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Syndicate revamp coming in early 2012


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#51
Dragoonlordz

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grregg wrote...

Dragoonlordz wrote...

(...)

I explained that if something you dislike happens once you might be dissapointed, if happens a second time you might be annoyed but if happens 3, 4 or 5 more times those feelings get stronger. Thats life and human nature. It is quite simple to understand. Much like if someone flicks a hard boiled sweet at you, it might not hurt but if keeps doing it for hours on end you will be far from pleased or just disappointed. The same principle applies. Something irritating happens once its annoying but you move on, happens few times it gets irratiating and start to get much more bothered by it then if happens half dozen times or more times you begin to lose patience.

X-Com happened stategy to FPS genre change, it was annoying but not huge deal as was just one of the many franchises I loved as a strategy genre franchise. Then again happens with Front Mission strategy again title to action this time, I start to get more annoyed that now two of my most favorite franchises in all the years gaming has also now switched genre for quick profit. Warhammer again was strategy titles and now action too followed by now Syndicate into FPS, I'm starting to get pissed off that all these franchise I liked "were" strategy franchises and now are FPS or action titles because developers hate variety [spice of life] or only care about profit rather than quality of choice available to the customer.

Leave the fecking much loved past strategy franchises alone if you don't wish to make strategy games.


Hmm... I am afraid that you are explaining up the wrong tree so to speak. I do understand that if a somewhat annoying event happens repeatedly, it can build up the annoyance to reach the level of anger/rage.

Unfortunately what I'm failing to understand is why the event would be annoying in the first place. As I said before, someone working somewhere on a game that I don't have to play, buy or even see, has no emotional impact on me whatsoever. So people doing so repeatedly has no impact either, along the lines that N * 0 = 0. Admittedly that gets problematic as N approaches infinity, but we're far from infinity yet.

Now, can you explain why the first event, someone making a crappy remake of a classic, is problematic? Because that's where, I think, the core difference and misunderstanding lies.


Can you tell me that since changing the genre of that original "strategy" into the FPS and action titles which switched genre to cash in on the fanbase of the original series by using brand name now used to create a high profit FPS and action titles, that they will change it back to strategy now or ever. The answer is no and I bet you can't name a single FPs or action title which changed genre to strategy.. Once they have changed a franchise from strategy into another genre it never goes back. Originally strategy franchises that will never again create another strategy title because of the simple fact once changed at no point in my memory have they ever gone back. Thats less choice and less variety, less of one type of genre in favour of another by changing genre of originally strategy franchises into those other genres all for simple profit.

If they ever lay a hand on Battle Isle series and try to change that from strategy to FPS or action I will kick up a **** storm so vast the entire planet will implode in order to escape. It will be the final nail in the coffin as it were. :bandit:

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 14 septembre 2011 - 08:59 .


#52
grregg

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Dragoonlordz wrote...

(...)

Can you tell me that since changing the genre of that original "strategy" into the FPS and action titles which switched genre to cash in on the fanbase of the original series by using brand name now used to create a high profit FPS and action titles, that they will change it back to strategy now or ever. The answer is no and I bet you can't name a single FPs or action title which changed genre to strategy.. Once they have changed a franchise from strategy into another genre it never goes back. Originally strategy franchises that will never again create another strategy title because of the simple fact once changed at no point in my memory have they ever gone back. Thats less choice and less variety, less of one type of genre in favour of another by changing genre of originally strategy franchises into those other genres all for simple profit.

If they ever lay a hand on Battle Isle series and try to change that from strategy to FPS or action I will kick up a **** storm so vast the entire planet will implode in order to escape. It will be the final nail in the coffin as it were. :bandit:


Now I get it. You're saying that a developer switching a franchise to FPS prevents you from ever seeing a strategy game made in the same franchise. At least now I understand the impact that you're objecting to. Thanks.

I have to say though that I don't agree that such a rule exists. I don't think there's some franchise police saying "Ha! You might want to develop a strategy X-Com game, but since there was an action X-Com game released in 2001, the sacred rules of evil developers prevent it! Never!"

Or to put it more seriously, I think developers are simply reluctant to develop strategy games, hence the drift away from strategy and toward genres perceived as more popular. If they ever come back to it, I'm sure we'll see strategy franchises revived (as strategies I mean). For that however someone has to either figure out how to make strategy games mainstream, or how to publish more hardcore games without going bankrupt.

Until that joyous moment, I'll keep playing the first X-Com. It's still installed on my computer, believe it or not. And there's always hope that gog.com will release the original Syndicate.

#53
Dragoonlordz

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grregg wrote...

Dragoonlordz wrote...

(...)

Can you tell me that since changing the genre of that original "strategy" into the FPS and action titles which switched genre to cash in on the fanbase of the original series by using brand name now used to create a high profit FPS and action titles, that they will change it back to strategy now or ever. The answer is no and I bet you can't name a single FPs or action title which changed genre to strategy.. Once they have changed a franchise from strategy into another genre it never goes back. Originally strategy franchises that will never again create another strategy title because of the simple fact once changed at no point in my memory have they ever gone back. Thats less choice and less variety, less of one type of genre in favour of another by changing genre of originally strategy franchises into those other genres all for simple profit.

If they ever lay a hand on Battle Isle series and try to change that from strategy to FPS or action I will kick up a **** storm so vast the entire planet will implode in order to escape. It will be the final nail in the coffin as it were. :bandit:


Now I get it. You're saying that a developer switching a franchise to FPS prevents you from ever seeing a strategy game made in the same franchise. At least now I understand the impact that you're objecting to. Thanks.

I have to say though that I don't agree that such a rule exists. I don't think there's some franchise police saying "Ha! You might want to develop a strategy X-Com game, but since there was an action X-Com game released in 2001, the sacred rules of evil developers prevent it! Never!"


The same applies to that game too so it does exist even if is not a written down binding rule, they never released another strategy title in the X-Com franchise after it switched to flight sim space shooter which is what that Enforcer was. They then changed it to FPS as in the new one, no strategy franchise once changed genre ever to my knowledge has gone back to making another strategy version. Each and every time they switch genres they are literally saying well it's switched now so don't expect the franchise to be used for what was created as in first place ever again. Because the simple fact is that is exactly what has happened with each and every one.

They should leave those strategy IPs for developers willing to make another title in series which is strategy, just make your FPS and action games under different IPs and it wouldn't bother me because I know that there is still chance someone will buy the original strategy IP and make another, when they changed genre on all of ones listed it has and will not ever go back to it's roots in strategy series unlike if they hadn't kept hold of it and changed it's genre.

Take that on board while at same time applying it to each and every strategy IP that was once loved slowley being changed into another genre mostly FPS and action, your not only limit the customer by removing variety in gaming by turning all other genres into action or FPS or even MMOs it sets the trend that will either kill off a genre because of developers not willing to make anything that has any risk or their narrow minded approach to gaming where each person is a mere $ sign and why bother taking risks on genres that to them aren't as popular aka limits variety for the customer.

In 10 or 20 years time there will be very few strategy and RPG titles left, they will all become FPS/action titles with (RPG/strategy elements) unless industry start again to take risks in what they create profit wise (no it is not a risk to make an action or FPS title as people always buy them even if they nothing but a load of tosh). Watering down each genre into one giant bland single genre or two/three genres because those genres make more profit. In this thread I am trying to speak up about it but obviously some people like yourself don't think will happen while I am seeing it happen day in day out to franchises that started out as something else and never again will be what was first created as. It is happening and it's getting worse as developers lack imagination and are unwillng to take risks, aiming only for highest profit genres available.

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 14 septembre 2011 - 10:47 .


#54
Bryy_Miller

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Eh.

I don't see the big deal. So they changed genres? Okay.

Just another EA Hate/EA Forced Them To Do Something thread.

#55
Dragoonlordz

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Bryy_Miller wrote...

Eh.

I don't see the big deal. So they changed genres? Okay.

Just another EA Hate/EA Forced Them To Do Something thread.


Stop talking before you make a bigger fool of yourself than already have.

No-one in the past two days mentioned EA until you, no-one at all mentioned being forced until you.

We were having an intelligent conversation and debate and you just lowered the tone vastly.

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 14 septembre 2011 - 11:28 .


#56
Bryy_Miller

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Dragoonlordz wrote...
you just lowered the tone vastly.


It only lowers the tone if you chose to respond. Which you did. 

Dragoonlordz wrote...
In 10 or 20 years time there will be very few strategy and RPG titles left, they will all become FPS/action titles with (RPG/strategy elements) unless industry start again to take risks in what they create profit wise (no it is not a risk to make an action or FPS title as people always buy them even if they nothing but a load of tosh). Watering down each genre into one giant bland single genre or two/three genres because those genres make more profit. In this thread I am trying to speak up about it but obviously some people like yourself don't think will happen while I am seeing it happen day in day out to franchises that started out as something else and never again will be what was first created as. It is happening and it's getting worse as developers lack imagination and are unwillng to take risks, aiming only for highest profit genres available.


This is a doomsday scenario, and not very realistic. There will always be creative surges in any industry. Dumb movies in summer and smart ones in winter.

The fact is that the games industry is at a crossroads. It is now making way more than movies ever did. It's not the early 90s anymore. They need a sustainable model which allows for creativity because it syphons a lot of production cost, which, quite frankly, is digital. 

Modifié par Bryy_Miller, 14 septembre 2011 - 11:50 .


#57
Dragoonlordz

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Bryy_Miller wrote...

This is a doomsday scenario, and not very realistic. There will always be creative surges in any industry. Dumb movies in summer and smart ones in winter.


Yes its the negative possibility but it is also more and more likley as shown earlier by trends mentioned. Unless that trend actually changes then it will stay on course. It has not changed yet, if anything it is picking up speed.

I already covered the second part of your comment in my initial response regarding their not willing to take financial risks with making genres that aren't as profitable and how this has a very nagative impact on selection and choice available to customers including lack of variety.

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 15 septembre 2011 - 12:31 .


#58
grregg

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Dragoonlordz wrote...

(...)

The same applies to that game too so it does exist even if is not a written down binding rule, they never released another strategy title in the X-Com franchise after it switched to flight sim space shooter which is what that Enforcer was. They then changed it to FPS as in the new one, no strategy franchise once changed genre ever to my knowledge has gone back to making another strategy version. Each and every time they switch genres they are literally saying well it's switched now so don't expect the franchise to be used for what was created as in first place ever again. Because the simple fact is that is exactly what has happened with each and every one.

They should leave those strategy IPs for developers willing to make another title in series which is strategy, just make your FPS and action games under different IPs and it wouldn't bother me because I know that there is still chance someone will buy the original strategy IP and make another, when they changed genre on all of ones listed it has and will not ever go back to it's roots in strategy series unlike if they hadn't kept hold of it and changed it's genre.

Take that on board while at same time applying it to each and every strategy IP that was once loved slowley being changed into another genre mostly FPS and action, your not only limit the customer by removing variety in gaming by turning all other genres into action or FPS or even MMOs it sets the trend that will either kill off a genre because of developers not willing to make anything that has any risk or their narrow minded approach to gaming where each person is a mere $ sign and why bother taking risks on genres that to them aren't as popular aka limits variety for the customer.

In 10 or 20 years time there will be very few strategy and RPG titles left, they will all become FPS/action titles with (RPG/strategy elements) unless industry start again to take risks in what they create profit wise (no it is not a risk to make an action or FPS title as people always buy them even if they nothing but a load of tosh). Watering down each genre into one giant bland single genre or two/three genres because those genres make more profit. In this thread I am trying to speak up about it but obviously some people like yourself don't think will happen while I am seeing it happen day in day out to franchises that started out as something else and never again will be what was first created as. It is happening and it's getting worse as developers lack imagination and are unwillng to take risks, aiming only for highest profit genres available.


I find your lack of faith disturbing... Actually no, I don't. But it should be obvious from my previous posts that I do not share your pessimism. The situation you described did not occur with movies, books, music, or I don't know, coffee, I see no reason that it should occur in the gaming industry. It's not like movie studios aren't any less risk averse than game publishers. Granted, there will always be more mainstream titles than hardcore ones, since publishing <insert title here> N+1 is a surer bet then a brand new title, but that's just business and don't see a problem with that.

Not to mention that I really, really don't see a point in worrying how the game industry will look in 10 or 20 years. Given how fast the technology moves and that business models seem to evolve even faster, if you can really predict the shape of the industry in 10 years, then you should stop posting on these forums and open an investment fund. Or a publishing house. You'll be filthy rich in 10 years.

#59
Dragoonlordz

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grregg wrote...

I find your lack of faith disturbing... Actually no, I don't. But it should be obvious from my previous posts that I do not share your pessimism. The situation you described did not occur with movies, books, music, or I don't know, coffee, I see no reason that it should occur in the gaming industry. It's not like movie studios aren't any less risk averse than game publishers. Granted, there will always be more mainstream titles than hardcore ones, since publishing <insert title here> N+1 is a surer bet then a brand new title, but that's just business and don't see a problem with that.

Not to mention that I really, really don't see a point in worrying how the game industry will look in 10 or 20 years. Given how fast the technology moves and that business models seem to evolve even faster, if you can really predict the shape of the industry in 10 years, then you should stop posting on these forums and open an investment fund. Or a publishing house. You'll be filthy rich in 10 years.


Thats the beauty of opinions, everyone has them and they don't have to be the same; there is no need for me to prove one way or the other to you anything. You are free to think what you will and I plan on doing the same. I happen to see a trend thats picking up pace and you don't, I noticed all these strategy titles are being turned into FPS and action titles while you see it as nothing more than coincidence it seems or are just not bothered by it. Your an optimist by looks of it and I may be a pessimistic about this subject but none of that matters. I gave you all the information you asked for earlier regarding why you entered this thread saying don't understand this and that so I explained my standpoint thats it, the end of that as in your got all your answers from those earlier posts. You are never going to convince me to change my opinion as I have no intention of trying to change yours. I simply answered your questions and the rest is speculation and mere opinion. You did not or don't see something happening, doesn't mean it hasn't or won't.

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 15 septembre 2011 - 03:29 .


#60
Zanallen

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I'm still not seeing the problem here. If you don't like what they are doing, don't buy the game. That is the only power you have in a capitalist society. That way you aren't contributing to this "evil homogenizing conspiracy" and if enough people agree with you the game will fail and maybe the designers will learn.

#61
Dragoonlordz

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Brent Knowles discussed this aspect himself and I happen to agree and mentioned such earlier. While he talks about  sequels I am using the 'tried and true' aspect applying it to genres aka the FPS and action genre developers stick to out of fear of losing profit.

Over at IGN games there is an editorial discussing whether franchises are killing videogames. It is an interesting discussion, the idea that as gaming companies become more conservative and focus on ‘tried and true’ franchises, they stifle creativity.


On the topic of lower sales it doesn't mean they will learn anything, developers can be stubborn and disregard data in favour of their own ideals, such as review scores, total sales etc. In otherwords just because they changed genre even if sales were not great they still might not go back to the proven sales of the other genre just out of pure "I'm right, your wrong mentality, maybe the poor sales was not due to genre change but one specific aspect and if tweak that everything will be all nice". What I do know is that in all examples given earlier not single one even if suffered huge bad sales slump, they never went back to strategy format. The shear pig headiness of developers rather ditched the franchise all together instead of realising the genre changed lost peoples interest, it wasn't what they wanted.

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 15 septembre 2011 - 04:39 .


#62
Ryllen Laerth Kriel

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FPS games have been done and redone to the point that they are all fairly bland to me. So taking a classic strategy game and turning into a FPS does seem fairly bleak. I really just can't imagine this will be a good thing since the fun of Syndicate was controling the whole group of agents with different tech upgrades and weapons, not taking on the role of one and having a bunch of follower NPC cyborgs with questionable AI. The original Syndicate was also something of a sandbox with large towns and a variety of ways to conclude missions. I'm wondering if this concept will be kept for a format change to a FPS...since most FPS shooters are fairly linear to keep the player shooting and make the gameplay intense. Making a FPS that isn't a trigger happy shooter might spread alot of buyer's remorse with the market oversaturated with clickfests. This just sounds like a bad idea to me.

#63
Zanallen

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Of course, Syndicate is in no way a proven sale. The last Syndicate game was 15 years ago. The video game industry has changed a lot since then and so have the majority of the fans. There is nothing that says that an isometric real time tactical shooter like the original game will sell well. Of course, it really doesn't matter. It isn't like the devs were going to make a more classical version of Syndicate but were forced to make a FPS. From the start, this new game was designed as a FPS. If they didn't make an FPS then there would be no Syndicate game at all and the franchise would remain in its dead state, just like Suikoden currently is and Secret of Mana and Chrono Trigger.

#64
Dragoonlordz

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They stay dead becuase they refuse to sell the IP to anyone else who may wish to make another strategy title from it. Instead just holding onto it incase they ever want to use it for their own goals in most cases involving genre change because they only want high chance of profit titles rather than take risks.

#65
Ulous

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Dragoonlordz wrote...

profit titles rather than take risks.


Don't get me wrong I hate the whole profit making system where everyone wants to squeeze every last inch of profit from their product, but that is the way it is at the moment, It is more a sign of the times than anything. Taking risks is something a company does during an economic boom (ideally), most of the worlds economies are on the verge of total collapse and taking risks right now could result in a company going bust.

Syndicate while being a great game is/was nothing like you Starcrafts, Warcrafts and Total wars. Recreating such a game now in it's original style would indeed be a risk and massive one, and when people only have limited money to buy a game, then buying Syndicate in it's original but spruced up form would be low down on most peoples lists imo.

#66
Cyberarmy

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Zanallen wrote...

 From the start, this new game was designed as a FPS. If they didn't make an FPS then there would be no Syndicate game at all and the franchise would remain in its dead state, just like Suikoden currently is and Secret of Mana and Chrono Trigger.


Well, we wish it would have stayed dead instead of poping out of grave after 15 years with no eyeballs and with a contagious disease(namely Fps/Tps), infecting those alive and dead.

They have System Shock and Crusader name rights which are more suited for FPS/Action type. Why ruin the strategy/action/semi sandbox/ rpg game where we contorl midless cyborgs as a evil CEO. OR they can invent a new IP, is that really hard?

Majorty of game developers become lazy and uninnovative. I dont think we will see games like old Sydnicate, old X-Com, Sacrfice, Space Hulk, Loom, Baldurs Gate, Anachronos, Little Big Adventure or Citizen Kabuto.

Edit: Add Kohan to that list :) And thank you guys for a good, intelligent debate. İt's hard to find that on the net nowadays.
 

Modifié par Cyberarmy, 15 septembre 2011 - 07:29 .


#67
Chromie

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"Paradox’s Cartel: The True Syndicate Sequel?"

Cyberarmy, you mght wanna read this.

Modifié par Ringo12, 21 septembre 2011 - 08:37 .


#68
Morroian

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Paradox is rapidly ascending up my favorite developers/publishers list.

This sounds like they're taking the original gameplay and adding elements to it rather than remaking it in another genre.

Modifié par Morroian, 21 septembre 2011 - 11:06 .


#69
KennethAFTopp

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Stanley Woo wrote...

Do you hear that, game developers and intellectual property owners? Don't ever change genres, platforms, themes, stories or characters to help sell your games! If you sell more copies or make more money than Spacewar!, you're doing something wrong!

Now, back to work on that Pong game!... no, wait, the Atari Home Pong console came out after the Magnavox Odyssey. I better think of some more original games to develop on the Magnavox Odyssey...

/sarcasm :)

That's really unfair mr. Woo, Honestly,  I don't think it's so much about that than it is about failing to understand the great pillars of what made that game great and translating it to the modern gaming world, It's something that Developers consistently fail to understand like you guys failed to understand the grand pillars of what made the Dragon Age franchise great the first time around.

Modifié par KennethAFTopp, 21 septembre 2011 - 09:37 .


#70
Ultai

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Ringo12 wrote...

"Paradox’s Cartel: The True Syndicate Sequel?"

Cyberarmy, you mght wanna read this.


I have to say, European devs/publishers are rising stars as of late, what with my love of The Witcher games, Magicka and Mount and Blade: Warband.

#71
Cyberarmy

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Thanks for the link Ringo12, its a bit late though :)
Have been following Paradox for a long time, really love their games.
At least they are being creative (Majesty, Magica, Elven Legacy, Mount&Blade series)

And they have got also a Ufo game, some rip-off from X-Com and some real bad issues, but its still better from an X-Com fps(İmho)

Since youre good to me let me introduce you another new but solid developer http://www.matrixgames.com/

they are making nice turn based games quite old school.