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[The Xand]

So...how exactly do the Grey Wardens know that the soul of an Archdemon will take over the body of the nearest darkspawn and transform it? And if the Archdemon's soul attempts to move into the body of the nearest darkspawn because they're soulless, why would it choose to move into the body of the Grey Warden that killed it if there's already a soul in it? Would it not make more sense to try to take over the body of a fullblooded darkspawn and not just some half-ghoul? Also the Grey Wardens state that as a fact, but there doesn't seem to be any actual cases of an Archdemon taking over the body of a darkspawn and reshaping it, so if it's never happened how do they *know* that's what will happen?

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

The First Blight.

The archdemon kept hopping bodies, darkspawn to darkspawn, until the Grey Wardens were created. I guess they knew they'd found the way to beat the archdemon when it stopped reincarnating after one of them killed it and died in the process.

[thats1evildude]

The Xand wrote...

And if the Archdemon's soul attempts to move into the body of the nearest darkspawn because they're soulless, why would it choose to move into the body of the Grey Warden that killed it if there's already a soul in it?

The Archdemon's essence merely seeks out the nearest host body that has the darkspawn taint. If that happens to be the Grey Warden that killed it, then that's where it will go.

Modifié par thats1evildude, 11 septembre 2011 - 05:22 .

[The Xand]

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

The First Blight.

The archdemon kept hopping bodies, darkspawn to darkspawn, until the Grey Wardens were created. I guess they knew they'd found the way to beat the archdemon when it stopped reincarnating after one of them killed it and died in the process.

It's odd that the game doesn't at least mention that though, or that the Archdemon had been slain multiple times.

thats1evildude wrote...

The Archdemon's essence merely
seeks out the nearest host body that has the darkspawn taint. If that
happens to be the Grey Warden that killed it, then that's where it will
go.

Surely it would be more drawn to an actual darkspawn though because it would have the highest concentration of taint? Also the darkspawn might be mindless beasts, but I doubt very much they genuinely don't have souls. They are capable of forging their own weaponry and armour and carrying out organised invasions, which is more than can be said for animals.

Modifié par The Xand, 11 septembre 2011 - 07:24 .

[GSSAGE7]

The Xand wrote...

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

The First Blight.

The
archdemon kept hopping bodies, darkspawn to darkspawn, until the Grey
Wardens were created. I guess they knew they'd found the way to beat the
archdemon when it stopped reincarnating after one of them killed it and
died in the process.

It's odd that the game doesn't at least mention that though, or that the Archdemon had been slain multiple times.

Urthemiel, the archdemon that is active in Origins, was only slain the
one time you manage to do it. I think there's a codex entry that says
that normal people tried to kill Dumat, but he always came back, and
that's one reason people knew he was the Old God.

The Xand wrote...

thats1evildude wrote...

The Archdemon's essence merely
seeks out the nearest host body that has the darkspawn taint. If that
happens to be the Grey Warden that killed it, then that's where it will
go.

Surely it would be more drawn to an actual darkspawn though because it would have the highest concentration of taint? Also the darkspawn might be mindless beasts, but I doubt very much they genuinely don't have souls. They are capable of forging their own weaponry and armour and carrying out organised invasions, which is more than can be said for animals.

True, they can make weapons and armor, but if you ever look at the tiers of darkspawn weapons, compared to the stuff made by other races, you'll see that darkspawn's weapons... aren't nearly as good. Also, darkspawn can't carry out organized invasions without an archdemon (who does have a soul), to guide them.

[The Xand]

GSSAGE7 wrote...

Urthemiel, the archdemon that is active in Origins, was only slain the
one time you manage to do it. I think there's a codex entry that says
that normal people tried to kill Dumat, but he always came back, and
that's one reason people knew he was the Old God.

You know, if you could let me know what codex entry that is that'd be brilliant since I must have overlooked it or forgotten which one it was.

This web page has most of the Dragon Age codexes http://da-codex.appspot.com/

GSSAGE7 wrote...True, they can make weapons and armor, but if you ever look at the tiers of darkspawn weapons, compared to the stuff made by other races, you'll see that darkspawn's weapons... aren't nearly as good. Also, darkspawn can't carry out organized invasions without an archdemon (who does have a soul), to guide them.

I still think that the capacity to forge weaponry speaks of sentient enough intelligence to merit their having souls.

Another interesting thing is that if the Archdemon's retain enough sentience to plan and organise invasions why do they invariably do just that every single time? One would have thought they'd at least bide their time until more Old Ones have been tainted and brought to bear. Still, I always got the impression that the Archdemons had been driven to insanity by their corruption, and I'm pretty sure there's something about the Architect having failed to make an archdemon as sentient as himself.

[LT123]

Here's the codex entry about people trying to kill Dumat and faililng. http://dragonage.wik...ntry:_Archdemon

Modifié par LT123, 12 septembre 2011 - 02:34 .

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

LT123 wrote...

Here's the codex entry about people trying to kill Dumat and faililng. http://dragonage.wik...ntry:_Archdemon

The relevant piece of info is only received when you speak to Riordan, apparently. So I'm wondering how well known that info truly is, outside the Grey Wardens (still, fact is they have known it works since that time).

Modifié par Shadow of Light Dragon, 12 septembre 2011 - 03:27 .

[Corker]

I'm not a theologian, but I am fairly well-read on medieval occultism. The mind and the soul are different things: the mind exists with the body, in time, while the soul is immortal and eternal. They're connected, of course, but they're not the same.

I think it may be better to use the less loaded word "essence," which is something Riordan uses (I think interchangably with 'soul'). I suspect it has something to do with the ability to connect to the Fade (spirit world) which the Thedan races can (or, in the case of dwarves, maybe could in the past, see DA2). Darkspawn magic comes from the taint, not the Fade, and that seems like it might be significant.

(If I thought these things were actually considered by the creators, and I don't.)

[gandanlin]

The Xand wrote...

So...how exactly do the Grey Wardens know that the soul of an Archdemon will take over the body of the nearest darkspawn and transform it? And if the Archdemon's soul attempts to move into the body of the nearest darkspawn because they're soulless, why would it choose to move into the body of the Grey Warden that killed it if there's already a soul in it? Would it not make more sense to try to take over the body of a fullblooded darkspawn and not just some half-ghoul? Also the Grey Wardens state that as a fact, but there doesn't seem to be any actual cases of an Archdemon taking over the body of a darkspawn and reshaping it, so if it's never happened how do they *know* that's what will happen?

Is it not said that the Joining ritual requires not just the darkspawn blood that the Wardens collected in the Korcari Wilds, but also a drop of blood from a previously killed Archdemon?  (Riordin, I think, says something to that effect when the Wardens first encounter him.)

So -- my theory is --  that drop of Archdemon blood makes the Warden who kills an Archdemon  the most compelling target to be taken over.  Like draws like, in terms the magic involved.

Modifié par gandanlin, 12 septembre 2011 - 07:49 .

[thats1evildude]

The Xand wrote...

Surely it would be more drawn to an actual darkspawn though because it would have the highest concentration of taint?

Why? Why should it? The Grey Wardens share the same link to the Archdemon as the darkspawn. What does the amount of taint in their veins have to do with it?

You're assuming that the Archdemon picks and chooses its next host upon death. But you have no basis for that theory. The evidence suggests the Archdemon's essence is drawn to the closest living vessel with the darkspawn taint unless it is magically compelled to find another host, such as Morrigan's child. There's no thought behind it.

If you can provide actual evidence of why it should work another way, prove me wrong.

Modifié par thats1evildude, 13 septembre 2011 - 05:49 .

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

gandanlin wrote...

Is it not said that the Joining ritual requires not just the darkspawn blood that the Wardens collected in the Korcari Wilds, but also a drop of blood from a previously killed Archdemon?  (Riordin, I think, says something to that effect when the Wardens first encounter him.)

That's been debunked by the devs. Archdemon blood is not required, just darkspawn blood of sufficient taint potency/concentration (not to be confused with 'just drink moar blood'). A drop of archdemon blood apparently grants that potency, but there are other methods.

[gandanlin]

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

gandanlin wrote...

Is it not said that the Joining ritual requires not just the darkspawn blood that the Wardens collected in the Korcari Wilds, but also a drop of blood from a previously killed Archdemon?  (Riordin, I think, says something to that effect when the Wardens first encounter him.)

That's been debunked by the devs. Archdemon blood is not required, just darkspawn blood of sufficient taint potency/concentration (not to be confused with 'just drink moar blood'). A drop of archdemon blood apparently grants that potency, but there are other methods.

I've never heard anything to the effect that the devs have done that.  Maybe you could provide us a link to where the "debunking" occurred...?

Meanwhile, I will continue to believe what was spoken by Riordin when the Wardens freed him from Arl Howe's dungeon:  that a drop of Archdemon blood was used in the Joining ritual. 

Of course, if other information is provided showing dev debunking I will happily stand corrected.

[Brian Lewis]

@greengoron89: I think it's less a case of Dumat surviving the killing blow and more misidentification. The codex does state that after a Blight, scholars identify the Archdemon through research and debate. They may have just guessed wrong and it wasn't Dumat that was killed.

[Last Darkness]

SPOILERS!!!!








Appearantly the First Corrupted Magisters can do this body hoping trick as well and can take over bodies with souls in them.

Also according to alot of esoteric lore they still dont know if the first archdemon was actualy Dumat. It was never confirmed.

[animefan]

My question is what makes the conception of a child more powerful than the pull of the taint? Is it because the child will eventually be born with the taint, or is it the potential to craft something into a new image?

[thats1evildude]

I believe that the Archdemon's soul being drawn to Morrigan's child actually has something to do with the Dark Ritual itself. Although we don't see a ritualistic component, keep in mind that this a magical sex rite; the fact that sleeping with Morrigan on the eve of battle carries a 100 per cent chance of conception by itself implies that there is something mystical going on. The Dark Ritual somehow "prepares" Morrigan's unborn child to draw fthe Archdemon's essence like a magnet, no matter where the witch may be on the battlefield.

Modifié par thats1evildude, 21 septembre 2011 - 05:55 .

[animefan]

Seems a good theory but that poor tired soul. I left Morrigan down at the gates last time. The soul must have had quite a journey to get there.

[Last Darkness]

After re-reading the novels im starting to wonder what effects Morrigan x Alistair Dark Ritual would have for the story as thats such a unlikly outcome and the Dragon Soul Child would also have the Blood of Calanhad the King (And of course 2 generations of Grey Warden Blood and Elf/Human Blood in the mix)