92 réponses à ce sujet

[nelly21]

Hah Yes Reapers wrote...

AdmiralCheez wrote...

Hah Yes Reapers wrote...

LOL.

Did you miss the two catfights that take place in the series?

"Catfight?"  Ashley and Liara confronted Shepard not to claw at each other, but to get him to stop fooling around.  Miranda, meanwhile, tried to avoid a physical fight with Jack and only acted defensively.

Besides, by ME3, everyone's done a whole helluva lot of maturing.

Okay, not a literal physical fight, but one could easily see them having a more heated Ashley-Liara pt. 2.

Besides, not entirely convinced that Miranda couldn't have talked down Jack and had NOTHING to do with that conflict. It's possible, but I doubt it.

Dude, Jack tells Shep she's pissed because Miranda won't admit what Cerberus did was wrong. A GROWN WOMAN IS THREATENING PHYSICAL VIOLENCE BECAUSE MIRANDA WON'T ADMIT WRONGDOING.

It's like Jack's a kindergartner. Miranda held her ground and stayed calm.

...granted, I may be a teensy bit biased

[Asenza]

Wulfram wrote...

AdmiralCheez wrote...
Miranda, meanwhile, tried to avoid a physical fight with Jack and only acted defensively.

I don't think trolling the person your organisation has tortured counts as trying to avoid a physical fight.

"It wasn't Cerberus. Not really. But clearly you were a mistake."

Not, "I won't take responsibility for something I wasn't involved in," or virtually anything else that would have allowed her to say she didn't personally have a hand in it. Not to mention that she still didn't answer the question ("She won't admit that what Cerberus did to me was wrong") during that scene, so... Miranda thinks what they did to Jack was right?

Miranda could have just said, "Wasn't me, but they went too far." Even if she didn't feel that way, she could have been the bigger person and headed off the confrontation but she didn't. Miranda could have stopped that argument before it began, what happened to Jack was wrong, yes, even in the name of science or the preservation and advancement of humanity. If Miranda just admitted it, maybe Jack wouldn't be looking to filet her later. She was acting just as much a child as Jack was.

Back to the true topic of the thread, I have cheating files for near everyone except Liara. Nooo way am I cheating on Liara. She'll live so long, she could be giving my Shepard's children's children's children hell over cheating on her. And she's the Shadow Broker... no way.

Modifié par Asenza, 22 septembre 2011 - 02:53 .

[AngelicMachinery]

The only viable solution is to romance wrex.

[nelly21]

@ Asenza

But Miranda wasn't involved. And clearly, from hearing the journal recordings, niether was Illusive Man. So what, should Miranda just admit to something she had nothing to do with to appease the tantrum?

[Xilizhra]

nelly21 wrote...

@ Asenza

But Miranda wasn't involved. And clearly, from hearing the journal recordings, niether was Illusive Man. So what, should Miranda just admit to something she had nothing to do with to appease the tantrum?

Clearly? Only someone as infatuated with Cerberus as Miranda could make a conclusive statement on that. And yes, she should have. Miranda has no obligation to appear superior to Jack; Jack's not in the same chain of command.

[Wulfram]

nelly21 wrote...

@ Asenza

But Miranda wasn't involved. And clearly, from hearing the journal recordings, niether was Illusive Man. So what, should Miranda just admit to something she had nothing to do with to appease the tantrum?

She could easily have said "It was wrong.  But it wasn't Cerberus, not really."  And left off the gratuitous insult at the end.

[nelly21]

Xilizhra wrote...

Clearly? Only someone as infatuated with Cerberus as Miranda could make a conclusive statement on that. And yes, she should have. Miranda has no obligation to appear superior to Jack; Jack's not in the same chain of command.

Except she is. Shep's in charge, Miranda is second in command. It's why she introduces herself as Shep's second in command. If she didn't want to work for them, she shouldn't have agreed to. Troops walking into officer's offices and attacking them? Yeah, not good for chain of command.

I'm not infatuated with Cerberus ( though Miranda? absolutely.) But facts are facts.

Jack agreed to work for Cerberus
Jack was made immediately aware of the chain of command
Jack was allowed to destroy a Cerberus installation despite working for them
Jack attacked Miranda for something as petty as admitting guilt to an operation she had nothing to do with

[Asenza]

Xilizhra wrote...

nelly21 wrote...

@ Asenza

But Miranda wasn't involved. And clearly, from hearing the journal recordings, niether was Illusive Man. So what, should Miranda just admit to something she had nothing to do with to appease the tantrum?

Clearly? Only someone as infatuated with Cerberus as Miranda could make a conclusive statement on that. And yes, she should have. Miranda has no obligation to appear superior to Jack; Jack's not in the same chain of command.

Again, I said that Miranda could have stopped the confrontation if she'd said something like, "Yes, it was wrong. When one runs an organization other people are involved and you can't control what other people do. But I won't take the blame for something I personally didn't do."

It's not about personal blame though, Jack isn't accusing Miranda of having kidnapped her and experimented her. Cerberus abused Jack and Miranda wouldn't admit that Cerberus was in the wrong.

Modifié par Asenza, 22 septembre 2011 - 04:10 .

[nelly21]

Wulfram wrote...

She could easily have said "It was wrong.  But it wasn't Cerberus, not really."  And left off the gratuitous insult at the end.

But she was angry. Do you have siblings? People do this to the people the LOVE everyday. You try to get the last word in because you're pissed off. Now imagine someone you don't even frikin' like attacks you. I doubt you'll say "Oh I apologize madame but you are quite misinformed". No you'll answer back because you're pissed.

[Asenza]

@ Nelly,

Facts are facts.

Jack was kidnapped, tortured and horribly abused, treated as a human lab rat.
Cerberus funded the project, made the eezo exposure happen.
Cerberus is responsible.
Miranda denied Cerberus is responsible.
Miranda defended Cerberus, not because the end justifies the means, or that it was in the name of science or for the advancement of humanity (which would have been cold, but pragmatic, as Miranda should have been).

Instead, she copped out. "It wasn't Cerberus. Not really."

 Miranda was acting just as much a child as Jack was. She didn't want to admit that the organization she truly believed in, and had invested so much time and effort into, could be in the wrong. It's the same as the Tali/Cerberus conversation on Freedom's Progress.

Modifié par Asenza, 22 septembre 2011 - 04:17 .

[nelly21]

Asenza wrote...

Again, I said that Miranda could have stopped the confrontation if she'd said something like, "Yes, it was wrong. When one runs an organization other people are involved and you can't control what other people do. But I won't take the blame for something I personally didn't do."

It's not about personal blame though, Jack isn't accusing Miranda of having kidnapped her and experimented her. Cerberus abused Jack and Miranda wouldn't admit that Cerberus was in the wrong.

Again, she physically attacked someone for not admitting guilt. Is this agreeable to you? Is this how rational people act? No. 

Miranda stood her ground and said, yeah, you were a mistake. Was it the "adult" thing to do? No. But did she march down to engineering send a warp bomb her way? No. Jack instigated the fight for a petty reason and you're painting her as the virgin Mary.

[MisterJB]

Asenza wrote...
Facts are facts.

Jack was kidnapped, tortured and horribly abused, treated as a human lab rat.
Cerberus funded the project, made the eezo exposure happen.
Cerberus is responsible.
Miranda denied Cerberus is responsible.
Miranda defended Cerberus, not because the end justifies the means, or that it was in the name of science or for the advancement of humanity (which would have been cold, but pragmatic, as Miranda should have been).

She copped out. "It wasn't Cerberus. Not really."

She copped out because of the way Jack acts, threatening Miranda and judging the entire Cerberus group because of what one Cell did. Said Cell that was not even acting under TIM's orders.
Should Shepard question her about it, Miranda will admit that Cerberus was not entirely blameless and that what happened in Pragia was a mistake that needed to be corrected because of the extent of the experiments performed there.

Modifié par MisterJB, 22 septembre 2011 - 04:21 .

[Asenza]

nelly21 wrote...

Asenza wrote...

Again, I said that Miranda could have stopped the confrontation if she'd said something like, "Yes, it was wrong. When one runs an organization other people are involved and you can't control what other people do. But I won't take the blame for something I personally didn't do."

It's not about personal blame though, Jack isn't accusing Miranda of having kidnapped her and experimented her. Cerberus abused Jack and Miranda wouldn't admit that Cerberus was in the wrong.

Again, she physically attacked someone for not admitting guilt. Is this agreeable to you? Is this how rational people act? No. 

Miranda stood her ground and said, yeah, you were a mistake. Was it the "adult" thing to do? No. But did she march down to engineering send a warp bomb her way? No. Jack instigated the fight for a petty reason and you're painting her as the virgin Mary.

Hey, I never said anything like that.

We should keep in mind the fact that we don't know the exact events that led up to the confrontation. We only walk in on Jack saying, "Touch me and I'll smear the walls with you..." That indicates that Miranda said something before that. Miranda could have instigated it. we don't really know.

But what we do know is Miranda is being just as petty, for not ending the confrontation when she could.


@ MisterJB

Again, she could have said, "yes it was wrong, but with any organization one cannot control everyone involved all the time." It's true. She could have said that there aren't many other ways for humans to advance in the area of biotics without testing, and that Jack just happened to be the lab experiment. Cold, but true.

If she had said either of these things I would have at least admired her for standing her ground. But instead... "It wasn't Cerberus. Not really."

Modifié par Asenza, 22 septembre 2011 - 04:28 .

[nelly21]

Asenza wrote...

Miranda was acting just as much a child as Jack was. She didn't want to admit that the organization she truly believed in, and had invested so much time and effort into, could be in the wrong. It's the same as the Tali/Cerberus conversation on Freedom's Progress.

And yet Tali isn't walking into Jacob's quarters and blasting him with a shotgun. Why? Because she's not an immature looney toon.

Miranda is technically right. If the scientists running the project were scared about what would happen if TIM found out, are they still respresentative of Cerberus? Clearly they knew they weren't towing the company line. Otherwise, why be afraid of Illusive Man?

Miranda acted maturely. She didn't fight back. Her frikin' tone of voice barely rose. Did she get a cheap verbal shot in? Sure.  But considering Jack threw a chair at her and threatened her with death, I would say Jack still has the lead.

[Willowhugger]

Again, she physically attacked someone for not admitting guilt. Is this agreeable to you? Is this how rational people act? No. 

Miranda stood her ground and said, yeah, you were a mistake. Was it the "adult" thing to do? No. But did she march down to engineering send a warp bomb her way? No. Jack instigated the fight for a petty reason and you're painting her as the virgin Mary.

Not to be rude, but Jack's petty reason is that Miranda is part of an organization of Space-Baddies who made her life a living hell. Draw your own parallel.

Of course, I'm of the perspective that virtually every single character on the Suicide Mission is one sort of dysfunctional basket case of one kind or another. Everyone except, potentially, Shepard and Jacob is dealing with one major set of issues or another. Miranda thinks of the Illusive Man as her substitute father, Jack thinks of them as Mad scientists.

Yes, they're going to fight.

Both of them are immature as hell. Miranda for being so willfully blind to the fact Cerberus is COBRA meets the Umbrella Corporation and Jack for treating everyone as if they're homicidal sociopaths out to kill or [insert appropriate image.] Jack is much worse off, damage wise, but Miranda ironically has the bigger potential to inflict damage since she's basically a Bond villainess.

[nelly21]

*editing after realizing how far off-topic we are.

I say we agree to disagree and get back on topic.

Modifié par nelly21, 22 septembre 2011 - 04:33 .

[Xilizhra]

Except she is. Shep's in charge, Miranda is second in command. It's why she introduces herself as Shep's second in command. If she didn't want to work for them, she shouldn't have agreed to. Troops walking into officer's offices and attacking them? Yeah, not good for chain of command.

That certainly wasn't a decision I made. Miranda is second-in-command only as it pertains to the Cerberus crew. My squadmates aren't under her authority unless I say so, as in the suicide mission (in any case, I give Garrus control there).

[Asenza]

nelly21 wrote...

Asenza wrote...

Miranda was acting just as much a child as Jack was. She didn't want to admit that the organization she truly believed in, and had invested so much time and effort into, could be in the wrong. It's the same as the Tali/Cerberus conversation on Freedom's Progress.

And yet Tali isn't walking into Jacob's quarters and blasting him with a shotgun. Why? Because she's not an immature looney toon.

Miranda is technically right. If the scientists running the project were scared about what would happen if TIM found out, are they still respresentative of Cerberus? Clearly they knew they weren't towing the company line. Otherwise, why be afraid of Illusive Man?

Miranda acted maturely. She didn't fight back. Her frikin' tone of voice barely rose. Did she get a cheap verbal shot in? Sure.  But considering Jack threw a chair at her and threatened her with death, I would say Jack still has the lead.

Again, we don't know the events that led up to the confrontation. Jack's first line of speech indicates that Miranda said something before Shepard walked in. Given Jack's words, "Touch me and I'll smear the walls with you," that indicates that Miranda might have even made a threat.We don't know. We don't know how the confrontation escalated. Did Jack storm up there or did Miranda ask her to come up? We don't know. Did Jack run up th Miranda's office and start throwing things? Probably not, because again, Jack's line of dialogue indicates that a conversation had occured before Shepard comes in.

Miranda is not technically right, if they are accepting Cerberus money and resources, and if they would eventually report to TIM (they weren't just torturing Jack for kicks) then they are still a part of Cerberus. They were afraid because THEY knew what they were doing was wrong, and TIM shut down the facility once he found out. They were wrong+they were a part of Cerberus= Cerberus was wrong.

[MisterJB]

Asenza wrote...
@ MisterJB

Again, she could have said, "yes it was wrong, but with any organization one cannot control everyone involved all the time."

And Jack could have not walked into her office to gloat.
Granted, Miranda could have called her but since nothing indicates that, I think it's safe to assume Jack was the one who came looking for a fight.

t's true. She could have said that there aren't many other ways for humans to advance in the area of biotics without testing, and that Jack just happened to be the lab experiment. Cold, but true.

If she had said either of these things I would have at least admired her for standing her ground. But instead... "It wasn't Cerberus. Not really."

Cerberus shut the project down, punished the scientists involved, gave medical care to the surviving subjects and never reopened Pragia (as far as we and Miranda know).
So, was it really Cerberus? I'm not trying to say that TIM (and by extent Cerberus) was not partially responsible but clearly he didn't approve of what was happening there.
Jack and Miranda both supported extreme sides of the argument. Jack blamed the entre group for what one Cell did after it had been proved that the particular Cell was acting without the knowledge of TIM.
Miranda automatically dissassociated the Pragia Cell from the rest of Cerberus.
Neither was right but since Miranda can actually admit Pragia was a mistake on Cerberu's part when asked politely, didn't raise her voice or attacked anyone (as far as I can tell), I tend to give her the reason in that argument (then again, I am a bit biased). 

Modifié par MisterJB, 22 septembre 2011 - 04:47 .

[Xilizhra]

Cerberus shut the project down, punished the scientists involved, gave medical care to the surviving subjects and never reopened Pragia (as far as we and Miranda know).

Wait, what? The project wasn't shut down, it was destroyed. The scientists weren't punished, they were dead. There were no surviving subjects, only Jack. The facility wasn't directly reopened, but TIM recycled everything to use in the Ascension project.

[MisterJB]

Xilizhra wrote...
Wait, what? The project wasn't shut down, it was destroyed. The scientists weren't punished, they were dead. There were no surviving subjects, only Jack. The facility wasn't directly reopened, but TIM recycled everything to use in the Ascension project.

Shepard receives this email after you finish Jack's LM.

"From: Cerberus Intel

Commander Shepard,

Contacting you per Illusive Man's instructions. He believed you would want to know that he had ordered Subject Zero's project shut down before the riot broke out. Cerberus personnel arrived to find all guards dead, along with most of the subjects. Any surviving children were treated for injuries, given mild amnesic treatments, and delivered to Alliance facilities as survivors of slaver attacks. A few surviving doctors were forcibly retired for their role in the project."

[Xilizhra]

Ah, yes, forcibly retired, so that none of the more idealistic Cerberus members will notice when they show up heavily made over in charge of new projects, possibly within the Alliance.

I also like how they don't say that TIM actually did order the project shut down, just that you would like to know he did. A nice way to avoid lying outright.

[MisterJB]

Xilizhra wrote...
I also like how they don't say that TIM actually did order the project shut down, just that you would like to know he did. A nice way to avoid lying outright.

If you want to believe that it's a lie, that's your business. But the email clearly states that TIM ordered the shut down of the project before the riots and that he tought that Shepard would like to know that he did so.

Modifié par MisterJB, 22 septembre 2011 - 05:18 .