49 réponses à ce sujet

[CainMaris]

Every time the word cheating enters an SP discussion, it goes off the rails.

It doesn't matter what your position is: your take on it depends on your definition of the word cheating, and there are at least two incompatible deinitions with arguable validity in this context.

Not going there right now- my take on it doesn't matter (and neither does yours).

The one thing that is clear is: raising the issue is going to be more irritating to everybody involved than not raising it would have been.

So what do you call a phenomenon like this?

Modifié par CainMaris, 10 septembre 2011 - 05:09 .

[WebShaman]

I call it the Flat Earth phenomena - where sooo many have been led to believe something, that they are UNABLE to accept facts, even when these facts are overwhelming and undeniable.

And yes, this actually is a studied phenomena - it seems that some humans do have a center in the brain that, if it believes something, will become even more cemented in that belief when presented with evidence to the contrary.

But we are left with the facts, regardless of belief or opinion. In the same notion that the Earth is indeed a globe (and not flat) REGARDLESS OF BELIEF OR OPINION, it is the same regarding Cheating in a Closed SP game.

Where a player makes their own rules (and no-one else is affected), there can be no cheating (unless, as I have pointed out, that person truly does have multiple personalities).

This is a given condition, obviously. So it is just a matter of finding this condition. And in a Closed SP session of NWN, we have precisely that.

Closed SP means that that person, and only that person, is playing the game and will be affected by playing it. This excludes all types of comparisons, of one way or another (like "what was your score" or "I finished with X amount of XP. What about you?" sort of things). For any type of comparison is not truly a closed SP environment, but an open one (and one that can be subject to cheating, dependingly).

In such an environment, the player themselves make the rules - regardless or not if they are conscious of it. There is simply no one else there to protest, or that has to comply with the rules. And of course, if such a player wishes to change the rules during play, they may do so, as they have the ultimate authority to do so. They do not have to reach any sort of consensus with anyone else.

As such, in a Closed SP environment, the player themselves have ultimate authority.

So indeed, there is no cheating in a Closed SP environment.

Now, one may say that one may feel they cheated themselves in such an environment, and think that is proof enough of cheating. But this is also incorrect. It is a description of a feeling here, nothing more. A feeling of loss, as in a loss of excitement, or enjoyment. But that is not cheating. That is just a feeling.

Cheating is not a feeling, obviously.

[CainMaris]

Whoops.

Too soon: blood was up.

My bad.

[NWN DM]

Why even bring this up (again) then?

[jmlzemaggo]

Yeahhh, why?

[Shadooow]

CainMaris: you should probably first read whole earlier thread about it or RAISE it! There was so much passion and fun!

HERE you go.

[Lightfoot8]

ShaDoOoW wrote...

CainMaris: you should probably first read whole earlier thread about it or RAISE it! There was so much passion and fun!

HERE you go.

It really is not worth reading in my opinion.  Some people will cheat some people wont.  Othere will cheat but claim that they are not cheating.  Who really cares what they do in SP.  

 Even with the argument that you can not break the rules when you make the rules argument, A good argument by the way,  I see it as cheating.   Reasion is that if you change the rules of a game, you are not really playing the original game anymore.   So if you say I am playing the OC with 99 strength, you are cheating.   If you say you are playing your modified version of the OC with 99 strength, I guess a case can be made for you not cheating.   

Even with that I still say it is cheating, I give the credit of the module to the original makers and not to the person changing/haking a few things to inprove there chances in playing it.   but if they have more fun playing that by all means let them do and have thee fun.   Arguing wether or not it is cheating is pointless.  

it is just sad when they clutter other threads in there passion to spread there truisms. It is nothing less then Rhetoric. In an effort to spread there religion, they take  over other peoples threads with a debate that is of no help to the OP.   Thies of the truisms religion are told there argument are cluttering other threads, State that they are correcting injustice and fighting ingnorance, triing to bring other to the truisims.  It is ok that they are stirring up crap the OP's question had already been answered.  From there position in the order of truisms they know for a fact that the original topic at hand has been fully answerd and no one has anything else to say on the matter.          

 

[Frith5]

I believe a person can be cheating in an endeavor in which they are the sole actor. This includes a videogame. The real question to me is whether there is anything 'wrong' or 'bad' about someone cheating in an SP game. I don't think there is. The cheater may be taking something away from a possible experience of beating a game within certain boundaries that were established (ie rules) by the creator of the game. But, so what? It's their decision, and if they have fun, then they should go for it. This, unlike real life, is only a game after all. But, although they and we may not care that they are cheating, that doesn't mean they are not cheating. If I am doing a crossword puzzle and I get stuck and flip to the back, I am cheating. Who cares? Nobody. But I am breaking the rules set forth for doing a crossword puzzle. That is cheating.
Have fun!

[CainMaris]

NWN DM wrote...

Why even bring this up (again) then?

Well, I wanted to make a point without mucking up someone else's thread, so I started this one.

And I was hoping to avoid diving into the issue as such, and instead talk about how the arguments go, which was obviously foolish on my part.

I've been unclear about my point.

My point was not, "Hey, let's have this futile, heated argument all over again here in a new thread!"

My point was:

• we have here a heated topic, that has been repeatedly argued at length
• nobody on either side sees any value to the other side, and most people who participate appear not to read what's posted very carefully
• the only thing it appears to accomplish is to bury questions and unrelated discussion, and to generally be irritating as hell.

I've seen the other recent threads. I've seen this argued a dozen times in this forum, the old forum, and even the comment threads in the vault. Who the hell cares anymore?

Given the history and nature of the issue, I wish that starting this argument, venting authoritatively about any aspect of it as though there weren't opposing viewpoints, or generally contributing to another lengthy, pointless round of it - and trashing someone else's thread in the process - was generally recognized as silly and somewhat ill-mannered.

But I'm sitting here typing because Someone On The Internet Is Wrong, which makes me part of the problem, doesn't it?

Never mind. Carry on..

[WebShaman]

Let us get to the point here.

IF there were those (some here in this thread) that would not say things like "you know you are cheating, right?" and so on, when others state that they have changed things in their Closed SP environment NWN game, well, I suppose it would be a moot issue, wouldn't it?

But that is exactly the issue here. Those who expound (in denial of the facts) that it is cheating are loud and vociferous in their finger pointing.

I suppose somehow their "world view" is being threatened, in some manner or fashion. So to the point that they have no choice but to damn the facts and wither in denial.

Much like those who firmly believed that the World Was Flat because teh Church said so!

The same can be said about some positions against The Theory of Evolution.

Here is such a good example of denial :

Reasion is that if you change the rules of a game, you are not really playing the original game anymore. So if you say I am playing the OC with 99 strength, you are cheating. If you say you are playing your modified version of the OC with 99 strength, I guess a case can be made for you not cheating.

Obviously, playing the OC with 99 strength is a "modified version" of the OC - it has been changed by the player themselves, even if it is just a little, tiny modification of the .bic in question. This did not happen due to some happenings ingame. The player consciously modified her game.

ANY change to the original is obviously NOT THE ORIGINAL anymore!

Not that it matters, in this sense. Changes to anything, as long as it is in a Closed SP environment is not cheating. There is no-one being cheated on.

Let me firmly restate that : THERE IS NO-ONE BEING CHEATED ON. Note that you cannot cheat on yourself (notable exception : you have multiple personalities). It is just not possible for you to simultaneously hold a set of rules, and at the same time somehow break them, without being the ultimate authority allowing yourself to do so.

In other words, somehow you would have to not be the ultimate authority, and break your own rules as if they were made by someone else.

This is not a logical conclusion.

It would be like having a copy of yourself standing there, looking over your shoulder with a stern look on your face saying "you may not do that! It is against the rules we both agreed upon!".

Now go get into a fight with yourself.

[Borden Haelven]

*rumages in back pack for sack of foul spelling offal*

Oo! I just love a long-winded and totally pointless argument... Have some troll food.

[Kail Pendragon]

Lightfoot8 wrote...

ShaDoOoW wrote...

CainMaris: you should probably first read whole earlier thread about it or RAISE it! There was so much passion and fun!

HERE you go.

It really is not worth reading in my opinion.  Some people will cheat some people wont.  Othere will cheat but claim that they are not cheating.  Who really cares what they do in SP.  

 Even with the argument that you can not break the rules when you make the rules argument, A good argument by the way,  I see it as cheating. 

That's because you stopped educating yourself, as you have said, a long time ago.

Reasion is that if you change the rules of a game, you are not really playing the original game anymore.   So if you say I am playing the OC with 99 strength, you are cheating.   If you say you are playing your modified version of the OC with 99 strength, I guess a case can be made for you not cheating.  

That would be cheating someone else into believing you played a vanilla OC, which is not anymore the realm of SP. There can be no cheating in SP, period. Same as 4+4=8 and not 10. 

Even with that I still say it is cheating, I give the credit of the module to the original makers and not to the person changing/haking a few things to inprove there chances in playing it.   but if they have more fun playing that by all means let them do and have thee fun.   Arguing wether or not it is cheating is pointless. 

Indeed, since it's a truism that there can be no cheating in SP; arguing about it is pointless but seemingly there's plenty of people which like to make foolds out of themselves by arguing against self evident facts.

it is just sad when they clutter other threads in there passion to spread there truisms. It is nothing less then Rhetoric. In an effort to spread there religion, they take  over other peoples threads with a debate that is of no help to the OP.   Thies of the truisms religion are told there argument are cluttering other threads, State that they are correcting injustice and fighting ingnorance, triing to bring other to the truisims.  It is ok that they are stirring up crap the OP's question had already been answered.  From there position in the order of truisms they know for a fact that the original topic at hand has been fully answerd and no one has anything else to say on the matter.    

 

Those stirring up crap and cluttering threads are those that argue against the self evident truth... lemme see, you, Shadow, the now gone Lowlander mostly. People that "stopped educating themselves a long time ago", that do not (want to) kno wthe difference between a fix and a modification etc. What a bunch of excellent minds!

[Kail Pendragon]

Frith5 wrote...

I believe a person can be cheating in an endeavor in which they are the sole actor.

Your belief does nothing to change the reality of facts. You might as well believe that the Earth is flat (something that some people actually still do), but the Earth stays round all the same.

[_Guile]

To answer the OP, I'll just say it's not really a phenominon, it's more like a dance with opinionated people.

Many NWN Players are old D&D Players, they have a very stiff & unwavering belief or view of a system no matter which version that may be, or set of rules.

Anything that goes outside of the system/rules is viewed as unorthadox, cheating, or improper.

Of course when one brings up the subject you will get an opinion, in fact many opinions, because, let's face it, NWN is full of opinionated old players who, with nothing better to do than bicker & banter over old stuff, choose to enter the fray or discussion with their opinion.

Like myself and many other players, we all have our own view of things, and are more than happy, whether anyone cares to hear it or not, to share those views.  The dicussion about cheating often becomes overly excited probably because pissed off players who got kicked out of servers for exploiting have something say, and of course us server admins / DMs will be more than glad to point out that, cheating is fine, as long as you aren't online cheating, then it's no longer a matter of IF you are cheating, but WHY are you cheating?

Why ask why?  It's pointless, I just drop kick & often bann exploiters/cheaters, who are definitely doing what they are NOT suppose to be doing, like duping gold, using known exploits for an advantage, robbing other player's game play by picking their pockets, etc...

Bad players do bad things, when good players & bad players meet on a forum, it's not really a phenomenom, it's going to be a very raised discussion..

Just my 2 copper pieces..

Modifié par _Guile, 14 septembre 2011 - 10:19 .

[Kail Pendragon]

CainMaris wrote...

Every time the word cheating enters an SP discussion, it goes off the rails.

It doesn't matter what your position is: your take on it depends on your definition of the word cheating, and there are at least two incompatible deinitions with arguable validity in this context.

Not going there right now- my take on it doesn't matter (and neither does yours).

The one thing that is clear is: raising the issue is going to be more irritating to everybody involved than not raising it would have been.

So what do you call a phenomenon like this?

It doesn't happen only with "cheating" obviously. I consider it a simple display of idiocy by those that are so arrogant not to recognize their ignorance and unintelligence even when displayed for them in the open. I've seen it happen a 1000 times and I'm talking of science boards too. The mother of idiots is always pregnat, as they say where I live.

[Frith5]

Kail Pendragon wrote...

Frith5 wrote...

I believe a person can be cheating in an endeavor in which they are the sole actor.

Your belief does nothing to change the reality of facts. You might as well believe that the Earth is flat (something that some people actually still do), but the Earth stays round all the same.

Everything you've just said regarding my post is only your opinion, with which I happen to disagree. As you say, simply saying 'its a fact' doesn't make it a fact. You may occasionally want to take a look at what you write, and just for the hell of it, switch your perpsective around with the person with whom you are disagreeing. See what happens? Your words to me could apply exactly unchanged as my words to you, and who can prove otherwise? You don't think anyone can cheat themselves or cheat when doing something alone, eh? Here, lemme quote you again: Your belief does nothing to change the reality of facts. You might as well believe that the Earth is flat (something that some people actually still do), but the Earth stays round all the same.

Also, the Earth is not round. It's spherical. A circle is round; a ball is spherical. Semantics, and not important. Just didn't want to you stop educating yourself.

[WhiZard]

WebShaman wrote...
Here is such a good example of denial :

Reasion is that if you change the rules of a game, you are not really playing the original game anymore. So if you say I am playing the OC with 99 strength, you are cheating. If you say you are playing your modified version of the OC with 99 strength, I guess a case can be made for you not cheating.

Obviously, playing the OC with 99 strength is a "modified version" of the OC - it has been changed by the player themselves, even if it is just a little, tiny modification of the .bic in question. This did not happen due to some happenings ingame. The player consciously modified her game.

99 Strength is an ingame console command (arguably using DebugMode).  Was the OC intended to use DebugMode in SP? is a different question.

[Shadooow]

WebShaman wrote...

Obviously, playing the OC with 99 strength is a "modified version" of the OC - it has been changed by the player themselves, even if it is just a little, tiny modification of the .bic in question. This did not happen due to some happenings ingame. The player consciously modified her game.

ANY change to the original is obviously NOT THE ORIGINAL anymore!

Actually, its not modifying OC but your character, thats completely different thing. Most of the modifications you were talking about are not modifications of OC/module at all. All of it was client-side. The module itself wont change, so you are not changing module "rules".

But that just a technical point of view. For me its about intend, using console comand to increase strenght to 99 is clearly intend to make a game easier, to cheat.

Modifié par ShaDoOoW, 14 septembre 2011 - 02:38 .

[Lightfoot8]

Forget your personal tragedy. We are all ****ed from the start and you especially have to be hurt like hell before you can write seriously. But when you get the damned hurt, use it-don't cheat with it.
Ernest Hemingway


Each of us has been put on earth with the ability to do something well. We cheat ourselves and the world if we don't use that ability as best we can.
George Allen, Sr.


Do not be too moral. You may cheat yourself out of much life so. Aim above morality. Be not simply good; be good for something.
Henry David Thoreau


“To cheat oneself out of love is the most terrible deception; it is an eternal loss for which there is no reparation, either in time or in eternity”
Soren Kierkegaard


“The first and worst of all frauds is to cheat one's self. All sin is easy after that.”
Pearl Bailey


“No one can cheat you out of ultimate success but yourself.”
Ralph Waldo Emerson

“Most people have come to prefer certain of life’s experiences and deny and reject others, unaware of the value of the hidden things that may come wrapped in plain and even ugly paper. In avoiding all pain and seeking comfort at all costs, we may be left without intimacy or compassion; in rejecting change and risk we often cheat ourselves of the quest; in denying our suffering we may never know our strength or our greatness.”
Rachel Naomi Remen

If you just were willing to educate yourself, which you are self admittedly not, you would discover that cheating implies deceipt.
Kail Pendragon


As a further important clarification, cheating also implies deceipt. And that implies two parties. Oh look, in SP there's one single parrty involved.
Kail Pendragon

Don't be to hard on Kail he mised out on all that other wisdom also, In his rush to win the argument.

Modifié par Lightfoot8, 14 septembre 2011 - 03:10 .

[WhiZard]

Lightfoot8 wrote...

Don't be to hard on Kail he mised out on all that other wisdom also, In his rush to win the argument.

The whole discussion is over two different definitions of a word.  From the free online dictionary (other dictionaries will note these as well)  the two primary definitions of the intransitive verb cheat are:

1. To act dishonestly; practice fraud.
2. To violate rules deliberately, as in a game

I know of several regions in the US where definition two is used more frequently than definition one.  Definition two is the older, stemming etymologically from "escheat".

EDIT: fixed link

Modifié par WhiZard, 14 septembre 2011 - 04:59 .

[Kail Pendragon]

Frith5 wrote...

Kail Pendragon wrote...

Frith5 wrote...

I believe a person can be cheating in an endeavor in which they are the sole actor.

Your belief does nothing to change the reality of facts. You might as well believe that the Earth is flat (something that some people actually still do), but the Earth stays round all the same.

Everything you've just said regarding my post is only your opinion,

That your belief does nothing to change the reality of facts? Maybe. It is not my opinion that cheating in SP is simply not possible though, that's currently a  proven fact.

with which I happen to disagree. As you say, simply saying 'its a fact' doesn't make it a fact.

Indeed. In fact, it's the fact it is a fact to make it a fact. That's what happens when someone states the obvious self evident truth. And then fools come around thinking they can disagree with it (the truth).

You may occasionally want to take a look at what you write, and just for the hell of it, switch your perpsective around with the person with whom you are disagreeing.

I'm not disagreeing with anyone, others are disagreeing with facts. I could disagree with someone if it were a matter of opinions, something which facts are not.

See what happens? Your words to me could apply exactly unchanged as my words to you, and who can prove otherwise? You don't think anyone can cheat themselves or cheat when doing something alone, eh? Here, lemme quote you again: Your belief does nothing to change the reality of facts. You might as well believe that the Earth is flat (something that some people actually still do), but the Earth stays round all the same.

I have no belief about it, no opinion about it. I have knowledge about it instead; knowledge that one cannot cheat in SP.

Also, the Earth is not round. It's spherical. A circle is round; a ball is spherical. Semantics, and not important. Just didn't want to you stop educating yourself.

Thank you for the correction! I believe you are wrong about it though (now this is opinion as evidenced by my choice of words), since more than one dictionary I consulted reports round as meaning spherical too. I also did not want to use spherical since the Earth is not really spherical and I felt thant round conveyed the approximate shape of the Earth more properly. Anyhow, if you have more insight about it or know of a better ordinary english word to describe the approximate shape of the Earth I'll be happy to hear about it.

And have no fear, I won't stop educating myself. It is against my nature.

[Kail Pendragon]

Lightfoot8 wrote...

Forget your personal tragedy. We are all ****ed from the start and you especially have to be hurt like hell before you can write seriously. But when you get the damned hurt, use it-don't cheat with it.
Ernest Hemingway


Each of us has been put on earth with the ability to do something well. We cheat ourselves and the world if we don't use that ability as best we can.
George Allen, Sr.


Do not be too moral. You may cheat yourself out of much life so. Aim above morality. Be not simply good; be good for something.
Henry David Thoreau


“To cheat oneself out of love is the most terrible deception; it is an eternal loss for which there is no reparation, either in time or in eternity”
Soren Kierkegaard


“The first and worst of all frauds is to cheat one's self. All sin is easy after that.”
Pearl Bailey


“No one can cheat you out of ultimate success but yourself.”
Ralph Waldo Emerson

“Most people have come to prefer certain of life’s experiences and deny and reject others, unaware of the value of the hidden things that may come wrapped in plain and even ugly paper. In avoiding all pain and seeking comfort at all costs, we may be left without intimacy or compassion; in rejecting change and risk we often cheat ourselves of the quest; in denying our suffering we may never know our strength or our greatness.”
Rachel Naomi Remen

If you just were willing to educate yourself, which you are self admittedly not, you would discover that cheating implies deceipt.
Kail Pendragon


As a further important clarification, cheating also implies deceipt. And that implies two parties. Oh look, in SP there's one single parrty involved.
Kail Pendragon

Don't be to hard on Kail he mised out on all that other wisdom also, In his rush to win the argument.

There's no argument to win at all, if you just were willing to educate yourself you would know it.. As you would know the difference between the proper meaning of a word and a figure of speech. Which evidently you do not. But what to expect from someone that stopped educating himself a long time ago?

[Kail Pendragon]

ShaDoOoW wrote...

WebShaman wrote...

Obviously, playing the OC with 99 strength is a "modified version" of the OC - it has been changed by the player themselves, even if it is just a little, tiny modification of the .bic in question. This did not happen due to some happenings ingame. The player consciously modified her game.

ANY change to the original is obviously NOT THE ORIGINAL anymore!

Actually, its not modifying OC but your character, thats completely different thing. Most of the modifications you were talking about are not modifications of OC/module at all. All of it was client-side. The module itself wont change, so you are not changing module "rules".

But that just a technical point of view. For me its about intend, using console comand to increase strenght to 99 is clearly intend to make a game easier, to cheat.

Making the game easier is not to cheat. You should get yourself acquainted with the meaning of cheat/cheating before talking.

[jmlzemaggo]

Are you soon going to see some real blood or not?
I'm getting a bit impatient here. Come on guys! Bring it on!
Swords out! (I learned that one from The Eagle. Another terrible movie)

[_six]

I want to start a movement, to coin the new phrase...

Acting Outside The Bounds Of The Intended Rules Of Play As Designed By The Developers By Modifying Or Circumventing Rules

We don't cheat. We AOTBOTIROPADBYTDBMOCR.

Everyone's happy.

Side note: has it ever occurred to anyone that debug mode was implemented for debugging. For instance, quickly getting a character back to the same stats after having to end a test playthrough when the module itself was changed (save files remain buggy after a module change). Sure, you aren't screwing anyone else over by using it to play the game, but that doesn't change the fact that you are AOTBOTIROPADBYTDBMOCRing a bit. If you like doing that for your own enjoyment, cool. It's not really any different to enjoying glitching through walls to look at the pretty skybox, its just playing the game in a way it wasn't really intended to be presented as a product.

I don't really care what you call it, I just find it interesting the way random threads started by new players are being systematically taken over by semantics rather than answering peoples questions. The NWN community, driving away new players one thread at a time.

Modifié par _six, 14 septembre 2011 - 09:38 .