Ce sujet est fermé
Never, ever count on that.The FACT is FemShep could be a lesbian (or bi) girl in ME1 & ME2 and evertybody knows it and no one was demanding a toggle because girls don't care
catharsisboo wrote...
Aradace wrote...
Im just hoping the writers for the ME team arent as blatant about the s/s romances as the team for Dragon Age. Because if they are, we're going to have more situations like Anders and Fenris essentially throwing themselves at Male Hawke. It's not the reason I dont like using those characters, but it certainly doesnt help their cases either. Just saying.
Whaaaa? Were we playing the same game? When does Fenris "throw himself" at Hawke?
Also, Anders hits on you once. ONCE. Take the rivalry points like a man, honestly...
whywhywhywhy wrote...
What I have bolded is exactly the point I was making, the capability of it happening Naturally, the Asari don't need other means.jlb524 wrote...
whywhywhywhy wrote...
Two
healthy fit human females cannot reproduce being of the same sexnaturally.
I'm pretty sure their reproductive organs still work. Just not with each other. But both can use other means to become pregnant.
Aradace wrote...
Firstly, when someone flirts with me openly like Fenris and Anders do with Hawke, that constitutes "throwing themselves" at him IMO. Secondly, Fenris says, and I quote in a VERY flirtatious tone: "If I had known Anso would find me a man so capable, I might have asked him to look sooner." After you shoot him down the initial time, he doesnt do it again but still, doesnt help his case at all.
In the case of Anders, I also cut him off at the proverbial pass as well the first chance I get. Also, you no longer get the rivalry points if you use the "end romance" dialog option the first time it appears. You used to, but you dont anymore. Neither one of those instances were very subtle and could have been handled alot better. I.e. the companions (male or female) not flirting with Hawke to begin with and having it so the relationship(s) have to be initiated by Hawke him/herself. (Flirting included). Because Im sure that there are some gay folks as well as strait that get annoyed when they get hit on by "someone they're not interested in".
Best way to make all parties involved happy, is to make it so that flirting, as well as actively seeking a character as a LI can only be initiated by the PC. Just trying to be even minded is all.
jlb524 wrote...
Wait, hold the phone. Insemination isn't 'Natural'? You still have egg + sperm = baby.
I think what you mean is that the means of insemination differ from the typical.
happy_daiz wrote...
I didn't enjoy the way you had to let down Anders, regardless of if your PC was male or female. The whole thing was rather...crude. It could have certainly been handled better.
.
Modifié par Aradace, 26 septembre 2011 - 05:02 .
happy_daiz wrote...
I agree with you about making romances be initiated by the PC. I hate feeling like companions are throwing themselves at my character. Blah. Desperation is SO unattractive.
Cutlass Jack wrote...
happy_daiz wrote...
I agree with you about making romances be initiated by the PC. I hate feeling like companions are throwing themselves at my character. Blah. Desperation is SO unattractive.
Its so much worse when your PC does it. Bits of Kaidan and all of Jacob's 'flirtations' from Shep almost come off as sexual harrassment. So cringe inducing.
Cutlass Jack wrote...
happy_daiz wrote...
I agree with you about making romances be initiated by the PC. I hate feeling like companions are throwing themselves at my character. Blah. Desperation is SO unattractive.
Its so much worse when your PC does it. Bits of Kaidan and all of Jacob's 'flirtations' from Shep almost come off as sexual harrassment. So cringe inducing.
My argument doesn't fall apart it's solid, your reasoning is off. Your grouping the gender of 2 gender races with a single gender race based off appearance.Athayniel wrote...
This right here is where your argument falls apart under the weight of your rationalising. If you admit the relationship between dudeShep and Tali or femShep and Garrus are both Xenosexual and Heterosexual then you cannot divest gender from the relationship between femShep and Liara.
And that's exactly why you guys are wrong, your approaching this based off appearances which has nothing to do with a species gender. Asari are asexual, how can human females be the same ? It's simple they are not.Athayniel wrote...
Asari are not genderless. They have a gender which bears a striking resemblence to what humans would label as 'female'. From a biological standpoint, the asari share secondary sex characteristics, general aesthetics and reproductive roles with human females. For all intents and purposes the asari are an all-female species, regardless of how they would be classified scientifically.
To quote you "hey have a gender which bears a striking resemblence to whatAthayniel wrote...
For a human female to find the asari aesthetically attractive is because she is attracted to the features in the asari which are reminiscent of human women and those features are plentiful. I'm a guy and what I see is blue woman with rigid fleshy tentacles on her head. To argue the matter from some sort of technical classification angle is disingenuous at best.
It is what it is not what you want it to be.Athayniel wrote...
You also cannot remove the opinion of the human partner from the equation when classifying the relationship. To do so removes their agency in the entire process.
And that's just rude.
I wonder why that is...ElitePinecone wrote...
I don't quite understand your logic here.
If ME had s/s in the beginning I'd have no argument, what could my argument be ? Also for the record I'm not offended by s/s, I'm offended by people who use terms like bigotry, homophobic and etc towards gamers want an option to play ME3 like ME1 and ME2.ElitePinecone wrote...
Would you be less offended by s/s content in Mass Effect if it had been there from the beginning?
I'll put it to you this way, If DA3 was coming out would'nt be asking for a switch. I wouldn't automatically purchase the game either.ElitePinecone wrote...
Would you not argue for a filter or switch or toggle if the first game featured same-sex relationships?
You've come to this conclusion because you refuse to see things from my perspective. Your post is geared towards questioning my stance instead of understanding it then discussing it.ElitePinecone wrote...
Arguing for filtering content based on its novelty is baffling - you can turn on a TV, watch a movie or look out a window to see things ten times more explicit than anything Mass Effect's animators could come up with. It's hardly as if Biowar are pioneering the whole concept of homosexuality.
Your aruing your own position you've pulled out of nowhere, spend some time reading my previous post then respond to me.ElitePinecone wrote...
If you're against the idea because the character "wasn't gay/lesbian/bisexual" in previous games - says who? You?When did your character - or mine, or anybody's - say they were straight? They might've acted like it, if the player chose to.
Your on your little soapbox nothing you've said pertains to me. If you wanted to make a post in general please do so yu don't need to appear to be responding to me to do so.ElitePinecone wrote...
Capacity to perform an action doesn't imbue any quality on the person performing it. In the quirky quantum worlds of Mass Effect's continuity, many Shepards chose to have relationships with characters of the opposite gender. They, presumably, are straight or at least bisexual. But the ones that didn't? We have no idea.
More to the point: if you're perpared to get up in arms - horses rearing, trumpets blaring, canons firing - about the sexuality of the protagonist in a fictional universe purely to stymie attempts to make the game more interesting and engaging for a proportion of its fanbase, I'd say your priorities are badly misplaced. No disrespect intended, but I'm quite confident that a filter to ensure Shepard is pristinely straight is just about the lowest thing on Bioware's list of 'things to do'.
Being awefully dense aren't you ? Natural, meaning without tampering of any kind. If I put two healthy fertile human women in a empty room neither has the capacity to be impregnated by the other. Two Asari could impregnate the other, it's as simple as that.jlb524 wrote...
whywhywhywhy wrote...
What I have bolded is exactly the point I was making, the capability of it happening Naturally, the Asari don't need other means.jlb524 wrote...
whywhywhywhy wrote...
Two
healthy fit human females cannot reproduce being of the same sexnaturally.
I'm pretty sure their reproductive organs still work. Just not with each other. But both can use other means to become pregnant.
Wait, hold the phone. Insemination isn't 'Natural'? You still have egg + sperm = baby.
I think what you mean is that the means of insemination differ from the typical.
Appearance is all we have. Unless you're implying asari have pheromones or telepathic powers which can attract humans (and other alien species.) Mordin postulates as much but nobody seems at all interested in confirming it or they probably would have in the thousands of years since the rest of the galactic races began interacting with the asari. The reason I feel comfortable comparing the mating interactions of a monogendered species with bigendered species such as humans and salarians and turians is precisely because there is apparently so little difference biologically between asari and human females. They have body features which resemble human women, wide hips to give birth to live young, what appear to be breasts with which to suckle said young. The list goes on. The similarities are startling and in the absence of any more information I will classify their gender as 'female'.whywhywhywhy wrote...
My argument doesn't fall apart it's solid, your reasoning is off. Your grouping the gender of 2 gender races with a single gender race based off appearance.
And that's exactly why you guys are wrong, your approaching this based off appearances which has nothing to do with a species gender. Asari are asexual, how can human females be the same ? It's simple they are not.
I'm not refuting it. What I am refuting is your insistence that this single gender of the asari isn't for all intents and purposes the same as that of a human female. Your contention is that because there are is no sexual dimorphism in the asari species then the rest of the galaxy must treat asari as being a seperate third gender. This is not the case. Every species we have seen so far, with perhaps the exception of the hanar, considers asari to be female, using female pronouns and epithets when describing them. The only exception being the term 'father' used in the single instance of describing the non-birth partner of an asari/asari coupling. Biologically and functionally, the gender of asari is analogous to the female gender of all the species with the typical sexual dimorphism that we have seen thus far, especially humans.To quote you "hey have a gender which bears a striking resemblence to what
humans would label as 'female'." No matter how you identify with them they are monogendered ALIENs, period. This cannot be refuted.
It is what it is not what you want it to be.
Modifié par Athayniel, 26 septembre 2011 - 08:05 .
Attraction is irrelevant in establishing gender. Gender is something determined genetically. For instance: Sexual dimorphism is a phenotypic difference betweenAthayniel wrote...
Appearance is all we have. Unless you're implying asari have pheromones or telepathic powers which can attract humans (and other alien species.)
Feel free to be wrong, I have no problem with that. It's undisputable Asari are NOT human females not.Athayniel wrote...
The reason I feel comfortable comparing the mating interactions of a monogendered species with bigendered species such as humans and salarians and turians is precisely because there is apparently so little difference biologically between asari and human females. They have body features which resemble human women, wide hips to give birth to live young, what appear to be breasts with which to suckle said young. The list goes on. The similarities are startling and in the absence of any more information I will classify their gender as 'female'.
Actually to argue what your arguing is completely insane. You are once again trying to stretch the human Ecology to include Asari, it does not work. Asari are ALIEN foreign to earth and have no connection to it yet you continue to attempt tying them into it.Athayniel wrote...
Appearance has a lot to do with gender in sexually dimorphic species. To argue differently is nonsensical.
But that's neither here nor there they are parthenogenetic which was my original claim/post, in haste I typed Asexual and though I'm not wrong in that they are capable of it, it's certainly debatable. And to free us from debate that will sidetrack things, I'll sit it aside feel free to replace asexual with parthenogenetic.Athayniel wrote...
Humans will recognise asari as females. And considering they fulfill the typical biological roles of females they are right to. You are using the term 'asexual' incorrectly. That term denotes an organism which reproduces without sexual interaction or at the basest level without the exchange of genetic information between individuals. This is not the case with the asari.
Because they aren't. The Asari require any partner a human female requires a human male(up to this point.) That is not the same, it's not even simliar.Athayniel wrote...
I'm not refuting it. What I am refuting is your insistence that this single gender of the asari isn't for all intents and purposes the same as that of a human female.
Because they aren't human nor are they a 2 gender race. Thus they are a gender different from both a human male and a human female. On what basis do you claim otherwise ? Looks ? That's a joke. You have the differences in reproduction, lifespan, biotics and differing physical appearances. Yet because they have 2 arms, legs and some facial features, that and only that links them to human females, your insane.Athayniel wrote...
Your contention is that because there are is no sexual dimorphism in the asari species then the rest of the galaxy must treat asari as being a seperate third gender.
What you call something does not change what it is. How about what the Asari refer to themselves as ?Athayniel wrote...
This is not the case. Every species we have seen so far, with perhaps the exception of the hanar, considers asari to be female, using female pronouns and epithets when describing them.
Hmm would you look at that a contradiction. You claim what you and others view the Asari to be, based of appearance, a sticking point. How can a race of people who refer to themselves as father and mother as a result of the reproduction process be the same as a race that can't do the same thing, naturally?Athayniel wrote...
The only exception being the term 'father' used in the single instance of describing the non-birth partner of an asari/asari coupling.
I take your assertions as disingenious especially since you know your analogy doesn't apply.Athayniel wrote...
Biologically and functionally, the gender of asari is analogous to the female gender of all the species with the typical sexual dimorphism that we have seen thus far, especially humans.
Laughable. Like I said it is what it is. Not what I or you want it to be.Athayniel wrote...
It's definitely closer to what I want it to be than to what you want it to be.
It's obvious to me now we're arguing at cross-purposes because you are working solely from the perspective of defining asari gender clinically while I'm attempting to provide a reasoning why the asari are viewed as female in a social, romantic or sexual context. They are viewed as female by humans because they share most secondary sex characteristics of human females. That they are blue aliens with fleshy folds of skin atop their heads is irrelevant under the weight of the similarities.whywhywhywhy wrote...
Attraction is irrelevant in establishing gender. Gender is something determined genetically. For instance: Sexual dimorphism is a phenotypic difference between males and females of the same species Your completely off so I will ignore the use of your term because it is incorrect.
I'm not arguing that they are so please refrain from asserting that I am. I'm arguing that their appearance and mannerisms are sufficiently near to those of a human female that once the xenos barrier is set aside they can and are viewed as females by humans and other species.Feel free to be wrong, I have no problem with that. It's undisputable Asari are NOT human females not.
Again. I am not denying their alienness. Nor their monogenderedness. Only that in the eyes of humans those things are not an impedement to them being viewed as and interacted with as if they are female. Again, I think this continued misunderstanding is due to you coming at this from a clinical perspective that is frankly irrelevant when looking at the relationships asari have with other species in a social context. Humans don't care that asari are monogendered because they accept that single gender as being female and interact with asari from that basis.Actually to argue what your arguing is completely insane. You are once again trying to stretch the human Ecology to include Asari, it does not work. Asari are ALIEN foreign to earth and have no connection to it yet you continue to attempt tying them into it.
Just as inaccurate as 'asexual'. Parthenogenesis means that a species reproduces without fertilisation from another individual. Asari need two individuals in order to produce offspring. The 'fertilisation' is quasi-mystical in nature but it is still required.But that's neither here nor there they are parthenogenetic which was my original claim/post, in haste I typed Asexual and though I'm not wrong in that they are capable of it, it's certainly debatable. And to free us from debate that will sidetrack things, I'll sit it aside feel free to replace asexual with parthenogenetic.
See above in my arguments of clinical vs social context. The gender of asari partners is irrelevant in the context of how other species regard the gender of the asari themselves.Because they aren't. The Asari require any partner a human female requires a human male(up to this point.) That is not the same, it's not even simliar.
Once again you assert that I claim something I do not. I only say that there is enough similarity between asari and human females for them to be viewed as female in social, romantic and sexual contexts. This is not in dispute. Humans consider asari to be an all-female species. They are viewed as female by all who can look past the fact that they are aliens.Because they aren't human nor are they a 2 gender race. Thus they are a gender different from both a human male and a human female. On what basis do you claim otherwise ? Looks ? That's a joke. You have the differences in reproduction, lifespan, biotics and differing physical appearances. Yet because they have 2 arms, legs and some facial features, that and only that links them to human females, your insane.
The asari will of course have their own pronouns which do not get translated as most species can and do perceive them as female. What's your point? My argument is that their gender is viewed as female. Functionally, biologically, socially, a whole bunch of other terms ending in -ally. From the point of view of other species the asari are female.What you call something does not change what it is. How about what the Asari refer to themselves as ?
This is not a contradiction. I'm sure they use a word in their language which is simply translated as 'father'. It is only a term of distinction which rolls off the tongue more easily than non-birth-mother and suitably explains the relationship in terms which the sexually dimorphic species of the galaxy can more readily grasp. Frankly I would have much prefered if BioWare hadn't decided to use the word 'father' and simply created an asari term for the relationship and used it exclusively. We hear words of quarian from Tali so I don't know why we never hear spoken asari being used for these culturally exclusive terms. This was lazy writing but that's all.Hmm would you look at that a contradiction. You claim what you and others view the Asari to be, based of appearance, a sticking point. How can a race of people who refer to themselves as father and mother as a result of the reproduction process be the same as a race that can't do the same thing, naturally?
Now you're being deliberately obtuse. The analogy is very apt for all the reasons I've already listed.I take your assertions as disingenious especially since you know your analogy doesn't apply.
Aradace wrote...
Firstly, when someone flirts with me openly like Fenris and Anders do with Hawke, that constitutes "throwing themselves" at him IMO. Secondly, Fenris says, and I quote in a VERY flirtatious tone: "If I had known Anso would find me a man so capable, I might have asked him to look sooner." After you shoot him down the initial time, he doesnt do it again but still, doesnt help his case at all.
Aradace wrote...
Because Im sure that there are some gay folks as well as strait that get annoyed when they get hit on by "someone they're not interested in".
Aradace wrote...
Best way to make all parties involved happy, is to make it so that flirting, as well as actively seeking a character as a LI can only be initiated by the PC. Just trying to be even minded is all.
Modifié par catharsisboo, 27 septembre 2011 - 02:13 .
Guest_Catch This Fade_*
jreezy wrote...
Can't believe this is still being discussed. Don't like s/s romance? Don't do it. Like it? Do it. Nothing more, nothing less.
Chylise wrote...
Or you could just not flirt with people of the same sex, seeing as romantic relationships won't start unless Shepard initiates them.
catharsisboo wrote...
Aradace wrote...
Firstly, when someone flirts with me openly like Fenris and Anders do with Hawke, that constitutes "throwing themselves" at him IMO. Secondly, Fenris says, and I quote in a VERY flirtatious tone: "If I had known Anso would find me a man so capable, I might have asked him to look sooner." After you shoot him down the initial time, he doesnt do it again but still, doesnt help his case at all.
Flirtatious tone...? I'm sorry, I still fail to see how Fenris was being suggestive or flirty at all. IMO, you're reading way too far into that one line. I honestly think that was meant to be a compliment to Hawke's combat skills, not a flirting attempt.Aradace wrote...
Because Im sure that there are some gay folks as well as strait that get annoyed when they get hit on by "someone they're not interested in".
I personally am flattered when someone who I'm not interested in hits on me, male or female. I'll tell them that I'm not interested, but I don't get annoyed unless they won't take no for an answer.
Arokel wrote...
jreezy wrote...
Can't believe this is still being discussed. Don't like s/s romance? Don't do it. Like it? Do it. Nothing more, nothing less.
This. I never follow a s/s romance path in games and im not complaining. Its an option. Sure its kinda weird for me when a guy hits on your guy pc but you say not interested and move on.
Modifié par Aradace, 27 septembre 2011 - 08:40 .
Modifié par whywhywhywhy, 28 septembre 2011 - 01:46 .
Guest_Catch This Fade_*
Wow you've explained what I've been trying to explain about the Asari amazingly. Doesn't matter what humans think, Asari don't regard themselves as female in the human sense, which means they aren't female.whywhywhywhy wrote...
*snip*
Modifié par jreezy, 28 septembre 2011 - 01:55 .
Guest_Nyoka_*
Retour en haut