56 réponses à ce sujet

[knosaj]

just getting started with NWN and not familiar with party member interaction / control.

it is obvisiously not baulders gate where you can pause, then assign a specific action for each party member. I can seem to get my merc to do anything specific. is this not possible? -also, i havent quite reach that point, but what is the max party members i can have?


----anyone know where i can buy a PC version of baulders gate that will work with W7, 64 bit? so far i like BG so much more.


thanks in advance!

[HipMaestro]

Use your radial control to instruct them to guard, stand ground, attack nearest, etc.  Also, if they have any special abilities, they will show up there as well. That's about all the control you will have unless you install Tony K's Custom AI which provides some more control.  Spellcasting henchfolk are notoriously difficult to control in NWN.

In the OC (no inventory control in vanilla) & SoU (inventory control) you get to control one henchman/woman.  In HotU (inventory control), you can hire two.  There are also a few situations in SoU and HotU that your party will grow slightly but only temporarily. Spellcasters and UMD users can summon help via spells.  Ranger, druids, sorcs & wizs can summon a familiar/companion.  There are some custom utilities that you can install to make the experience more BG-like but keep in mind that there will only be RP-type interactions with the designed henchmen and not the custom-made ones.

There are also some custom modules (like the Ultima series) that have designed larger parties into the NWN fabric.

Modifié par HipMaestro, 11 septembre 2011 - 03:40 .

[knosaj]

spellcasters...tell me about it. i couldnt figure out how to access his spells and we both died very quickly. i like full control of the party. not realistic of coarse, but i like the control anyway.

i can even figure out how to give the hench/person, potions or scrolls or the like.

ill keep plugging it out a while, maybe the game will grow on me.

[WebShaman]

You can also put the radial controls directly to your action bar - just right click and assign the desired action for your companion.

I personally dislike the way NWN did party control, myself. It would have been better with possession ala NWN2, no doubt about it. The closest one gets to a real party is OldMansBeard's OHS (download from the Vault).

I wonder if one could redo the Wizard familiar to be an actual character race (like human) and be an actual class (or combination thereof)...that would give one at least two party members that one could control (possess). The downside is one would have to be a Wizard, of course...

[Shadooow]

knosaj wrote...
i can even figure out how to give the hench/person, potions or scrolls or the like.

Now this is simple, just drag potion from your inventory onto target portrait. You can heal/boost even summoned creature like this. Its a bit impracttical of course. Better way is healing kits, you can drag them into your quickslot and then if you use it you will get targetting curson and now you can target anyone from your party. Your character will then go near target and try to heal him. Thats more or less everything you can do in NWN OC.

In HotU campaign (maybe SoU as well?) you get full access into henchman's inventory. So you can at least control what weapon he uses and you can give him some potions he may use. With a little modification I think this feature might be possible to add into NWN OC as well. Lmk if interested.

Modifié par ShaDoOoW, 11 septembre 2011 - 04:37 .

[jmlzemaggo]

You could find Tony K's AI in my list in my signature. Which is going to give you a much better control over your(s) henchie(s), and access to their inventory. Plus making everyone around way smarter, including henchies and foes.
I wouldn't recommend using a spellcaster as a henchy, since even with TK's AI, they behave like dummies.
With time, you should be able to have your henchies do what you want them to do.
Almost... ;-)
And that's BG which brought me to NWN too. And I love both.

Modifié par jmlzemaggo, 11 septembre 2011 - 05:23 .

[Shadooow]

TK AI gives access into henchman inventory even in OC?

Is there any reason why this feature wasnt allowed? I mean, are there any issue that could raise when you would take for example dont they have any quest related items on them?

[HipMaestro]

knosaj wrote...
spellcasters...tell me about it. i couldnt figure out how to access his spells and we both died very quickly. i like full control of the party. not realistic of coarse, but i like the control anyway.

Well, there are a few tricks that you can use in the standard version NWN to control some of the actions of spellcasters.  In HotU, the AI control is a bit better, but in the OC there is little you can do with Boddyknock so he seldom gets used AFAIK.

You can do things once you gain complete access to a spellcasters inventory (SoU & HotU): you can load their inventory with offensive spell scrolls and wands that they can use.  The main problem with that is that they kinda go berzerk like a kid with a new toy when you do that.  They'll usually exhaust all of them in a single battle but at least they won't just stand there buffing themselves while the battle rages on. If you have a liberal sense of humor, it is actually pretty funny to watch their behavior (at least the AI designer's version) as long as your party isn't suffering because of it. watch out for those fireball spams on hardcore. Ouch!

Another method is to remove any melee weapons and shields FROM THEIR ENTIRE INVENTORY, if applicable to that class.  Then equip them with a range weapon.  Please don't ask me why this works but it does.  The standard AI will force them to stick to the range attack rather than spellcasting as long as the ammo holds out.  With a melee weapon equipped they will normally resort to spellcasting until spells have been exhausted and then try to melee.  If equipped with only a shield they will try to punch *lol*. In HotU, there is a much better dialog-driven way to set up your control so you will need to muddle along with the OC until you get to the expansions or using the custom AIs.

There is no direct way to select which offensive spells they will use, though buffing spells are pretty manageable in HotU.  There is also no way to control which spells they select during level-up.

Modifié par HipMaestro, 11 septembre 2011 - 08:30 .

[HipMaestro]

ShaDoOoW wrote...

TK AI gives access into henchman inventory even in OC?

Yes.  Which is/was the original advantage of using it.

Is there any reason why this feature wasnt allowed? I mean, are there any issue that could raise when you would take for example dont they have any quest related items on them?

Probably just a matter of expediency, ShaDoOoW. If you remember back when earlier versions were being addressed by Bioware they were really overwhelmed getting patches out quickly that addressed the vanilla performance and balancing.  Since they already had built the inventory control into SoU and HotU they would have needed to implement into the OC as a discrete effort... i.e. resources.  If they were still patching today, I have no doubt that feature would have have been back-engineered into the OC.


One question I did have about the inventory for TK users...
Does the inventory of the henchperson that was in place at the end of a chapter show up at the beginning of the next chapter or does it go *poof*.?  I always suspected there was scripting needed in the module to carry the inventory contents forward and didn't know whether TK's AI furnished this somehow.

Modifié par HipMaestro, 11 septembre 2011 - 08:25 .

[Shadooow]

HipMaestro wrote...

Is there any reason why this feature wasnt allowed? I mean, are there any issue that could raise when you would take for example dont they have any quest related items on them?

Probably just a matter of expediency, ShaDoOoW. If you remember back when earlier versions were being addressed by Bioware they were really overwhelmed getting patches out quickly that addressed the vanilla performance and balancing.  Since they already had built the inventory control into SoU and HotU they would have needed to implement into the OC as a discrete effort... i.e. resources.  If they were still patching today, I have no doubt that feature would have have been back-engineered into the OC.

Great thats what I want to hear, so I will add this feature into my unofficial patch. Just wasnt sure if its not disable for any reason as I already run into issues with few features like this.

Modifié par ShaDoOoW, 11 septembre 2011 - 10:03 .

[Mystery X]

ShaDoOoW wrote...

TK AI gives access into henchman inventory even in OC?

Is there any reason why this feature wasnt allowed? I mean, are there any issue that could raise when you would take for example dont they have any quest related items on them?

I think that allowing the henchmen in the OC to be able to upgrade their equipment might make the OC too easy.  It's a little bit frustrating not to be able to give a henchman equipment they could clearly use, but it caps their power.  The OC is great, but ultimately not too hard.  There's no reason to make it easier.

[Mystery X]

knosaj wrote...

spellcasters...tell me about it. i couldnt figure out how to access his spells and we both died very quickly. i like full control of the party. not realistic of coarse, but i like the control anyway.

i can even figure out how to give the hench/person, potions or scrolls or the like.

ill keep plugging it out a while, maybe the game will grow on me.

The game will grow on you.

Lack of more specific control of the henchmen is frustrating at first, but eventually you get used to it.

Typically, none of the offical campaigns really require you to have a specific character class in your party to succeed.  You don't really have to worry that, for exampe, that there are challenges that absolutely require you to have a sorceror or cleric (or if there are such challenges, they are optional, not necessary to the main plot).  So it shouldn't bother you to skip hiring a spellcaster in favor of say a fighter or rogue, whose combat roles are much more simple and don't require much micro-management.

Adding something like the TonyK AI will give you more options to control your henchmen, and will make your spellcasting henchmen smarter in they way they use their spells.  But since you are new to the game, I'd recommend skipping a complication like the TonyK AI right now, and focus on learning the basics of controlling henchmen through the radial menu.  It seems simple, but it really does take practice to figure out the combinations of using stand your ground and gaurd me and follow me to get your henchmen doing generally what you want.

[HipMaestro]

Mystery X wrote...
I think that allowing the henchmen in the OC to be able to upgrade their equipment might make the OC too easy.  It's a little bit frustrating not to be able to give a henchman equipment they could clearly use, but it caps their power.  The OC is great, but ultimately not too hard.  There's no reason to make it easier.

I quite agree as far as the combat balance is concerned, as it is based on less-than-ideal hench control, so along with a change in the inventory provisions, a similar change would need to be made to the encounters if one wants to retain the original level of combat challenge.  However, Tony K's AI allows the user to customize the challenge level according to an individual's taste, giving him/her the option to change the difficulty or not with the advanced AI.  In a similar fashion, those utilities that would increase the party size NEVER rebalance the module, yet some players like to experiment with all these options (including using the bleedin' console!).

It would be appropriate to at least pose a disclaimer for a patch like this that would alert the user to its limitation... no rebalancing and therefore perhaps not representative of what had been intended by the vanilla experience. As far as I am concerned, all these customizations fall under the same category... User Beware! Many new players don't even realize that the Normal difficulty setting is actually Easy and that Hardcore is Normal... but that doesn't stop them from enjoying the experience.

[jmlzemaggo]

TK's AI make the henchy's inventory available right from the first "Plague" OC, that's actually why I installed it in the first place, as our favorite mountain bear was saying earlier.
I don't remember if the inventories travel through the chapters. I would say yes? But I don't believe TK's AI's got anything to do with this anyway. Most of the time I'm packing my henchies equipments back in my own inventory before any major chapter transition, OCs or community modules.
Some authors take care of it, but a few.

Modifié par jmlzemaggo, 11 septembre 2011 - 11:37 .

[Mystery X]

Someone who has actually used TonyK's AI with the OC would know. But it's my understanding that the level-ups for henchmen in the OC are accomplished not by adding a level to the existing henchmen, but by removing the old henchman and replacing it with a brand new henchman (Tomi doesn't level up by adding a 7th level to his existing 6; Sixth Level Tomi is replaced by an entirely separate Seventh Level Tomi). So I would expect that inventory doesn't survive new levels for henchmen.

[HipMaestro]

Mystery X wrote...
Someone who has actually used TonyK's AI with the OC would know. But it's my understanding that the level-ups for henchmen in the OC are accomplished not by adding a level to the existing henchmen, but by removing the old henchman and replacing it with a brand new henchman (Tomi doesn't level up by adding a 7th level to his existing 6; Sixth Level Tomi is replaced by an entirely separate Seventh Level Tomi). So I would expect that inventory doesn't survive new levels for henchmen.

I'm fairly sure you're right, Mystery, and they store the hench version number as a variable, based on your PC's level.  They changed the level-up dynamic in the expansions to actually use a level-up template but the OC uses the 'ol 14 versions method.  I think you'd need to use jml's method to assure you don't lose the hench inventory during new chapter load... temp storage in your own PC's inventory.

There's only so much that TK's AI can control and transitioning hench NPCs to the next module of the OC isn't one of them.

[jmlzemaggo]

 I remember that as well, Mystery X. 100% correct here. It's a brand new henchy, so it's best to to safely store his equipment before any chapter transition. Now, I'm getting confused here, as I also remember something I found very interesting, still do, when the henchy levels-up in the OC: 
When your own PC is just about to levelup, get your henchy fully naked, and place every item around which could suit your henchy the best in his inventory. Then level-up yourself, so will your henchy but in choosing the best gear, ring, weapon... according to his very own specs. 
I learned a lot through about gear and choices by observing that system at work in my NWN youth. 

Modifié par jmlzemaggo, 13 septembre 2011 - 08:28 .

[jmlzemaggo]

There is something that I wish TK's AI or the regular bioware one could take care of: if you play a spellcaster, (cleric here) yourself, and buff up your henchy's scimitar wth a '+5 enhancement' and some 'dark fire' for instance, that henchy will not "see" that improvement, and switch to what he still but wrongly considers like his best weapon... a regular boring +0 Greatsword most of the time, as soon as the next fight starts. 

That still drives me n.... today. 

Modifié par jmlzemaggo, 13 septembre 2011 - 08:41 .

[Wids]

Spellcasting henchfolk are notoriously difficult to control in NWN.

Tell me about it.  If I had a dollar for every time that my pet succubus has zapped my cleric with Evard's Black Tentacles or Lightning Bolt, or every time that said succubus cast Black Tentacles on goblins or other Small or smaller creatures (who are immune to the spell), or every time that my pet water elemental has caught my cleric in her Ice Storm spells....

Now that I think about it, is there really much difference between the Attack Nearest, Follow and Guard Me commands?  They all result in my pets and henchies running off to attack the nearest enemy (or possibly the nearest, rather...), with the exception of Follow, where my pets and henchies will run back to me for about 1 entire second before charging right back at the bad guys, just in time to get caught in my cleric's Negative Energy Burst....

Yes, I know...spamming "V-E-E" over and over, blah blah blah.  I know that.  It's the only way I can get them to resist the urge to charge right at the enemy.  The alternative is the Stand Your Ground command, which, if you use it mid-battle, is a nice way to get your pets swarmed by a dozen ogres without raising a finger to defend themselves (or to defend you, if the ogres find your character a more attractive target instead).

[jmlzemaggo]

Wids wrote...
Now that I think about it, is there really much difference between the Attack Nearest, Follow and Guard Me commands?

Oh yes. Those work very fine with me. 
I use only "Stand" "Follow" & "Attack Nearest"(F10, F11 & F12 shortkeys) myself. 
It might depends on the module you're playing and if there is any specific AI included in it, but I'm getting better in my relation with my henchies now with these three orders only, as I wannna be the one unleaching their power. Always. Well, almost... 
They're always under "Follow" when approaching foes. Maybe since I play spellcasters such as you do quite often. And use them mostly as tanks. You might have to press 'F11' a few times more than it's necessary, but rarely. 
But I must say I find them reacting pretty well to my orders.  

Much better than the woman I love for instance. 

I tried duo-playing NWN with her once...  
Believe me, henchies obey. 

Modifié par jmlzemaggo, 16 septembre 2011 - 07:36 .

[Wids]

Mine give me trouble here and there.  Maybe the server which I usually play on messed with the AI, but I think it would be a huge goodie if, instead of Attack Nearest, we just had an Attack command where your pets attack whichever enemy you're highlighting at the time (and default to Attack Nearest if you're not highlighting anyone).  That way, I could command my pets to dogpile the Ogre Brute (and ignore the three or four Goblins until the Ogre Brute is dead) while I'm busy nuking and counterspelling the Ogre Mage behind him.  That would make such a magnificent difference if the Attack command worked that way.

And I just use the Voicechat commands on my pets: VEE for Follow, VWE for Attack Nearest, VWF for Guard Me and so on.  I've just about got all the Voicechat options memorized, including all of the pet commands.  It makes pet management a little easier, so I can spam VEE whenever my Skeleton Captain feels like running off and aggroing a mob that's better left unaggroed. 

Modifié par Wids, 16 septembre 2011 - 09:18 .

[HipMaestro]

Wids wrote...
And I just use the Voicechat commands on my pets: VEE for Follow, VWE for Attack Nearest, VWF for Guard Me and so on.  I've just about got all the Voicechat options memorized, including all of the pet commands.  It makes pet management a little easier, so I can spam VEE whenever my Skeleton Captain feels like running off and aggroing a mob that's better left unaggroed. 

A nifty method.  You must be good at RP. Takes some practice to get used to using it but frees up limited quickslots for spells, morphs & equipment swaps.

[Wids]

HipMaestro wrote...

A nifty method.  You must be good at RP.

Well, I do roleplay even when no one else is around (though more than one DM has sneaked up on me during those times, which always makes for a pleasant surprise when my cleric says "Ahoy" to a merchant and the merchant greets her back).  And I play that rare animal: a cleric who actually sets aside time to pray and commune with her goddess, which usually involves my cleric going to the beach, kneeling in the surf, dropping black pearls out of her Inventory into the sea and praying to Umberlee in the Aquan tongue.  And, true to Chaotic alignment, it's never the same prayer twice.

I've received a few compliments.

Thanky. 

Takes some practice to get used to using it but frees up limited quickslots for spells, morphs & equipment swaps.

That it does!  Clicking on the pet's portrait and using the radial menu is another easy way to command your pets, but Voicechat is still faster once you've practiced it enough.  Either way, you're right: quickslots are for spells, equipment and special abilities, not pet commands.

Modifié par Wids, 16 septembre 2011 - 11:11 .

[jmlzemaggo]

Wids wrote...
I think it would be a huge goodie if, instead of Attack Nearest, we just had an Attack command where your pets attack whichever enemy you're highlighting at the time...

That's very possible, as I already played a few community modules with that kind of feature, most of the time through some custom "usable" item in your inventory, specific to that module, allowing you to click on the target of your choice for your henchy to have a straight and personal chat with. 

Maybe ask at the "Module" Forum.
But 100% possible. 

Modifié par jmlzemaggo, 16 septembre 2011 - 12:28 .

[WebShaman]

All things good, but it is still a very poor substitute for the BG method, isn't it?