16 réponses à ce sujet

[Indoctrination]

1. I think the developers either set their goals too high in the theme of the game or the marketing staff was right out deceptive. Dragon Age II was sold as a game about "Hawke's rise to power." It's a phrase we heard a hundred times during the marketing period. What rise to power? Nothing Hawke ever does in the game gives him any kind of power, at all. At best, the end of act 2 makes it so people respect you, and that's it. At no point during the game does Hawke ever rise to power. The most we get is one ending where Hawke temporarily becomes Viscount but then vanishes. Even if that wasn't the case, I specifically remember developers promising us that decisions would matter in the game and not just in the epilogue. What happened? Ideally, Hawke should have been able to become Viscount at the end of act 2 and if so, act 3 should have put a lot of power into his hands with decisions radically changing how the acts flows in some cases. Does that require more time? Yes. Does it require more money to develop? Yes. If that's not practical, then you guys at BioWare shouldn't have made such bold claims about decisions mattering and our character's rise to power.

2. Specializations are a big part of everyone's character except for yours. This was a problem in DA1 as well. Your party members' specializations are a big chunk of who they are. Merrill's blood magic, Anders' Justice mode, etc, etc. The only character specializations are meaningless to is Hawke. If Hawke is a blood mage, shouldn't this be a really big deal in a story that's so focused on the dangers of mages? Why is it that everyone else is worried about being persecuted for blood magic except for my character? It doesn't have to be a giant plot point, but it should be a factor in some scenarios. Another thing on specializations, like I said before, for every other character specializations are a part of who they are. Being a pirate and having that experience is what makes Isabella a swashbuckler. Taking Justice into his body is what gives Anders is extraordinary powers, etc. Why is it then that picking up specializations with Hawke is like picking up a ring or a helmet? Actually, in Dragon Age II the specializations don't even have to be unlocked, which means they actually require less effort on the player's part than a generic helmet or ring. Specializations should be linked to quests. You do a big side quest and at the end you make a decision where you can learn blood magic, for example. That would go a long way to making specializations an actually meaningful part of the story that's being told.

3. Character development and the flow of the plot were terrible. Was I supposed to care about Meredith or Orsino, two characters whom I don't meet until the near end of the game? Even if their part in the story wasn't until the end, they still should have been in the earlier acts, in minor quests, cutscenes, etc. Proper character development doesn't happen over the course of a couple of 3 minute conversations at the end of the game. Imaging if in Origins, Loghain didn't show his face at all during the plot until the Landsmeet. That's basically what the writing team allowed to happen with Orsino and Meredith in Dragon Age II. As for the flow of the plot, it felt more like three long DLCs or expansions than a full, cohesive game. I blame this on the empty gaps in between acts. Years have passed in between each act? Have they? Other than some minor references to the life your character was forced to live without you during these time-skips, it seems like everything stayed the same? So what was the point exactly? I certainly don't feel any passage of time during these skips, so it's like the years haven't been going by at all. What I'm saying is that the plot feels like it's been chopped up and it's for no benefit. The time gaps provided exactly zero utility  in my opinon. If anything all they did was divorce the player from their characters by putting them out of the loop on what their character has been doing during the game.

4. I don't want to talk much about the silly way mages were handled in the plot, because I know the developers have already gotten a lot of grief over it. I just want to briefly mention how even if you side with the mages, Orsino still goes insane and turns himself into a monster? WHY? If you sided with the mages, he isn't backed into a corner. Immediately before the transformation scene, your side won a big battle. The momentum is with the mages. Why would he possibly turn himself into the Harvester and justify it as some sort of act of desperation when the momentum of the conflict has shifted in his favour?!?!!?!?! Why, why, WHY?! To be honest, the entire 3rd act felt like it was rushed and not even completed. It feels like half of the plot is missing. The half which makes the half we were given make sense. If everyone loses their minds and have to be put down regarldess of what I do, then why should I, the player, care about the decsions I have to make?

5. How about more character development for party members? Instead of having a large amout of side-quests which mean nothing, have no impact on anything, why not create less of those and use those resources to give each party member more personal quests. Instead of having all character development happen through three conversations and one quest, how about having it happen through a lot more conversations and maybe four or five personal quests for each character. That's more opportunity to flesh out characters at a normal pace instead of rushing through it which is the status quo. I've always hated how in BioWare games it's like you talk to your characters a few times, and then they have nothing new to say for the rest of the game. Why not have a large bank of topics to talk about at the beginning, like in Origins, but add in one or two more after every major plot quest so it's worth talking to your characters throughout the entire game? In DA2 the character development felt like Mass Effect 2, which is not the way to go, in my opinion. First conversation --> Second conversation --> Quest --> Third conversation --> Quest --> Conclusion. And that's it for the entire game. DA2 only differs from ME2 in that it generally adds one extra quest in the middle. Really now. Can any writer on the team really claim this is the only way characters can be developed?

6. Dragon Age II is probably one of the few BioWare games that would have really benefited from New Game+. The talent trees were really well done in DA2, too bad almost all of them will never be experienced by me, because the whole game only lets me max out two of them at most. I can be really bad at all skillsets or I can be really good at two of them. Those are my options because to get to any of the decent skills, every tree requires me to put 3-7 points into things I may or may not even want first. If new game+ was around, at the very least I could have kept playing and gotten to try those other abilities.


To be fair, I really enjoyed the Legacy DLC, and I'm really glad the developers listened to criticism of the game and changed directions. Hopefully, someone important might see this post and take some of this polite criticism into account. Thanks for all of the hard work guys, in any case.

Just remember that people are a lot more forgiving when your creative shortcomings aren't preceded by bold promises you guys have no intentions of keeping. If you can't make a game with meaningful decisions in it, then please stop promising us games with meaningful decisions in it. I'd be much less disappointed with some features of Dragon Age II if not for the fact that the marketing team hyped me up with grand claims they must have known were objectively false.

Modifié par Indoctrination, 10 septembre 2011 - 05:31 .

[andraip]

5. I think the character development was very well done, you companions would also talk to each other in their free time, not like DAO where you party members ignored the presence of each other.
Also you had actually 3 personal quests for each companion, not 1. The conversation time you would have with your companions is also about the same as for Origins.

I'm also curios what the large amount of side-quest which mean nothing are, if you're referring to the fetch quests, then I can assure you that they don't need much ressources, I'm pretty sure that you can't make one decent side-quest which the ressources invested into all the fetch quests.

6. That is just a lie, you can get 30+ skill points in the game, that is per se 3 maxed out skill trees, and you don't even need 10 skill points to get all you want from an skill tree. Also that is what new playtrhoughs are for, just try out different skill trees.

What do you mean by that you need 3 to 7 points into things you may or may not want to get the DECENT skills dor EVERY tree??? I would apreciate if you could get me a list of those decent skills you're talking for every tree

[Indoctrination]

andraip wrote...

5. I think the character development was very well done, you companions would also talk to each other in their free time, not like DAO where you party members ignored the presence of each other.
Also you had actually 3 personal quests for each companion, not 1. The conversation time you would have with your companions is also about the same as for Origins.

I'm also curios what the large amount of side-quest which mean nothing are, if you're referring to the fetch quests, then I can assure you that they don't need much ressources, I'm pretty sure that you can't make one decent side-quest which the ressources invested into all the fetch quests.

6. That is just a lie, you can get 30+ skill points in the game, that is per se 3 maxed out skill trees, and you don't even need 10 skill points to get all you want from an skill tree. Also that is what new playtrhoughs are for, just try out different skill trees. What do you mean by that you need 3 to 7 points into things you may or may not want to get the DECENT skills dor EVERY tree??? I would apreciate if you could get me a list of those decent skills you're talking for every tree

Character development was very poor. If you thought Meredeth and Ordino were well developed characters, then I'm going to politely disagree and keep other thoughts on this subject to myself out of politeness. The party character development was also lacking. Aveline for example never really develops at all. She stays as the same tough girl with a mending heart throughout the entire game with brief moments of optimism every now and then. Being exactly the same throughout the entire game is not development, brother. And that's just one example. Look at Varric. He tells you right at the start he's not happy with his little brother role. And everything involving him in quests comes back to him being unhappy with his little brother role. He's the exact same character from start to finish. Where is the development?

The amounts of pointless side quests? Perhaps it would take less time to name side quests which did have meaning. Why don't you name the sidequests which you think had a meaningful impact on the game.

As for the skill tree, my last game of DA2 finished with me having maxed 2 skill sets, elemental and spirit healing. I had two more points in creation for healing, which was mandatory, and then didn't have enough points to get at any of the good spells in Blood Magic because to get hemorrhage because to get to hemorrhage the game says I need 4 skill points. Three to unlock hemorrhage and then one more to get hemorrhage. Do I need to continue?

Modifié par Indoctrination, 10 septembre 2011 - 06:45 .

[caradoc2000]

On the topic of skill points, I think this type of implementation is good - it forces you to specialize instead of every character ending up exactly the same (with everything maxed out).

[Indoctrination]

caradoc2000 wrote...

On the topic of skill points, I think this type of implementation is good - it forces you to specialize instead of every character ending up exactly the same (with everything maxed out).

I agree that you shouldn't be able to get everything. It would be nice if there was maybe 10 more points to get in a playthrough though. BioWare should release a patch which makes it so you get 5 levels after each act before the ending. That way Hawke can say he did something productive during the time-skips.

[andraip]

Since I had an "5." before my text I was refferring to character development of the companions, not Meredith and Orsino, with imo didn't have any character development at all. But other NPC actually were well done, Like the Arishok or Saemus.

Aveline and Varric don't change there personalities troughout the game, that's true. But do you honestly espect that a person would radically change their personality in 7 years without good reason??! However the relation between the different party members change troughout the game, e.g. Aveline and Isabella respect each other in Act 3, I would call this character development. Varric however is content which is role, he don't want to change that. Again to you espect a person who is like 28 to be that different when he is 35?

Well I guess all the quest in the category "side-quests" where pointless, there were there only to give you gold + XP. Mostly it just is you found item x in location y and have to bring it now to person z. You don't need much ressources for that type of quest...

If you choose to finish the game in a low level and/or not buying the +skillpoints tomes then this is up to you.
Bloodmagic is 1 of 27 talent trees in the game, so yes you need to continue. Also it is natural that some powerful spells are deep into a talent tree, also in DAO you had to get all other frost spells before getting Blizzard. Also you don't get Bloodmagic only for Hemorrhage, you do it do be a bloodmage, aka using health instead of mana. But you said for EVERY talent tree so what about the others, there a lot of one point wonders there.

[Indoctrination]

andraip wrote...

Since I had an "5." before my text I was refferring to character development of the companions, not Meredith and Orsino, with imo didn't have any character development at all. But other NPC actually were well done, Like the Arishok or Saemus.

Aveline and Varric don't change there personalities troughout the game, that's true. But do you honestly espect that a person would radically change their personality in 7 years without good reason??! However the relation between the different party members change troughout the game, e.g. Aveline and Isabella respect each other in Act 3, I would call this character development. Varric however is content which is role, he don't want to change that. Again to you espect a person who is like 28 to be that different when he is 35?

Well I guess all the quest in the category "side-quests" where pointless, there were there only to give you gold + XP. Mostly it just is you found item x in location y and have to bring it now to person z. You don't need much ressources for that type of quest...

If you choose to finish the game in a low level and/or not buying the +skillpoints tomes then this is up to you.
Bloodmagic is 1 of 27 talent trees in the game, so yes you need to continue. Also it is natural that some powerful spells are deep into a talent tree, also in DAO you had to get all other frost spells before getting Blizzard. Also you don't get Bloodmagic only for Hemorrhage, you do it do be a bloodmage, aka using health instead of mana. But you said for EVERY talent tree so what about the others, there a lot of one point wonders there.

I wasn't talking about personality. I was talking about character development. Varric's personality doesn't have much to do with the fact that every time he opens his mouth to you for one of his quests, it's always "I'm Bartrand's little brother! Look at what I have to put up with here!" No, that's just a result of zero development. He stays the exact same guy from start to finish.

All of the side quests were pointless, and I'll even challenge you to name anything from the secondary quest group which had a meaningful impact on the way the game turns out. Can you name even one?

Some powerful spells are deep into the tree for blood magic? Uh... that's one way of putting it. Another way of putting it would be that the only good spells in that tree are deep into it. You have to waste points on gimmicky health grabbing moves to get access to any of the offense spells. Comparing it to origins, only defeats your argument, I think. In origins, the cold tree's first ability was Winter's Grasp, a highly useful offensive move. They didn't start you with three spells that had nothing to do with cold offense before letting you get Winter's grasp which is what happened with hemorrhage in DA2.

[andraip]

I disagree about what you are saying about Varric, I think it's bast if we just agree to disagree on that matter.

And I challenge you to name a main quest that had a meaningful impact on the outcome of the game, you can side with who you want, the game always come out the same. But I think the secondary quests were well done, like the Bone Pit storyline, it let you feal important owning half a gold mine and beeing the one who keeps the mine going, imo.

The only bloodmagic spell that isn't really usefull is Blood Sacrifice, but still it is a good spell with use. Blood Slave and Grave Robber are also very good spells. However this is was make a good talent tree system imo, you have to look if you want a talent that is good now or if you want invest into a tree getting not that awesome spells now but getting awesome spells later. In Origins there was the Mana Clash line...

However if you want to be a good Bloodmage how have to invest heavily into the Bloodmagic tree, but there are other talent trees out there were this doesn't happen.

Here is a Bloodmage build I would use, without having any talent point wasted on something I don't want. This build would be for a Varric, Sebastian and Anders party, at level 28. All skilled somewhere near as AreleX would (so DPS builds)

[Indoctrination]

andraip wrote...

I disagree about what you are saying about Varric, I think it's bast if we just agree to disagree on that matter.

And I challenge you to name a main quest that had a meaningful impact on the outcome of the game, you can side with who you want, the game always come out the same. But I think the secondary quests were well done, like the Bone Pit storyline, it let you feal important owning half a gold mine and beeing the one who keeps the mine going, imo.

The only bloodmagic spell that isn't really usefull is Blood Sacrifice, but still it is a good spell with use. Blood Slave and Grave Robber are also very good spells. However this is was make a good talent tree system imo, you have to look if you want a talent that is good now or if you want invest into a tree getting not that awesome spells now but getting awesome spells later. In Origins there was the Mana Clash line...

However if you want to be a good Bloodmage how have to invest heavily into the Bloodmagic tree, but there are other talent trees out there were this doesn't happen.

Here is a Bloodmage build I would use, without having any talent point wasted on something I don't want. This build would be for a Varric, Sebastian and Anders party, at level 28. All skilled somewhere near as AreleX would (so DPS builds)

Agree to disagree? I severely doubt you can make any kind of argument which says any of Varric's quests go beyond "I'm Bartrand's little brother! Look what I have to put up with here!" If you want to make an argment that Varric's character ever develops beyond what it is initially you have to provide an example of how he has changed. We both know however that it a wild goose chase. Varric's never develops beyond what it is initially.

Challenge me to name a main quest where the decisions matter? Why would you do that when one of my main points was that they don't? The difference is that you need the main quests, like say, The Last Straw to  hold the plot up. All of the quests that consist of "there's this bad dude at ____. Kill him and then come back here for 1 sovereign" quests on the other hand could disappear and the main plot would not be affected. This is a strange arguing point for you considering the point in question here is about cutting out some of the meaningless quests to make room for potentially more meaningful ones. The fact that the main quests were bad too doesn't change the fact that you could cut out the secondary ones without disrupting the plot. Your example here is a little silly if you ask me. Owning the mine? In what way do you own the mine exactly? The Bone Pit guy calls you partner with an accent and sends you on mindless kill quests, but other than that you have no involvement with the mine at all. You don't run it. You don't get invoices and profit charts. You have no involvement with the mine outside of playing exterminator once an act.

When you only have a little over twenty spells, having to waste three points to get to 1 and then having to spend more points to make that spell good with upgrades isn't practical in my opinion (and yes, I don't believe the math adds up on your 30+ claim from earlier. I finished the game at level 23 and did not have 30 spells despite buying every tome I could find).

[andraip]

Varric quest in Act 2 is "Hey Hawke, I heard Bartrand is in town, wanna give this treacherous son of a b****, sorry mother, a visit?". And in Act 3 it's "Yo Hawke, I sold Bartands house, but the new owner is complaing about demons and ghosts, and he's Antivan... could you lend me a hand clearing out this mess?". I don't see a "I'm Bartrand's little brother! Look what I have to put up with here!" in any of those two quests.

Well I never said that the sidequest have an consequence, I just asked you what quests you meant since I was not sure what you meant with "meaningless sidequests". I thougth you just meant the fetch quests. So since I know what you meant now, I agree with you, however I think the problem is a lack of consequence in the game, not that the sidequests (the secondary ones) are bad. Mike Laidlaw said some time ago (paraphrased) "If we give you a choice we should also confront you with the consequence" and too "the easy answer would be to reduce choice, but that's not what we want to do". So I guess/hope that in DA3 this will be better.

With all DLC and all +% xp items you can even get level 29. So adding that with 3 skill tomes you can get over 30 skill points. Without Legacy the max level is 27, thus giving you 30 skill points. It's not BioWare's fault that you have choosen not to get all available xp. At lvl 23 you should have 26 talent points. That can be 8 to elemental to max it, 5 to creation to get upgraded Haste (thus all you really want from the creation tree, since you need Heal + Heroic Aura to get it), 5 into Force mage to get Gravitic Ring + Upgraded Pull of the Abyss and 7 into bloodmagic to get what you want and 1 for Rock Armor.
So with your level you could had the important spells of 4! skill trees. And an one level wonder.

[Macropodmum]

andraip wrote...

 But I think the secondary quests were well done, like the Bone Pit storyline, it let you feal important owning half a gold mine and beeing the one who keeps the mine going, imo.

I have to disagree with this one.  At first I was kind of excited I was going to be co-owner of the bone pit but it amounted to nothing, even owning it outright after it was given to you in lieu of earnings amounted to nothing.  To me it was just another unfinished dead end in Hawkes life.

[Foolsfolly]

Character development was very poor. If you thought Meredeth and Ordino were well developed characters, then I'm going to politely disagree and keep other thoughts on this subject to myself out of politeness. The party character development was also lacking. Aveline for example never really develops at all. She stays as the same tough girl with a mending heart throughout the entire game with brief moments of optimism every now and then. Being exactly the same throughout the entire game is not development, brother. And that's just one example. Look at Varric. He tells you right at the start he's not happy with his little brother role. And everything involving him in quests comes back to him being unhappy with his little brother role. He's the exact same character from start to finish. Where is the development?

The baddies have no development. I feel the Arishok, who never once changes his mind on anything and is as static as can be from the moment you see him until you dispatch him, was developed far more than Orisino or Meredith. In fact, I didn't know there names after beating the game. I knew one as a First Enchanter and the other was the Knight Commander, titles I learned back in Origins.

Aveline's growth over that time in Kirkwall is a small one. She either becomes the person she wanted to be (Guard-Captain) or what her father expected her to be (Knight) depending on your Friendship/Rivalry score. This thing is really stupidly easy to miss, especially so back during the days when there was a glitch and you never got her talk about her father. (This game was terribly buggy and it's a crime too since all my full playthroughs happened back when there were broken quests, dialogue strings that didn't work, cutscenes that didn't start, and companions who slowed your speed down to a crawl permanently. Whoever the hell does quality control was asleep or this was rushed out so damn fast and so damn cheaply that I don't want a DA3 if it's development is handled in the same fashion.)

But the biggest they touch on it is with the shield gift you give her... which is also something you could miss, come to think about it.

Varric has no arc. I can't tell you a single arc. He's Indiana Jones or Batman he's static. He's Varric 7 years ago and he's still just as much a Varric three years later. I like him so I don't care.

Companion characters were damn well handled. They all had strong personalities, they each and their own voice, and while Varric is unchanging the others at least end up questioning their prior beliefs. And I have to say, is it so wrong that Varric doesn't change? Sherlock Holmes never changed. If you watch any sit-com or cop show those characters never change. I think it would only be unacceptable if the character was aggravating and annoying. Varric isn't. He's the most likable person in the game.

And that's not just me talking, there was a massive poll off-site and he was the easy favorite.

I wasn't talking about personality. I was talking about character development. Varric's personality doesn't have much to do with the fact that every time he opens his mouth to you for one of his quests, it's always "I'm Bartrand's little brother! Look at what I have to put up with here!" No, that's just a result of zero development. He stays the exact same guy from start to finish.

I still say that character development, while nice and generally good writing, isn't always required. James Bond laughs at your idea of development.

I have to disagree with this one. At first I was kind of excited I was going to be co-owner of the bone pit but it amounted to nothing, even owning it outright after it was given to you in lieu of earnings amounted to nothing. To me it was just another unfinished dead end in Hawkes life.

To me it felt like a broken ass quest. Cheap and terrible and with no point at all. It felt like they were going somewhere with that... and then the game had to come out next week! Throw a Dragon in there and call it a day! No dialogue or anything!

[Foolsfolly]

Oh, otherwise, OP, I agree with you.

1- Yeah, they wanted to do a refugee story about a rise from nothing to power. Then they gimped that with no choices, no power, and making you a noble by birth (no rise if its a birthright) and then Champion without Hawke earning it or striving for it.

2- I'd like Spec's to have more a story purpose. That'd be neat. But at the rate this series is going I'd rather them focus on other more important things first. And besides, I could see a fan-backlash over making their good guy paragon like rogue having to kill innocents to get the best Rogue spec in the game (Assassin).

3- I disagree with companions. It felt more like their game and story than it did Hawke's. I agree with Orsino and Meredith, however. For the final bads they have absolutely no character and should have been introduced far earlier in the story. In general the plot WAS a scattershot three DLC type thing instead of a complete narrative whole. Which isn't a good thing.

4- The Mage debate was a great idea, execution wasn't.

5- Discussed last post.

6- I think it would have had a better New Game+ than ME2, where you're level 30 and cannot upgrade anything ever again. Not so fun, even if a difficulty hike. But I don't think DA2 would have had an enjoyable NG+ on the sheer fact that one of the reasons you do games like that is both the leveling and the equipping your character and team. And loot is trash in DA2. There's a few "must haves" for each class and then everything else is sell to the vendors.

So while it would have benefited from a NG+ I don't think it would have gained much. Just the opportunity to max out all skills, which I'm indifferent to.

Modifié par Foolsfolly, 10 septembre 2011 - 11:30 .

[The Xand]

Indoctrination wrote...

Character development was very poor. If you thought Meredeth and Ordino were well developed characters, then I'm going to politely disagree and keep other thoughts on this subject to myself out of politeness. The party character development was also lacking. Aveline for example never really develops at all. She stays as the same tough girl with a mending heart throughout the entire game with brief moments of optimism every now and then. Being exactly the same throughout the entire game is not development, brother. And that's just one example. Look at Varric. He tells you right at the start he's not happy with his little brother role. And everything involving him in quests comes back to him being unhappy with his little brother role. He's the exact same character from start to finish. Where is the development?

You must have missed out on the companion sidequests. Aveline comes to terms with having been forced out of her homeland and euthanising her husband by coming to accept her new home in Kirkwall and not only rising to power but finding a new husband that respects and loves her. Varric seemed only mildly put out at being the little brother to begin with but ended up outperforming his older brother and in my run through had his brother placed into a sanitorium and took over the family business. You're an idiot if you think character development means a total utter about turn of character, it's about taking these existing characters and running through their problems with them, not about completely changing who they are.


1: Hawke started off as a peasant refugee from Ferelden and ended up not just reclaiming his nobility but ending up as the Champion of Kirkwall and depending on your choice the Viscount himself. Quite the stunning rise to power imo, but I'm sorry if you were expecting to ascend to godhood.

2: You choose your primary specialisation at the beginning of the game, ie Rogue, Mage or Warrior. Everything after that is just a mere continuity of that, you specialising more in that class as it were and it does indeed define you since it radically alters your play style.

3: They were introduced well enough at the end of Act 2, and while they might have been introduced a little earlier it wouldn't have made much sense for them to come to the character's attention since the main trouble was directed at the Qunari. Loghain only really made a brief appearance at the beginning of Dragon Age Origins and then disappeared for most of the game only appearing at the end to lose the Landsmeet.

4: As to Orsino flipping out, well why the hell not? Post traumatic stress
disorder can affect even the best of us and he'd just seen the last of
the defending mages butchered.

5: See my earlier point about companion sidequests and character development.

6: I dunno what you were doing but I managed to max out three branches, though you're right in that they need to have another crack at reorganising it since you invariably end up with abilities that you don't want and will never use.

The Legacy DLC was quite fun, but a bit samey with multiple seemingly identical levels and then that stupid light orb puzzle thing at the end.

Modifié par The Xand, 11 septembre 2011 - 02:24 .

[naledgeborn]

I like #2 the most so I'll talk about that. Yes, I agree. And you have a great idea by linking a specialization to a side quest.

Ideally a branching main quest would become available at level 7. Say 3 different parties with different approaches have the same or conflicting interests during this main quest. Depending on how you handle said main quest or which faction you help you'll unlock a specialization for your protagonist. The person you "helped" can teach you the "basics" of the specialization. Two birds with one stone. If you chose to help, say the Blood mage, you'll get the spec unlocked and the decision will get flagged and reflected for the duration of your play through via dialogue and supporting cast.

See BioWare. Constructive criticism and a solution. Now here's to hoping this gets read by the developers.

[MichaelFinnegan]

Indoctrination wrote...

1. I think the developers either set their goals too high in the theme of the game or the marketing staff was right out deceptive. Dragon Age II was sold as a game about "Hawke's rise to power." It's a phrase we heard a hundred times during the marketing period.

It's a part of risk we as buyers have to factor in. And the learnings from this episode ought to influence our future buying decisions. It's the power that we as consumers have. There is really no need to whinge about it. Things tend to work out in the longer run, if one is careful enough next time.

What rise to power? Nothing Hawke ever does in the game gives him any kind of power, at all. At best, the end of act 2 makes it so people respect you, and that's it. At no point during the game does Hawke ever rise to power. The most we get is one ending where Hawke temporarily becomes Viscount but then vanishes. Even if that wasn't the case, I specifically remember developers promising us that decisions would matter in the game and not just in the epilogue. What happened? Ideally, Hawke should have been able to become Viscount at the end of act 2 and if so, act 3 should have put a lot of power into his hands with decisions radically changing how the acts flows in some cases. Does that require more time? Yes. Does it require more money to develop? Yes. If that's not practical, then you guys at BioWare shouldn't have made such bold claims about decisions mattering and our character's rise to power.

My own take on this is BioWare wanted to tell a story - their story, which just so happened to be a tragedy. And ignoring all the alleged marketing mischiefs for the moment, my best guess is Hawke becoming a Viscount at the start of Act 3 wouldn't have fit in very well with this story. Since the assumption from the beginning was that things were out of control - a car down a hill without brakes - Hawke becoming a Viscount and being powerless wouldn't have done much. If a strong decision-oriented storyline is what they wanted to do, then it should have been done from the groud up; something cannot be retrofitted all that well into somewhere it doesn't belong.

2. Why is it then that picking up specializations with Hawke is like picking up a ring or a helmet? Actually, in Dragon Age II the specializations don't even have to be unlocked, which means they actually require less effort on the player's part than a generic helmet or ring. Specializations should be linked to quests. You do a big side quest and at the end you make a decision where you can learn blood magic, for example. That would go a long way to making specializations an actually meaningful part of the story that's being told.

I agree with this one. Not only would I like specializations to be unlocked, I'd also like the game to react to my choice. At least, being a blood mage ought to be a very big deal in this game. I know it's going to be very costly in terms of development, but otherwise I think the player experience and immersion breaks to a great extent. Perhaps one can build a clever story to factor that in, without increasing too much the branching of plotlines and therefore costs.

3. Character development and the flow of the plot were terrible. Was I supposed to care about Meredith or Orsino, two characters whom I don't meet until the near end of the game? Even if their part in the story wasn't until the end, they still should have been in the earlier acts, in minor quests, cutscenes, etc. Proper character development doesn't happen over the course of a couple of 3 minute conversations at the end of the game.

Yep, very much so.

Imaging if in Origins, Loghain didn't show his face at all during the plot until the Landsmeet.

Loghain was factored into the plot from the very beginning - his treachery evident, his reasons not so much. And we get to know his reasons as the story unfolds, and a way to influence him opens up, with some complex interrelationships on earlier decisions and other characters developed/influenced by the PC. He is handled very much differently than Alistair or any of the other companions. The thing though is comparing Loghain to Meredith/Orisino isn't all that fair. What we should also be doing is comparing Loghain with, say, Fenris or Anders.

We get to meet Meredith and Orsino at the end of Act 2. I don't have a major complaint about that. But the thing is that Act 3 never made such a strong impression on me - it all seemed squished together with some random mage-templar "kill" plots. It all seemed to blur together in speed, with only the combat stretching things. The elements have to tie intelligently into the plot to make the characters, villians or heros, to be believable. The story greatly suffers overall on account of this, I think.

I just want to briefly mention how even if you side with the mages, Orsino still goes insane and turns himself into a monster? WHY? If you sided with the mages, he isn't backed into a corner. Immediately before the transformation scene, your side won a big battle. The momentum is with the mages. Why would he possibly turn himself into the Harvester and justify it as some sort of act of desperation when the momentum of the conflict has shifted in his favour?!?!!?!?! Why, why, WHY?!

I felt Orsino's actions were a lot more believable than Meredith's (I'll get to Meredith in a moment). What you're assuming above is that Orisino cared more about winning the battle or about self-preservation or even about Hawke. What if that wasn't the case? Before he turns into the said monster, we see him briefly glimpse at all of his fallen mages - his brethren. I can imagine the amount of grief that scene must have caused him, having been locked up all those years in a prison, having really cared about all those mages - his apprentices and fellow companions. If a man loses such a value in life - indeed the only thing he seemingly valued - he either loses all hope in life, or retribution becomes his only redeeming factor, seeing how he thinks he failed them. He just chose the latter - and how! Stitch together a harvester like thing with all the dead mages!

And why now assume having Hawke or Hawke's companions at his side would have mattered much to him? Weren't you just now saying how little time Hawke spent with Orsino for either of them to have known or cared about each other?

Anway, the issue is actually Meredith for me. "The Champion has to die!!" I was like - huh, what? why? It was like a RoA for the rogue Hawke this time. Just because I sided with the mages? Well... I'll give her that one. Cullen was a lot more sensible - their initial agreement supposedly was to take Hawke in.

To be honest, the entire 3rd act felt like it was rushed and not even completed. It feels like half of the plot is missing. The half which makes the half we were given make sense. If everyone loses their minds and have to be put down regarldess of what I do, then why should I, the player, care about the decsions I have to make?

The only decisions that truly matter I suppose, in the context of what you bring up, is how Hawke's own character develops in the hands of the PC. The game world is... very rigid... to say the least.

In DA2 the character development felt like Mass Effect 2, which is not the way to go, in my opinion. First conversation --> Second conversation --> Quest --> Third conversation --> Quest --> Conclusion. And that's it for the entire game. DA2 only differs from ME2 in that it generally adds one extra quest in the middle. Really now. Can any writer on the team really claim this is the only way characters can be developed?

I honestly felt ME2 did the party members thing well - in that what you're bringing up above didn't matter all that much to me because it seemed to progress well. But the issue there I felt was the main story took kind of a backseat. The Collector threat - no wait! I still have a disloyal party member over here I have to sort out first.

The talent trees were really well done in DA2,

Were they? Hmm. I know it is perhaps less costly now with DA2 in reaching the talent of interest, but well it doesn't make sense even now. There are some random skills I still have to get which don't seem to have that much of a relationship with the ones I do want to get. I don't know why they can't build simpler trees. One line of talents - the cold line, the spirit bolt line, etc. You just pick whichever you want, without being forced to get something else. For instance the rogue Dual Weapon tree could have been built this way:
line #1: backstab -> perforate -> murder, or backstab -> murder -> perforate
line #2: lacerate -> maim
line #3: unforgiving chain -> explosive strike -> merciless strike
line #4: twin fangs -> reversed grip

Each line above is independent and each talent can be level-locked of course. Develop a tree enough and you get a bonus - that will still work.

So the point is: why do I have to get backstab to get lacerate? Or unforgiving chain followed by explosive strike to get twin fangs? What's the link among them?

EDIT: Fixing formatting.

Modifié par MichaelFinnegan, 12 septembre 2011 - 09:40 .

[Maconbar]

People squawking about misleading marketing/advertising makes me giggle. I bought DA:2 because I thought it would help me with the ladies.