic-baed.  THing is, you would have to only indoctrinate one Queen, then she'd corrupt all the others and all the other Rachni probably.

But, I guess since no developers have chimed in, we won't really know until ME3 or maybe not even then.

#12
d1sciple

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you are putting way too much in a simple design choice, it's like looking at a rock and saying that because it's grey it should be able to make grey paint, ludicrous. just because the collector generals eyes were yellow when under the control of harbinger you've connected that with the rachni queens statement of sour yellow notes, completely ignoring every other possible connection and that is why the wiki told you what they told you. it's not run by a bunch of idiots, it's run by a huge community completely obsessed with ME and guided by the devs, yet you still think they are wrong. this whole thread is a statement against the wiki and it's admin, how pretentious and arrogant is that? if you want the devs opinion it's in the wiki, you just don't like the answer.

as for any other rebuttal you answered it yourself cap, the proof you need that ME1 takes place during the signal for the next cycle comes from everywhere. 50,000 years, it's repeated over and over, sometime around now, not next year or last year, virgil tells you it's now, sovereign tells you it's now, saren tells you it's now, now not tomorrow or next month or yesterday but NOW. the logic that has led you to believing there's some uncertainty about that is the same logic that has you arguing against the wikis statements.
there is hard data putting sovereigns story into doubt, suggesting that the reapers were not the first and also suggesting their cycle is an experiment where they are trying to recreate something they lost, their motives are not completely unknown but are more than just guessed at in game and in the other media. have you played through arrival? there is a wealth of material in there, pretty strange way to lead into ME3 and not very good as far as story but still pretty full of reaper info, maybe you should check it out.
unfortunately your most ridiculous statement is that saren used the rachni to find the mu, that was the thorian actually. interesting side fact is that cerberus own exo geni along with saren, hmm. the only use for the rachni was as an army for cerberus and benezia was sent to quash the possible rachni rebellion.
as for the poor protheans. they failed. the reapers are coming and they cannot be stopped. the protheans never found out how to stop them, only delay, and no one else has any idea how. even if you didn't destroy the collector base you will still not be getting any info that can help you from it, TIM will keep it all for himself and his own plans. there is no more the protheans can do. no more new info, no more help, virgils info on the reapers was the extant of it, hence a fail, as that info has not stopped the reapers from landing on earth and raping the place. i fail to see how the protheans have succeeded when sheps homeworld is being destroyed as we speak.

also i doubt any devs will bother with this thread, seriously.

#13
spartacusthegod

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d1sciple wrote...

you are putting way too much in a simple design choice, it's like looking at a rock and saying that because it's grey it should be able to make grey paint, ludicrous. just because the collector generals eyes were yellow when under the control of harbinger you've connected that with the rachni queens statement of sour yellow notes, completely ignoring every other possible connection and that is why the wiki told you what they told you. it's not run by a bunch of idiots, it's run by a huge community completely obsessed with ME and guided by the devs, yet you still think they are wrong. this whole thread is a statement against the wiki and it's admin, how pretentious and arrogant is that? if you want the devs opinion it's in the wiki, you just don't like the answer.

*snipped*

also i doubt any devs will bother with this thread, seriously.


Two things here.  First off, this thread is for discussion of a possible scenario.  It may or may not be true, but either way, we're allowed to talk about it.  Calling our ideas "ludicrous" simply because we make associations based on similar things between two objects (the yellow relation) is not only rude, but is targeted at US.  Not at our ideas, when you insult an idea you insult the person behind it as well.

Calling us pretentious and arrogant?  Really now?  Big words from someone who doesn't seem to know how to capitalize the beginning of their sentence, or how to treat people with respect, it seems.

You came in and stated your ideas, and explained them.  Members of the community continued the discussion, talking about the POSSIBILITY of the Reapers' influence over the Rachni.  You butting in and saying that stuff right there is incredibly arrogant as well.  You don't need to overly insult us and say "we don't like the answer" and act like you're all high and mighty.  This is a forum, made for discussion.  We're perfectly allowed to talk here about possibilities of things, and you don't need to be a ****head and insult US for talking about it.

Please, with all due respect, don't post that sort of thing and ruin a good discussion.  People have made some good points here and I would like to keep reading them myself.  I already put in my two cents, but I'm very curious about everyone else's ideas.

Keep up the good work guys!  Ignore this here "d1sciple" guy if he keeps throwing flame at you, some of these theories are incredibly intriguing.:happy:

Modifié par spartacusthegod, 11 septembre 2011 - 04:45 .


#14
spartacusthegod

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d1sciple wrote...

unfortunately your most ridiculous statement is that saren used the rachni to find the mu, that was the thorian actually. interesting side fact is that cerberus own exo geni along with saren, hmm. the only use for the rachni was as an army for cerberus and benezia was sent to quash the possible rachni rebellion.
as for the poor protheans. they failed. the reapers are coming and they cannot be stopped. the protheans never found out how to stop them, only delay, and no one else has any idea how. even if you didn't destroy the collector base you will still not be getting any info that can help you from it, TIM will keep it all for himself and his own plans. there is no more the protheans can do. no more new info, no more help, virgils info on the reapers was the extant of it, hence a fail, as that info has not stopped the reapers from landing on earth and raping the place. i fail to see how the protheans have succeeded when sheps homeworld is being destroyed as we speak.


Sadly, you are entirely incorrect on the first statement here.  Saren, through Benezia, pried the location of the Mu Relay from the Rachni Queen's mind.  The Thorian was the one who gave him the CIPHER.  And you say WE'RE ridiculous.  Please get your facts straight before you insult us more.

You say the Protheans failed.  Yes, they did, but not entirely.  They couldn't stop the Reapers, but with their interruption of the signal to the Keepers, they put enough of a stutter in the Reapers' plans so that we could have a fighting chance.  If the Protheans had failed, there would be no Mass Effect 2 or 3.  The first one wouldn't have even gone on for too long, as soon as Sovereign sent the signal the game would have ended.  The Protheans failed in that they couldn't stop the Reapers themselves, but they absolutely did succeed in the fact that they gave us a little bit more time, and they forced the Reapers' first target away from the Citadel, the center of the entire civilized space, to Earth, the center of only one race's main civilization.  They made the Reapers change their first target, which gives us time to unite the rest of the Galaxy and push them back.  The Protheans absolutely did succeed in changing the pattern, and they gave us the chance to break it entirely.

#15
d1sciple

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spartacusthegod wrote...

Two things here.  First off, this thread is for discussion of a possible scenario.  It may or may not be true, but either way, we're allowed to talk about it.  Calling our ideas "ludicrous" simply because we make associations based on similar things between two objects (the yellow relation) is not only rude, but is targeted at US.  Not at our ideas, when you insult an idea you insult the person behind it as well.

Calling us pretentious and arrogant?  Really now?  Big words from someone who doesn't seem to know how to capitalize the beginning of their sentence, or how to treat people with respect, it seems.

You came in and stated your ideas, and explained them.  Members of the community continued the discussion, talking about the POSSIBILITY of the Reapers' influence over the Rachni.  You butting in and saying that stuff right there is incredibly arrogant as well.  You don't need to overly insult us and say "we don't like the answer" and act like you're all high and mighty.  This is a forum, made for discussion.  We're perfectly allowed to talk here about possibilities of things, and you don't need to be a ****head and insult US for talking about it.

Please, with all due respect, don't post that sort of thing and ruin a good discussion.  People have made some good points here and I would like to keep reading them myself.  I already put in my two cents, but I'm very curious about everyone else's ideas.

Keep up the good work guys!  Ignore this here "d1sciple" guy if he keeps throwing flame at you, some of these theories are incredibly intriguing.:happy:


the op totally dismissing the wiki because they think they are right and specifically asking for a dev to step in and clear it all up, that mate, is arrogance. look it up in a dictionary, because they are unhappy with the information and believe they are right they are challenging the wiki, arrogance. so yes, the op is acting arrogantly and has displayed that through their comments. no apologies.
anyone in support of the attack against the wiki is also acting arrogantly as they are taking the stand that what they believe is right, i struggle to find where that association is wrong. i'm not a wiki fanboy or believe them to be god on all matters mass effect, but to be so dismissive of the huge undertaking and upkeep the wiki is and has been is just ridiculous and arrogant, this issue has been worked over by them for years, not days or weeks. again no apologies.
as for comments about grammer, who gives a ****? i don't use alot of paragraphs and i don't use capitals because i speed read and the distraction of varying sizes and shapes slows me down considerably, which is incredibly frustrating.
as for respect if i think someone is wrong i'll tell them, i'm not some sugar coating beat around the bush ****, if you can't handle that then don't comment. you're putting yourself out there you have to accept that others might not feel the same way. i think i'm right, you think you're right, you don't have to have a cry about it. we keep debating, it gets heated, that's the nature of gaining understanding. what are you atempting to warn against? healthy debate? i'm not atacking your person or your family or beliefs, don't blow this out of proportion here, i'm atacking an opinion that i think is arrogant and ludacris because of what i believe is a mountain of evidence against it. seriously again, if you can't handle that then why don't YOU **** off? that kind of whiney behavior is what ruins forums. i say you're wrong, we talk about why, it doesn't have to end up with some self righteous ****wit making statements like 'you can't capitalize', 'you're insulting us' and 'ignore this guy'. seriously, get over it. i'm also interested in this subject because though i don't believe they were indoctrinated i believe something else happened and i'm keen to discuss that, i'm not here to troll or flame i'm here to question and find some new ideas and i don't accept that i've got some sort of social block that says i'm not aloud to tell someone i think they're being ridiculous, go have a cry to the mods about it.

#16
khevan

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The only evidence of rachni indoctrination is a (very) vague statement from a being who cannot truly be relied upon, in my opinion. "A sour yellow note" could mean any number of things, although indoctrination is certainly a valid theory. Even though it is a valid theory, it cannot be more than that without proof, and the queen who made that statement was in a position in which she could very easily resort to lies to save her life.

I personally don't trust the queen, and kill her off in most of my playthroughs, but no matter how you feel about that particular decision, the fact remains that there's not enough information to say for certain whether the rachni during the Wars were indoctrinated or not.

My belief is that it doesn't really matter one way or the other. If the rachni were indoctrinated (as an entire species) than I feel that they're potentially more of a liability against the reapers than not, as they could easily be turned against us. If they weren't indoctrinated, that means that they, as a species, are entirely too aggressive and dangerous for me to allow them to rebuild.

There was a huge discussion about this topic on the old Bioware boards, before ME2 came out. I'd rather not get involved in that level of discussion again, so I'm pretty much done saying what I've come to say. I won't say that they weren't indoctrinated, but I cannot say that they truly were, either.

#17
AbsolutGrndZer0

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Really? So the wiki is arrogant too cause they think they are right and they've said until a dev steps in a clears it up, they won't change their mind. SO, if I am arrogant, so are they. Now, I personally don't think they are nor am I. My asking, if I get an answer, will improve the wiki's information. If I am wrong, then they can put the dev quotes in the talk page to show everyone the dev's statements as proof... If I am right then they can put it on the indoctrination page and show proof. Either way, THE WIKI IS IMPROVED.

Also, there is a HUGE difference between disagreeing with someone's opinion and saying it's arrogant and "ludacris".  You say you are not attacking our beliefs, but you are.  If you don't see it that way, well, I won't be rude.

Modifié par AbsolutGrndZer0, 11 septembre 2011 - 04:46 .


#18
Nizzemancer

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AbsolutGrndZer0 wrote...

So, on the Wikia page there is a caveat on the talk page about Indoctrination that says "STOP ADDING THE RACHNI" and really... to me and many others the Rachni Queen plainly makes it clear that they were indoctrinated.  Just because she isn't 100% sure doesn't mean we can't look at her description and see it.

"Sour yellow tone from outer space" What else could that be but The Reapers?


But, since the Rachni Queen doesn't say "I, the Rachni Queen, being of sound mind and body am 100% certain in my mind  that the Reapers indoctrinated my sisters." then... there will always be doubt for some people, and the powers that be at the wikia page refuse to allow Rachni to be added.  And, I think even if she said that, some would still think she MIGHT be wrong.

So.. I ask here because I am hoping a Developer can chime in and let us know with a quote one way or another.  

Were the Rachni indoctrinated?

My fellow players are welcome to give "opinions" but since my post is to find out the "truth" for the wikia page, that means only a quote from a Bioware person the Wikia would trust will suffice.


Thing is that it's a Wikia, and on wikias you need to post undisputable facts, there is no undisputable proof that the sour yellow note is reaper indoctrination yet so you will just have to wait for ME3 to be released.

#19
AbsolutGrndZer0

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Nizzemancer wrote...

AbsolutGrndZer0 wrote...

So, on the Wikia page there is a caveat on the talk page about Indoctrination that says "STOP ADDING THE RACHNI" and really... to me and many others the Rachni Queen plainly makes it clear that they were indoctrinated.  Just because she isn't 100% sure doesn't mean we can't look at her description and see it.

"Sour yellow tone from outer space" What else could that be but The Reapers?


But, since the Rachni Queen doesn't say "I, the Rachni Queen, being of sound mind and body am 100% certain in my mind  that the Reapers indoctrinated my sisters." then... there will always be doubt for some people, and the powers that be at the wikia page refuse to allow Rachni to be added.  And, I think even if she said that, some would still think she MIGHT be wrong.

So.. I ask here because I am hoping a Developer can chime in and let us know with a quote one way or another.  

Were the Rachni indoctrinated?

My fellow players are welcome to give "opinions" but since my post is to find out the "truth" for the wikia page, that means only a quote from a Bioware person the Wikia would trust will suffice.


Thing is that it's a Wikia, and on wikias you need to post undisputable facts, there is no undisputable proof that the sour yellow note is reaper indoctrination yet so you will just have to wait for ME3 to be released.


A dev quote would be indisputable proof.  Now, they may choose not to answer this thread, and probably won't... but that still doesn't mean we can't discuss it here rationally.  I just mainly mentioned the wiki as the reason I am posting this discussion and on the OFF CHANCE HOPE that a dev might chime in, even though I don't think they will.

#20
capn233

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There isn't too much use in getting agitated. There isn't much left to say anyway.

Simply put, and reiterated, I concede that it is possible the queen during the Rachni War was not indoctrinated. This is because there is too little information to prove she was at this point. I would also state that the lack of evidence is the exact same reason that stating she absolutely wasn't indoctrinated is not any more defensible. Honestly both are viable hypothesis that are not contradicted in game or novel. I did not dismiss the idea that she was not indoctrinated, but rather the idea that it was absolutely proven in game and that there is no way that she could have been.

I think that she was indoctrinated. I agree with the OP that whoever is in charge of the wikia is mainly just being narrow minded as they are not allowing an edit that is supported by some evidence and themes from the games. However, I would not suggest that the wikia should be changed to state that the queen was irrefutably indoctrinated. That would be the same mistake, but made from the other point of view.

#21
1upD

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 Doesn't the Rachni proxy on Illium pretty much flat out say that the Rachni were being influenced by an outside force during the Rachni wars? Does someone have the dialogue from that conversation? Because if it's not the Reapers...Well, it's the Reapers. I doubt they're setting up Mass Effect 4 with one conversation that half of the players got to see.

#22
AbsolutGrndZer0

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1upD wrote...

 Doesn't the Rachni proxy on Illium pretty much flat out say that the Rachni were being influenced by an outside force during the Rachni wars? Does someone have the dialogue from that conversation? Because if it's not the Reapers...Well, it's the Reapers. I doubt they're setting up Mass Effect 4 with one conversation that half of the players got to see.


I don't remember it anymore, but yeah.  That's what got me to start this whole thread because when I said based on what she said it makes it pretty obvious the Reapers did it because who else is there that could have, they said that's my opinion, not fact.  The Rachni Queen believes it, but she could be wrong is pretty much their reasoning.

#23
khevan

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^ Pretty much this.

The only things pointing towards rachni indoctrination during the Rachni Wars is the belief of one creature, the Rachni Queen. Now, knowing what I know about how Bioware works, I'm of the belief that the rachni probably were indoctrinated, because of the subtle clues we've been given, but that's meta-game knowledge. I like to RP my Shepards, and all of my justifications for in-game actions are based on in-game knowledge. My Shepards have no clue who Bioware is, so cannot have an opinion based on that.

In either case, my point from above still stands (being my opinion and all...). If they were indoctrinated, the rachni are arguably more of a liability than an asset vs. the Reapers, given their proclivity to being indoctrinated. If they weren't indoctrinated, than they're basically an over-aggressive, entirely too dangerous race, and they'll likely cause a second Rachni War sometime in the future. Either possibility bodes ill for the Queen on Noveria.

#24
capn233

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The quote in my first post in this thread was from the Rachni queen's message that was delivered on Ilium:

"But we know you seek those who soured the note of our mothers..."

Talk about the outside influence from the encounter with her on Noveria:

"I do not know what happened in the war. We only heard discordance. Songs the color of oily shadows."

"A tone from space hushed one voice after another. It forced the singers to resonate with its own sour yellow note."

#25
eternalnightmare13

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capn233 wrote...

I thought that it was a logical conclusion based upon what she says, and what her proxy on Ilium tells you.

"But we know you seek those who soured the note of our mothers..."


Exactly.  Plus, who's to say that the rachni didn't come into contact with something on par with the levithan of dis like the batarians did or object rho?