269 réponses à ce sujet

[jlb524]

whywhywhywhy wrote...
Doesn't count as a same sex relationship.  Asari can reproduce. Homosexuals can't.  Thus as I said before it's a Xenosexual relationship.

Sexuality isn't defined by reproductive potential (in our language).

If so, any infertile would be homosexual regardless of sexual desire and any couple with at least one infertile member would be a homosexual couple regardless of makeup.

Xilizhra wrote...

I admit to being highly amused by the kerfuffle that some people are making over this, as if somehow their own straight romance options were being removed. Or bringing up the Anders scenario like one badly played line of dialogue was some sort of hideous catastrophe.

It is.

At this point, I'm about okay with a toggle if:

1)  All LIs will then be open for an s/s romance.
2)  I get a heterosexual toggle.  No more FemShep sounding flirty with Jacob and Garrus!
3)  It will stop the whining.

Modifié par jlb524, 24 septembre 2011 - 02:52 .

[Xilizhra]

You know... logically speaking, if a relationship with an asari is "xenosexual" and not homosexual, there's really no grounds to complain about having a male Shepard romance Garrus.

At this point, I'm about okay with a toggle if:

1) All LIs will then be open for an s/s romance.

Ah, clever.

[whywhywhywhy]

jlb524 wrote...

whywhywhywhy wrote...
Doesn't count as a same sex relationship.  Asari can reproduce. Homosexuals can't.  Thus as I said before it's a Xenosexual relationship.

Sexuality isn't defined by reproductive potential (in our language).

If so, any infertile would be homosexual regardless of sexual desire and any couple with at least one infertile member would be a homosexual couple regardless of makeup.

This is where you'd be wrong.  That wouls simply make an infertile couple.

The discussion was SAME SEX relationships and how an Asari would be defined in a relationship.  A human cannot be the same gender as a monogender asexual alien race.  It isn't the same thing.  The poster I was responding to kept trying to ascribe the Asari with the equivilent of a human female because of the appearance of an Asari.  Taken in context you can clearly see the point I was making.

The Asari are their own gender and similiar in appearance to human females.  Two healthy fit human females cannot reproduce being of the same sex naturally.  While two healthy fit Asari can reproduce naturally thus an Asari cannot be placed in the same category of gender as a female which comes from a dual gender race.  It's the ability to reproduce and the role we play in it that define gender.

So we end up with Male, female and Asari(for simplicity) as genders.   Regardless of appearance Asari are not female in the traditional sense of a two gender based race female.  Thus any Asari relationship is Asari and +1 whatever gender the +1 might be.

[TheChris92]

Major Badass wrote...

By canon Shepard, I am referring to the Shepard the player considers canon: the one they've spent two long games playing as. Since my Sheperd in both games was straight, I don't like that he can suddenly end up in a gay romance just because of a few dialogue choices.

You specifically said in the OP that you consider Shepard being heterosexual as canon, thus you still believe that there is a canon Shepard. It's different from person to person. Why should these dialogue choices bother you, if you're not even planning on pursuing such a romance? 

[Xilizhra]

whywhywhywhy wrote...

jlb524 wrote...

whywhywhywhy wrote...
Doesn't count as a same sex relationship.  Asari can reproduce. Homosexuals can't.  Thus as I said before it's a Xenosexual relationship.

Sexuality isn't defined by reproductive potential (in our language).

If so, any infertile would be homosexual regardless of sexual desire and any couple with at least one infertile member would be a homosexual couple regardless of makeup.

This is where you'd be wrong.  That wouls simply make an infertile couple.

The discussion was SAME SEX relationships and how an Asari would be defined in a relationship.  A human cannot be the same gender as a monogender asexual alien race.  It isn't the same thing.  The poster I was responding to kept trying to ascribe the Asari with the equivilent of a human female because of the appearance of an Asari.  Taken in context you can clearly see the point I was making.

The Asari are their own gender and similiar in appearance to human females.  Two healthy fit human females cannot reproduce being of the same sex naturally.  While two healthy fit Asari can reproduce naturally thus an Asari cannot be placed in the same category of gender as a female which comes from a dual gender race.  It's the ability to reproduce and the role we play in it that define gender.

So we end up with Male, female and Asari(for simplicity) as genders.   Regardless of appearance Asari are not female in the traditional sense of a two gender based race female.  Thus any Asari relationship is Asari and +1 whatever gender the +1 might be.

Whether the relationship is actually homosexual is irrelevant. A female human attracted to an asari would have to have some capacity for being attracted to other women, given how many physical similarities they share. So while the relationship might not be technically homosexual, female Shepard there would have to be homosexual, bisexual, or maybe in possession of single target sexuality (which has nothing to do with them being asari).

[jlb524]

whywhywhywhy wrote...
Two healthy fit human females cannot reproduce being of the same sex naturally. 

I'm pretty sure their reproductive organs still work.

Just not with each other.  But both can use other means to become pregnant.

Nyoka wrote...

I've got a good idea.

Make all LIs bi shepardsexual (sorry).

*supports*

Though, they are already Shepardsexual to an extent, stopping just at gender for some reason (because ME2 was PG-13).

Modifié par jlb524, 24 septembre 2011 - 03:16 .

[whywhywhywhy]

Xilizhra wrote...
Whether the relationship is actually homosexual is irrelevant. A female human attracted to an asari would have to have some capacity for being attracted to other women, given how many physical similarities they share. So while the relationship might not be technically homosexual, female Shepard there would have to be homosexual, bisexual, or maybe in possession of single target sexuality (which has nothing to do with them being asari).

I understand what your trying to say, but a human female attracted to an Asari for whatever reason is still attracted to an alien thus Xenosexual relationship.  So instead of being homosexual the human is in fact Xenosexual.

[Xilizhra]

whywhywhywhy wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...
Whether the relationship is actually homosexual is irrelevant. A female human attracted to an asari would have to have some capacity for being attracted to other women, given how many physical similarities they share. So while the relationship might not be technically homosexual, female Shepard there would have to be homosexual, bisexual, or maybe in possession of single target sexuality (which has nothing to do with them being asari).

I understand what your trying to say, but a human female attracted to an Asari for whatever reason is still attracted to an alien thus Xenosexual relationship.  So instead of being homosexual the human is in fact Xenosexual.

So thusly, all male Shepards in a relationship with Tali, and female ones in a relationship with Garrus or Thane, are xenosexual and not heterosexual, with Tali, Garrus and Thane thus being xenosexual as well. Hence, allowing them to be romanced by both genders changes no one's sexuality at all and has no grounds to be brought up as an issue. Correct?

[TK514]

I can see a case for a something like this, but only because BioWare's competence when it comes to the dialog wheel is fairly inconsistent. The fact that the community even has a widely accepted phrase to describe accidentally triggering a romance plot should be proof enough that "just don't pursue the romance dialogs" is not a solution.

Personally, I'd prefer something similar, if less intrusive, to DA2's heart/broken heart indicator. Perhaps a small heart/broken heart of the same font and size as the dialog choice itself, as part of the dialog line, rather than the giant icon in the middle of the wheel. Or some other indicator on the dialog line itself. It certainly has the benefit of being much easier to effect at this late stage in development, being essentially a text find/replace function, than coding in new switches and toggles to character generation and every romance conversation in the game.

[Agamo45]

How about we just keep Shepard straight like he's always been.

[Xilizhra]

Agamo45 wrote...

How about we just keep Shepard straight like he's always been.

Because Bioware's not in the business of catering to bigotry.

[Agamo45]

Xilizhra wrote...

Agamo45 wrote...

How about we just keep Shepard straight like he's always been.

Because Bioware's not in the business of catering to bigotry.

But they are apparently in the business of catering to sodomites.

[Xilizhra]

Agamo45 wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Agamo45 wrote...

How about we just keep Shepard straight like he's always been.

Because Bioware's not in the business of catering to bigotry.

But they are apparently in the business of catering to sodomites.

The market's bigger. Also, it seems they possess some sort of sense of decency.

[Russalka]

Agamo45 wrote...
But they are apparently in the business of catering to sodomites.

Butthurt, much?

[Athayniel]

Russalka wrote...

Agamo45 wrote...
But they are apparently in the business of catering to sodomites.

Butthurt, much?

I see what you did there...

[whywhywhywhy]

jlb524 wrote...

whywhywhywhy wrote...
Two
healthy fit human females cannot reproduce being of the same sexnaturally. 

I'm pretty sure their reproductive organs still work. Just not with each other.  But both can use other means to become pregnant.

What I have bolded is exactly the point I was making, the capability of it happening Naturally, the Asari don't need other means.

Xilizhra wrote...
So thusly, all male Shepards in a relationship with Tali, and female ones in a relationship with Garrus or Thane, are xenosexual and not heterosexual, with Tali, Garrus and Thane thus being xenosexual as well.

All of the relationships described above are between 2 gender races, unlike the Asari.  Being 2 gendered the option exist to pair with the opposite gender, those are heterosexual pairings. Unlike the Asari I might add. The fact that it involves an alien of either gender makes it Xenosexual as well. 

Xilizhra wrote...
Hence, allowing them to be romanced by both genders changes no one's sexuality at all and has no grounds to be brought up as an issue. Correct?

Incorrect.

For the reasons I have stated above.  Your problem came when your example grouped heterosexual relationships as a play off of what I said about the Asari relationships. 

I maintain Asari are not the same as any known females of a race that contains traditional 2 gender male and female gender roles.  They are of single gender and a Relationship to an Asari to any other race outside their own is simply xenosexual.

edit:Formatting

Modifié par whywhywhywhy, 26 septembre 2011 - 09:40 .

[whywhywhywhy]

Xilizhra wrote...

Agamo45 wrote...

How about we just keep Shepard straight like he's always been.

Because Bioware's not in the business of catering to bigotry.

How is it bigotry to follow the trend of the first two games ?  s/s is in DA and noone one complains about that because it was always there.  With ME3 it's a blindsight and if asking for a simple switch makes me a bigot for some backwards world logic, I'd say something is wrong with your reasoning.

[Aradace]

Im just hoping the writers for the ME team arent as blatant about the s/s romances as the team for Dragon Age. Because if they are, we're going to have more situations like Anders and Fenris essentially throwing themselves at Male Hawke. It's not the reason I dont like using those characters, but it certainly doesnt help their cases either. Just saying.

[Athayniel]

whywhywhywhy wrote...

All of the relationships described above are between 2 gender races, unlike the Asari.  Being 2 gendered the option exist to pair with the opposite gender, those are heterosexual pairings. Unlike the Asari I might add. The fact that it involves an alien of either gender makes it Xenosexual as well. 

This right here is where your argument falls apart under the weight of your rationalising. If you admit the relationship between dudeShep and Tali or femShep and Garrus are both Xenosexual and Heterosexual then you cannot divest gender from the relationship between femShep and Liara.

Asari are not genderless. They have a gender which bears a striking resemblence to what humans would label as 'female'. From a biological standpoint, the asari share secondary sex characteristics, general aesthetics and reproductive roles with human females. For all intents and purposes the asari are an all-female species, regardless of how they would be classified scientifically.

For a human female to find the asari aesthetically attractive is because she is attracted to the features in the asari which are reminiscent of human women and those features are plentiful. I'm a guy and what I see is blue woman with rigid fleshy tentacles on her head. To argue the matter from some sort of technical classification angle is disingenuous at best.

You also cannot remove the opinion of the human partner from the equation when classifying the relationship. To do so removes their agency in the entire process.

And that's just rude.

[ElitePinecone]

whywhywhywhy wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Agamo45 wrote...

How about we just keep Shepard straight like he's always been.

Because Bioware's not in the business of catering to bigotry.

How is it bigotry to follow the trend of the first two games ?  s/s is in DA and noone one complains about that because it was always there.  With ME3 it's a blindsight and if asking for a simple switch makes me a bigot for some backwards world logic, I'd say something is wrong with your reasoning.

I don't quite understand your logic here. 

Would you be less offended by s/s content in Mass Effect if it had been there from the beginning? 

Would you not argue for a filter or switch or toggle if the first game featured same-sex relationships? 

Arguing for filtering content based on its novelty is baffling - you can turn on a TV, watch a movie or look out a window to see things ten times more explicit than anything Mass Effect's animators could come up with. It's hardly as if Biowar are pioneering the whole concept of homosexuality.

If you're against the idea because the character "wasn't gay/lesbian/bisexual" in previous games - says who? You? 

When did your character - or mine, or anybody's - say they were straight? They might've acted like it, if the player chose to. 

Capacity to perform an action doesn't imbue any quality on the person performing it. In the quirky quantum worlds of Mass Effect's continuity, many Shepards chose to have relationships with characters of the opposite gender. They, presumably, are straight or at least bisexual. But the ones that didn't? We have no idea. 

More to the point: if you're perpared to get up in arms - horses rearing, trumpets blaring, canons firing - about the sexuality of the protagonist in a fictional universe purely to stymie attempts to make the game more interesting and engaging for a proportion of its fanbase, I'd say your priorities are badly misplaced. No disrespect intended, but I'm quite confident that a filter to ensure Shepard is pristinely straight is just about the lowest thing on Bioware's list of 'things to do'. 

[catharsisboo]

Aradace wrote...

Im just hoping the writers for the ME team arent as blatant about the s/s romances as the team for Dragon Age. Because if they are, we're going to have more situations like Anders and Fenris essentially throwing themselves at Male Hawke. It's not the reason I dont like using those characters, but it certainly doesnt help their cases either. Just saying.

Whaaaa? Were we playing the same game? When does Fenris "throw himself" at Hawke?

Also, Anders hits on you once. ONCE. Take the rivalry points like a man, honestly...

[shepskisaac]

whywhywhywhy wrote...

I understand what your trying to say, but a human female attracted to an Asari for whatever reason is still attracted to an alien thus Xenosexual relationship.  So instead of being homosexual the human is in fact Xenosexual.

Dude, asari are human females painted blue ffs. If a woman paints her boobs blue does it make the men and women attracted to her xenosexual??? And frankly, what the hell does it matter? It's all about the players perspective and to EVERY single player alive, FemShep's relations with Asari are lesbian action. FACT.

And finally. You keep ignoring 100% human Kelly. You're gonna argue FemShep hooking up with Kelly is straight as well? The FACT is FemShep could be a lesbian (or bi) girl in ME1 & ME2 and evertybody knows it and no one was demanding a toggle because girls don't care and guys find it hot. But as soon as it's about two guys, some guys show of their insecurities and hypocrisy.

[FlyinElk212]

IsaacShep wrote...

And finally. You keep ignoring 100% human Kelly. You're gonna argue FemShep hooking up with Kelly is straight as well? The FACT is FemShep could be a lesbian (or bi) girl in ME1 & ME2 and evertybody knows it and no one was demanding a toggle because girls don't care and guys find it hot. But as soon as it's about two guys, some guys show of their insecurities and hypocrisy.

QFT.

The counterpoint to this idea, OP, it's not that Bioware's changing the canon of Shepard's character. They're simply trying to open up more options for Shepard. Just like in real life, a gay guy can come up to you even if you're straight and attempt to hit on you. And you can turn him down.

There will be a problem, however, if the devs handle the new S/S romances akin to the Jacob romance in ME2. If Male Shepard all of the sudden starts to take on a flirtatious tone with male squadmates, then yes. Bioware has changed the canon of all characters. Which kinda stinks, because it takes the situation out of the player's hands.