44 réponses à ce sujet

[Knight of Dane]

I create this thread as i have become interested to discuss how much of a impact our Hero from the first game had on the order s/he was supposed to be a part of.

CulturalGeekGirl wrote in another thread:"

Jennifer Brandis Helper wrote...
I struggle to stand, to open my eyes and face them like a man, not the chewed-up pile of hurlock spew I feel like. I can see them now. It's Rolan; of course it is. The price I had to pay for the Grey Wardens' generosity in recruiting me out from under the templars' noses. He was one of them, before his Chantry was destroyed by the darkspawn and he felt the calling to join the Wardens. No one ever said a deal had been struck, but as soon as the templars stopped their protests, Rolan turned up in the Wardens, and we've fielded every assignment together since. It's all too clear the templars sent him to keep watch.

What happens after that explains why he has such negative feelings about the Wardens, and why he ran. Now, this short story has a lot of problems. I can't comprehend how this happened on my Warden's watch... she would never let the templars touch Anders. I can only assume it was done behind her back, when she was away during Witch Hunt.

In a topic where the talk had again lead to Anders.

I like the point of "How much did our Hero know" as i agree that my Wardens would never had let the templars touch Anders too.
A couple of my heroes has both been mages, human, elven, dwarven, and from a roleplay perspective some of them have favoured the Chantry law, others have been pro mage, as Hawke in DA:2 can be, but none of them would turn over their fellow warden and friend to the power wanting to throw him in irons all over again.

What happened to our associotes? Our friends?
The question "What happened to the Warden?" Is heard often, what do you think?

I hope to hear some great points, alot of what goes on in DA:2 seems unclear. Who the hell is strout actually? What about Janeka and the Wardens surrounding Corypheus? What about our sibling that can become a warden?

What do we really know about them? As a fact our Hero was stranded as a sole of two surviving wardens where the other was no more trained in what a warden really was at all. It is first when the Expansion Awakening begins that the Wardens as a group is presented as you are requested to bolster the orders ranks.
Here there isn't much else to suggest the horrors the we are told that the Wardens is in DA:2.
Oghren has some nightmares, and i bet the others does too, but they never talk about it, any of them, not even jolly Anders which i'd have guessed would be the one of the whole group who would suffer most from those nightmares.

What has Nathaniel become? We meet him in the second game provided that we recruited him at all, he's working directly under the first warden at Weisshaupt. Does he know Strout?
What happened to Velanna and Sigrun? In legacy Anders will mention the dwarf of the two but only briefly.

Opinions?

Modifié par Knight of Dane, 11 septembre 2011 - 11:40 .

[Ashwraith]

I don't know what happened to the Warden canonically, of course, but I agree- if my Dalish rogue had been around while people were messing with her Wardens, there would have been HELL to pay.

I can only assume that she's off sipping chilled drinks on a beach,possibly somewhere in Antiva, and has no idea what's going on out there. Because really, who pays attention to work when they're on vacation? I mean, seriously?

Then she'll come home -even browner than usual, and smelling of piña colada-, to find that everything has gone to **** in her absence. I suspect that she may strangle the nearest available person with a flower garland, out of sheer frustration.

"I can't leave you people alone for FIVE MINUTES, can I?!"

Modifié par Ashwraith, 11 septembre 2011 - 11:54 .

[Quething]

Well, I know my Cousland would have slapped Anders stupid in the Deep Roads for refusing to explain to Hawke about the Joining and the Calling. She made no secret of that to any of her potential recruits, thought the way Duncan handled it was criminal, saw no difference between him and Caradin, and very much encouraged her people and everyone she met to spread the story of what Wardens really were. She's very up on informed consent, and intended to reform the organization as much as possible.

So it's clear to me that she's been out of the loop somehow, if Anders ended up with people who think "lolsecrets" is how things should be run and that templars get to bully Wardens in any way shape or form.

And, yeah, I'd say the organization on a whole does need reform. What we've seen of it is actually pretty sinister. They forcibly conscript the criminal and the desperate, they bargain with demons and dupe people into agreeing to a horrible price, they build prisons that any poor wandering innocent shmuck could get sucked into and threaten pregnant women to coerce the cooperation of mages in renewing it, they refuse to involve themselves in "politics" to the extent of walking away from innocents in the middle of a slaughter, they burn down cities with people in them so the darkspawn can't use the resources there (which makes no sense, but there you go).

They're apparently really good at PR, suckering people like Wynne and even Alistair, one of their own, into thinking there's some nobility there, but truth is, they're exactly what you'd expect from an organization with no oversight made up mostly of the criminal and the desperate. Selling out Anders to get the templars off their backs and make their jobs easier/reduce scrutiny to their order seems totally consistent with the "fight the Blight at any cost" mentality.

[CulturalGeekGirl]

I worry that the Wardens are currently too strongly beholden to the Chantry and Orlais, two entities I am very suspicious of, which are themselves very strongly linked. (Orlais killed Loghain's dog! Also his parents, but to steal a boy's dog, torture it to brink of death, and then dump it on his front doorstep? Maker's Breath, Orlais, you guys are dicks. And this is from someone who lets Alistair kill Loghain like 90% of the time.)

When the Wardens were truly independent, truly respected everywhere, I think they were probably truly great... they embodied the ideal that Alistair still holds them to. But the Chantry has become too powerful, and they have their hands in everything now, from preventing Alistair from granting the mage boon from Origins, to attempting to directly interfere with the Wardens. It has forced the Wardens to become political in a way that has seriously hurt their ability to function, I think.

[Melca36]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

I worry that the Wardens are currently too strongly beholden to the Chantry and Orlais, two entities I am very suspicious of, which are themselves very strongly linked. (Orlais killed Loghain's dog! Also his parents, but to steal a boy's dog, torture it to brink of death, and then dump it on his front doorstep? Maker's Breath, Orlais, you guys are dicks. And this is from someone who lets Alistair kill Loghain like 90% of the time.)

When the Wardens were truly independent, truly respected everywhere, I think they were probably truly great... they embodied the ideal that Alistair still holds them to. But the Chantry has become too powerful, and they have their hands in everything now, from preventing Alistair from granting the mage boon from Origins, to attempting to directly interfere with the Wardens. It has forced the Wardens to become political in a way that has seriously hurt their ability to function, I think.

I think its just the Orlesian Wardens that are tied to the Chantry.

And I truly believe this war will cause a division within the Wardens that that their so called Neutrality stance won't mean squat.

I can see the Orlesian Wardens splitting from the Wardens and calling themselves the Andrastrian Wardens.

[Avilia]

I have problems fitting the short story into the timeline. To get Anders to Kirkwall when he is there, I'd assume he'd have to be gone from the Vigil pretty soon after the Mother's death. If that's so, is the story what happens directly before he leaves? Is it the catalyst for his leaving?

If I'm right (not usually the case when it comes to these things) then its simply not possible that the PC warden wasn't aware of/involved in the events that led up to it.

I know trying to work out the timelines logically is a short road to madness but can anyone shed light on that for me?

As far as the Wardens as an organisation go, they seem to be being developed as some kind of covert group who's aims are political as much as anything. A lot of mystery added in DA2 and not much fact as far as I could see.

[CulturalGeekGirl]

Avila: Witch Hunt can be played after Awakenings. I think it's canonically the "bridging" story, so it's supposed to have happened between Awakenings and DA2. I think that entire mini-DLC takes a month or two to complete, story-wise.

In my head, that's when the stuff with Rolan went down. It also involves the Warden going off to go check something out and then not coming back for a while. If the other Wardens had already basically made the arrangements to let Rolan in and transfer Anders and were just waiting for the Warden to step out for a moment, that would make sense.

I had the impression that Witch Hunt is sort of like ME's Arrival: it depicts events that take place whether or not you actually play them. The timeline makes sense if the Warden departs for Witch Hunt just a few short weeks (or even merely days) after the Mother's death. It would also mean that Anders had only a very short period of peace and camaraderie with the other Wardens after the end of Awakening, so the fact that he doesn't have a ton of fond memories of the "good times" makes more sense, since it was basically straight from killing broodmothers to being brutally oppressed.

Modifié par CulturalGeekGirl, 12 septembre 2011 - 12:40 .

[Knight of Dane]

What about Velanna, Sigrun, Oghren or Loghain as wardens, my hope was originally that some of them would have a cameo in Legacy, but sadly that didn't happen.. :/

What'cha you guys think they are up to after all those years?

[Avilia]

That makes sense CGG. I still get timeline niggles but I'll ignore them for the sake of my sanity ;-)

[Knight of Dane]

I assume Golems of Amgarakk happened too canonically? I don't remember if it is ever mentioned and how long the timeline in that is anyway, but it needs to be done before witch hunt for imports sake.

[Heidenreich]

I.. don't believe Golems happened. At least Canonically. That would be a lot more time between Awakening and DA2.

We're told it took them two years to defeat the blight(arch-demon + awakening). That would mean, time line wise, two things happened.

1. It took the Hawke Family roughly 5-6 months to get to Kirkwall, total, including the trip to Gwarin and any lay-overs while waiting for a ship.

2. You actually spend closer to a year and a half in servitude to Athenril/Meeran.

This, right out of the gate, are the only two explanations as to WHY Anders would be in Kirkwall when he is, because Act 1 is the span of a few weeks - upwards of two months, but not possibly more.


That would mean that Anders was handed off to the templars as -soon- as your Warden leaves (To go back to being queen/king, or to go find Morrigan.) Which means that either your Warden knew, or Whiassup did it behind their back. None of my Wardens would have been okay with it. my Cousland might have allowed it, but only if spoken to in just the right way about it.

"Oh he's a good kid, not all Chantry-crazed like some other ex-templars. I mean, you know.. he's quite a bit like your Alistair, now that I think about it," -- would be the only way she'd agree, and it'd only be after she spoken with Anders about it.

My Dalish? was actually my most level headed of all my girls, and the only one to actually stay a warden volentarily. Even still, she still would have shown them what it feels like to have an arrow in your ass ;p
.
My Tabris? Would have just had taken Anders with her to Antiva.

My Amell... would have blown up Ferelden before allowing it.

So they would have had to have done it when the Warden was gone, off to track Morrigan (which I always believe is at the order of Whiassup.) or back to being Queen/Mistress, or off to Antiva to kill every single Crow.

Modifié par Heidenreich, 12 septembre 2011 - 01:00 .

[RagingCyclone]

@Heidenreich--but isn't Awakening supposed to happen 6 months after the death of Archie? And I'm not sure how long that is supposed to last, so there is a definite timeline issue from one to the next. I have a hunch it's one of those handwaved things the devs mentioned in reference to Anders.

[Wulfram]

The Anders short story obviously didn't happen that way if he "died" at Vigil's keep. And his interaction with the Wardens doesn't to me fit the idea he killed a whole bunch of them when he left.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

None of my Wardens save one would have allowed the Chantry to stick its nose so blatantly in Warden business, period, because that would have been overstepping their bounds greatly. Since even my non-mage wardens came from less than legal and illustrious situations, Anders status as apostate wouldn't mean squat, given I've played a shamless kinslayer, a carta thug, and a less than honorable human noble, on top of mages.

When one joins the Wardens, they are supoosed to leave their past ties behind, and this goes both ways, including the other side. The past must also leave the Warden behind. And thus, the Chantry pushing an active, fully loyal to the Divine templar who is joining because they think they have the right to monitor Warden business is something none of my Wardens would have allowed, especially since there was no Blight at the time. If a templar recruit was offered, and exceptional enough to join the Wardens, then they would be recruited, but would also be required to give up their former ties and business with the Chantry, and have to accept that Wardens take all kinds, including maleficar and apostates. Anything to win.

[Heidenreich]

RagingCyclone wrote...

@Heidenreich--but isn't Awakening supposed to happen 6 months after the death of Archie? And I'm not sure how long that is supposed to last, so there is a definite timeline issue from one to the next. I have a hunch it's one of those handwaved things the devs mentioned in reference to Anders.

Yes, but the timeline doesn't match up.

You're fleeing Lothering after the Darkspawn sack it -- which is no more then a few weeks/a month after the Wardens leave.

Then, we're told that once we've reached the city, we've been in service to <insert side here> for a year. We also get the impression that Hawke/Sibling have been bashing their brains out for a couple months now to try and drum up money to keep them out of templar sights. You can Recruit Anders almost right away. Varric (and later Lirene) say that the GW in the city came in only a few weeks ago.

We get the impression that Anders/Justice have been a thing for a little while now. Maybe not ages and ages, but deffinately more then a few weeks.


If Awakening doesn't happen for 6 months after the Arch-Demon was killed, then it took much LESS time for the whole of Origins to take place then we're led to believe. A year, rather then a year and 6 months. Then 6 months of "rebuilding(lol)" and 6 months for Awakening. This would be the point that your warden would depart -- and I still would think there would be a couple weeks descrepency because your Warden would have to wait for a replacement (and I believe THIS would be Stroud). Mind you he could be "en-route" durring the whole of Awakening should your Warden have sent word to Whiassup (which seems logical) about what was happening.

That still means it would have taken 4- 6 months for the Hawke family to even GET to Kirkwall. Then another year and 6 months inside Kirkwall before we meet Varric. Roughly. For it to even make sense.

[Knight of Dane]

Also, Sandal in circle tower in Witch Hunt, he and Bodhan must've arrived in Kirkwall about the same time as Anders.

[Heidenreich]

Knight of Dane wrote...

Also, Sandal in circle tower in Witch Hunt, he and Bodhan must've arrived in Kirkwall about the same time as Anders.

Mm this too. Though I really believe that they go there durring the rebuilding/awakening year, and Sandal just hasn't left by the time you hit up the circle in Witch Hunt. I also get the feeling that Witch Hunt isn't much longer then two or three months, max. Also, that your warden was ordered there, personal reasons aside.As in, this is finally when Whiassup figures out that you're not lieing/figures out the truth and sends you to "reclaim dragon-god-baby" for study.

*nod*

[Knight of Dane]

It could be seen in a few ways, but when i played it as the Orlesian warden it really felt like this is "Official bizz!" and when i did it with my HoF's it was more like keeping an old promise to oneself, find Morrigan for love or revenge (perhaps both )

[cleosilver]

RagingCyclone wrote...

@Heidenreich--but isn't Awakening supposed to happen 6 months after the death of Archie? And I'm not sure how long that is supposed to last, so there is a definite timeline issue from one to the next. I have a hunch it's one of those handwaved things the devs mentioned in reference to Anders.

Awakenings has to be at least 6 months after the end of Origins since if you take the FCousland becoming Queen option she'd married to Alistair in Awakenings and the wedding is stated to be 6 months after the end of Origins.

[Heidenreich]

cleosilver wrote...

RagingCyclone wrote...

@Heidenreich--but isn't Awakening supposed to happen 6 months after the death of Archie? And I'm not sure how long that is supposed to last, so there is a definite timeline issue from one to the next. I have a hunch it's one of those handwaved things the devs mentioned in reference to Anders.

Awakenings has to be at least 6 months after the end of Origins since if you take the FCousland becoming Queen option she'd married to Alistair in Awakenings and the wedding is stated to be 6 months after the end of Origins.

Right, which is why I say, for the time line to fit in the first place, the actual Arch-demon-bit of the blight had to have been 6 months shorter then a lot of our head-canons allow.

If you start from Lothering -> Landsmeet, it would have to be a 10 month timeline. This gives a month for Ostigar -> Lothering, and one month from Landsmeet -> Attack on Denerim. Which is a year. Then add 6 months for recoup/wedding/reporting to Weisshaupt Fortress/what have you. Then Awakening (which spans another 6 months..roughly).

This makes Two Years. Which is what DA2 tells us is the lenght of time it took to stop The Fifth Blight.

Now to make Hawke's "pre-act 1" history fit, it would look like this:

Origins/DA2

• Month One, Ostigar and Flemith's Hut.
• Month Two (post Ostigar): Wardens arrive in Lothering. They stay (long enough to rest and resupply - so three days-a week). They go off to <insert your first quest>. Three weeks (give or take) later, the Darkspawn attack Lothering. Hawk Family Flees.
• Month Three - Six: Hawke Family + Flemeth and Aveline reach Gwaren, where they're forced to sit and idle a bit to wait for the next ship. They take ship. They land in Kirkwall. They gain the employ of <insert faction>. Warden is recruiting Mages(Templars)/Elves(Werewolves)/Dwarves.
• Months Seven - Eleven: Remainders of Orgins. Hawke and Co working for <insert faction> for 4 months
• Months Eleven -Twelve: Return to Redcliff, gather forces. Find out Archdemon isn't going that way, and Denerim is ****ed. March back, Archdemon dies.
• Recoup 6 months: Cousland gets married/rebuilding of denerim/Mourning loss of Warden or Alistair/ Ran off to Antiva/Reporting to Weisshaupt Fortress to be screamed at. ETC. Hawke and co now 10 months deep into their years service.

Awakening's 6 months

• Anders is Recruited
• Justice is Recruited
• <Others Recruited>
• One year servitude ends. Hawke and Co released from their contract. <Insert 'stays on for a while reguardless thx to paycheck/other head cannon>
• The Mother Killed.

And here, is the descrepency. Hawke and Co would have been released from their contract 3 months into Awakening. That means they had another three months of <still working/scrambling/picking their noses/joining the guard.> Which isn't nessisarly untrue, because this is the impression that we get.. that even after the contract ends, the faction of choice is all "Stay on, we'll pay. It'll be great, we love you!" and they do for a bit, but it eventually ends in an argument.

In fact we even see this play out via the letter you get from your faction when you first go home. K, no problems here.

The problem, is that -if- Awakening lasted 6 months, then we'd need a 4th, maybe even a 5th month of Hawke doing.. not stuff we get to see or hear about.. while we waited for Anders to get Justice'fied and short-storied, run away on a boat, and land in Kirkwall.

Which, again, isn't nessiarily broken, because again, it's just possible that Hawke and Co have been spending their money at The Blooming Rose (well, carver at least ) and trying desperately for work, but outside of <insert faction> no one will hire them. Thus they get desperate and more desperate and still mroe desperate till they're all "HEY DEEP ROADS" and fall all over Bartrand... and Varric.



SEE SO IT DOES WORK. There's just more time then it seems. 

[Wulfram]

I don't think it's that problematic to say that the royal marriage gets bumped forward or something. More difficult is the necessary time for Oghren to have a baby

[Heidenreich]

Maybe Dwarves dont gestate as long as humans? It wouldn't surprise me, they're smaller.

Modifié par Heidenreich, 12 septembre 2011 - 07:11 .

[LobselVith8]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

I worry that the Wardens are currently too strongly beholden to the Chantry and Orlais, two entities I am very suspicious of, which are themselves very strongly linked. (Orlais killed Loghain's dog! Also his parents, but to steal a boy's dog, torture it to brink of death, and then dump it on his front doorstep? Maker's Breath, Orlais, you guys are dicks. And this is from someone who lets Alistair kill Loghain like 90% of the time.)

When the Wardens were truly independent, truly respected everywhere, I think they were probably truly great... they embodied the ideal that Alistair still holds them to. But the Chantry has become too powerful, and they have their hands in everything now, from preventing Alistair from granting the mage boon from Origins, to attempting to directly interfere with the Wardens. It has forced the Wardens to become political in a way that has seriously hurt their ability to function, I think.

I don't think that's the case. The Hero of Ferelden can become the new Arl of Amaranthine and the Warden-Commander, even if he's from the Circle of Ferelden. Considering that this goes against Chantry law, I don't imagine that the Chantry has control over the Grey Wardens, especially when Cassandra points out that the Wardens prevented her order from investigating the fortress in Legacy. 

Preventing the Magi boon is one thing, because the Chantry controlled Circles aren't under the juristiction of the kingdoms, but I don't see the short story making sense by allowing a templar into the order: Anders isn't the first mage who is allowed into the Grey Wardens, after all. The Warden-Commander would have say over the issue, and I don't see a pro-mage Warden-Commander bending knee to the templars (especially one who asked for his people to be given their indepenence). Even Anders' ability to have a sword shoved into his chest in the short story (which is done by Rolan) is disregarded in Dragon Age 2, since Hawke can kill Anders with a blade.

[Knight of Dane]

Heidenreich wrote...

Maybe Dwarves dont gestate as long as humans? It wouldn't surprise me, they're smaller.

Right, playing a dwarf in Origins can also lead to a baby either by your Noble Dwarf having one with the noble hunter or the dwarven commoner's sister getting one.
That's the time it takes to go to Ostagar with Duncan, get screwed by Loghain and getting back to Orzammar, which can be done right after exiting Lothering.

[Heidenreich]

Hawke can kill Anders with a blade because he's not all "OMG JUSTICE RAAWR" at the time, and he's voluntarily submitting to death. Silly ;p

As to weither the Warden is a proper warden.. well, I get the distinct impression that, hero of the blight or no, that the First Warden does not trust them. Would you?

A fresh recruit, and another one who had only been apart of the order for a few months manages to stop the Blight dead in its tracks... but only after causing a scene and completely taking over the Ferelden government? On top of which they managed, by themselves, to unite the whole of the peoples of Ferelden -- Dalish elves, Dwarves, the Circle of Magi, and ALL the human nobles?

And then, and THEN.. the two of them survive? (Or, one does, but EVEN STILL)When the only Senior Wardens in Ferelden are all dead? Duncan's dead, the wardens stationed in Ferelden are dead... even Riordan is dead.

To me, sending "The Warden" to head Amerantine is just step 1 in finding out who "The Warden" really is. Step two is Witch Hunt -- even if your warden doesn't go there to do what is asked of them, you know that they were ordered to go find Morrigan (if she did god-baby, at least)