515 réponses à ce sujet

[naledgeborn]

111987 wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Frankly, I'd be happiest if Kai Leng couldn't be killed at all. You could beat him, and even ruin Cerberus, but I'd like there to be a few characters that Shepard can't take down to fulfill whatever ego/revenge fantasies the player has. (I'd like that to apply to TIM as well, but-)

ME2 pandered too much as it was to the player's ego, what with all the praise about how 'best' and 'great' and otherwise special Shepard was, even when Shepard had less to do about the plot. ME1's Shepard was respected, but ME2 nearly deified Shepard into a super-messiah. ME3 doesn't need Kai Leng to serve as the personal devil of evil for Shepard to prove himself awesome by overcoming.

So...Kai Leng just escapes? That's rather anti-climatic. But if that's what you like...

He has a point though. If the "perfect" woman admits to making mistakes it's not too far gone that Shep's susceptible to ****ing up once in a while. There needs to be a balance between ego stroking the player and telling a good story.

[Robhuzz]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Frankly, I'd be happiest if Kai Leng couldn't be killed at all. You could beat him, and even ruin Cerberus, but I'd like there to be a few characters that Shepard can't take down to fulfill whatever ego/revenge fantasies the player has. (I'd like that to apply to TIM as well, but-)

ME2 pandered too much as it was to the player's ego, what with all the praise about how 'best' and 'great' and otherwise special Shepard was, even when Shepard had less to do about the plot. ME1's Shepard was respected, but ME2 nearly deified Shepard into a super-messiah. ME3 doesn't need Kai Leng to serve as the personal devil of evil for Shepard to prove himself awesome by overcoming.

As long as it doesn't turn the other way around either, I'm happy. I never read the novels themselves, only summaries and I couldn't care less about Kai Leng or any other novel character. As long as Leng isn't going to be some super villain that Shepard somehow cannot take down and Leng hounds Shepard during the entire game (no fair, that's Harbinger's job) then I don't mind if we never get to kill him. Or even see him at all for that matter.

Like I said, what I don't want to see is Kai Leng dogging Shepard all the time, messing up missions and just being an utter pain in the rear while Shepard doesn't get the option to kill him. That would make for one frustrating game.

[Fiery Phoenix]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Fiery Phoenix wrote...

I sincerely doubt that, Dean. At best, you will be given an option to spare him. But for all intents and purposes, he is to be killed.

Why? Because he's opposed the glorious, unbeatable player character?

Rather, because his character appears to have been built from the ground up as a de facto villain--similar to how Saren's character came to be (from Revelation through ME1).

Of course, I don't insist or claim that this is the case, but I think it's fairly obvious if you connect the dots.

[111987]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

111987 wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Frankly, I'd be happiest if Kai Leng couldn't be killed at all. You could beat him, and even ruin Cerberus, but I'd like there to be a few characters that Shepard can't take down to fulfill whatever ego/revenge fantasies the player has. (I'd like that to apply to TIM as well, but-)

ME2 pandered too much as it was to the player's ego, what with all the praise about how 'best' and 'great' and otherwise special Shepard was, even when Shepard had less to do about the plot. ME1's Shepard was respected, but ME2 nearly deified Shepard into a super-messiah. ME3 doesn't need Kai Leng to serve as the personal devil of evil for Shepard to prove himself awesome by overcoming.

So...Kai Leng just escapes? That's rather anti-climatic. But if that's what you like...

It's only anti-climatic if your personal climax depends on you killing him.

Since Kai Leng is an antagonist, but not the villain of the game...

Okay, if you're going to use the specific literary definition of the team, than no, it's not 'anti-climatic'. The word i'm looking for is 'boring'. Kai Leng is a villain trying to kill Shepard. Since Shepard's story is concluded in ME3, the loose ends in his/her life should be tied up in my opinion.

[The Spamming Troll]

UnadoptedTrack wrote...

Gabey5 wrote...

The illusive man is a complex guy

leng may just want to retrieve shepard not kill him

Do you know how little sense that makes?!

maybe kai leng is the series actual protagonist, and kai leng is trying to recruit shepard to be one of his squadmates. hell prolly get wrex and garrus too, but maybe ME3 well be playing as kai leng.

just a theory of mine.

[Dean_the_Young]

111987 wrote...

Okay, if you're going to use the specific literary definition of the team, than no, it's not 'anti-climatic'. The word i'm looking for is 'boring'. Kai Leng is a villain trying to kill Shepard. Since Shepard's story is concluded in ME3, the loose ends in his/her life should be tied up in my opinion.

Simply because I like precision and sensible communication, Kai Leng isn't a villain yet either. He is neither the cause of the wrongs in the game, nor does beating him win the day. He's an obstacle, not the end-game.

Kai Leng and Cerberus are antagonists because they oppose Shepard. Whether they are villains will depend entirely on motivations and roles yet to be revealed.

[Someone With Mass]

Depending on his agenda, I wouldn't mind if Kai Leng escapes or kicks Shepard's ass and then escapes, but only as long as he's not always showing up just to ruin something for Shepard and be as annoying as possible.

Because then he'd be less of an actual antagonist and more...Team Rocket/Harbinger.

[marshalleck]

He needs to be established as a credible threat/antagonist to Shepard. If Shepard just tosses him around like he does everyone else then it's just one more ego-indulging power fantasy for the player, which really is quite disgusting in my opinion.

[Fiery Phoenix]

marshalleck wrote...

He needs to be established as a credible threat/antagonist to Shepard. If Shepard just tosses him around like he does everyone else then it's just one more ego-indulging power fantasy for the player, which really is quite disgusting in my opinion.

+1

[JeffZero]

marshalleck wrote...

He needs to be established as a credible threat/antagonist to Shepard. If Shepard just tosses him around like he does everyone else then it's just one more ego-indulging power fantasy for the player, which really is quite disgusting in my opinion.

+2

[Dean_the_Young]

marshalleck wrote...

He needs to be established as a credible threat/antagonist to Shepard. If Shepard just tosses him around like he does everyone else then it's just one more ego-indulging power fantasy for the player, which really is quite disgusting in my opinion.

+Lots for agreeing with my sentiment

[Someone With Mass]

marshalleck wrote...

He needs to be established as a credible threat/antagonist to Shepard. If Shepard just tosses him around like he does everyone else then it's just one more ego-indulging power fantasy for the player, which really is quite disgusting in my opinion.

Agreed.

Though, it would suck if the player is completely powerless against him. Takes away the feel of progress a bit.

[Dean_the_Young]

What constitutes powerless? Many players feel powerless if they are NOT omnipotent, simply because they're so used to it.

[Someone With Mass]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

What constitutes powerless? Many players feel powerless if they are NOT omnipotent, simply because they're so used to it.

Well, if he can do whatever he wants, like sabotaging the mission, while there's no way of stopping him or slowing him down, because he's constantly getting away or kicking Shepard's ass.

While it could lead to a better payoff at the end, it could also lead to a underwhelming feel.

I personally didn't like it that much in MGS3, where Snake constantly got his ass handed to him by The Boss until the end where she pretty much let you kill her.

[Dean_the_Young]

If he could do whatever he wants, I'd agree, but I think ME3 could well stand for Shepard to fail a story mission. And I don't mean 'lose a companion, accomplish the mission,' but actually 'no matter what you do, you fail the mission you started on.' And Kai Leng's interference is the direct cause: you might push him back and force him retreat the other two/three times, but this is one in which you don't come out on top.

To be honest, I'd make it one of the race-recruitment missions rather than a can-not-be-avoided story mission. (The team-recruitment phase, rather than the Collector missions of ME2.) Select a species to be screwed by the Reapers. No one's ever promised we all come out on top, so Shepard trying but failing to save/recruit one major species would be both surprising but plausible.

Take, say, the Turians. Shepard want to break the Reaper seige of Pavlon: this will free up the Turians to fight elsewhere, and to help liberate Earth. Cerberus/the Illusive Man, however, don't want this to occur. As long as the Reapers in question are busy trying to reap Pavlon, those Reapers aren't attacking Human colonies instead. The Turian defense is not only locking down those Reapers, but it's keeping them occupied from Human colonies in a way that will weaken the Turians significantly post-war. Win-win-win from hypothetical traitorous TIM position.

Shepard goes to Pavlon. Shepard tries to do plot mission macguffin tha will force the Reapers to retreat. Kai Leng intervenes: it may be the first time you fought him, or it may be the fourth, depending on your mission order. Kai Leng wins, Shepard is forced to flee from Pavlon as the Reapers win.

Shepard resolves to kick Kai Leng's ass the next time they meet. Does, to, even if Kai Leng gets away.

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

I'd be perfectly fine with Leng being a legitimate threat.
But I'd also like the opportunity to put down said threat.

[The Spamming Troll]

marshalleck wrote...

He needs to be established as a credible threat/antagonist to Shepard. If Shepard just tosses him around like he does everyone else then it's just one more ego-indulging power fantasy for the player, which really is quite disgusting in my opinion.

kai leng = micro
reapers = macro

both should seem comparatively threatening. id prefer it that way atleast.

Modifié par The Spamming Troll, 13 septembre 2011 - 08:55 .

[100k]

marshalleck wrote...

He needs to be established as a credible threat/antagonist to Shepard. If Shepard just tosses him around like he does everyone else then it's just one more ego-indulging power fantasy for the player, which really is quite disgusting in my opinion.

+5.

But I also want the same thing with the Reapers. If we 'beat' them by simply bashing them with fleets, I won't be impressed. Same with AI viruses, ancient "deus ex machina" weapons, or something really stupid like making the Reapers fight each other -- or dying from infection. 

It should either be all of those things combined + the control of the citadel, the Collector base, and some other stuff, or the Reapers will come off as Michael Bay constructs.

[JamieCOTC]

marshalleck wrote...

He needs to be established as a credible threat/antagonist to Shepard. If Shepard just tosses him around like he does everyone else then it's just one more ego-indulging power fantasy for the player, which really is quite disgusting in my opinion.

+ infinity ... and beyond! 

[Eternal Phoenix]

Thane Vs Kai Leng. I'd want to see that!

Adam Jensen Vs Kai Leng. I'd want to see that too!

[UnadoptedTrack]

The Spamming Troll wrote...

maybe kai leng is the series actual protagonist, and kai leng is trying to recruit shepard to be one of his squadmates. hell prolly get wrex and garrus too, but maybe ME3 well be playing as kai leng.

just a theory of mine.

Whatever you're on, keep me away from it.

[Bad King]

The Spamming Troll wrote...

UnadoptedTrack wrote...

Gabey5 wrote...

The illusive man is a complex guy

leng may just want to retrieve shepard not kill him

Do you know how little sense that makes?!

maybe kai leng is the series actual protagonist, and kai leng is trying to recruit shepard to be one of his squadmates. hell prolly get wrex and garrus too, but maybe ME3 well be playing as kai leng.

just a theory of mine.

Maybe we get to play as him at certain points in the story (like how we played as Joker briefly in ME2).

[Izhalezan]

Kei Lang should do the smart thing and attack Shepard while he, Thane and Garrus are chatting with Aria.

[BlueMagitek]

I don't understand everyone's obsession with Aria. >_>

Anyway, Kai Leng should be able to hold his own, if he isn't better; he probably has more cybernetics than Shepard does and he has had similar training. Perhaps he's even an overpowered hidden Squad member for Pro-Cerberus players. That'd be nifty. ~_^

[ubermensch007]

Nrama: We found it pretty interesting that Kai Leng, who was a standout character in the third
novel, came out of the game development; how did that play out?

Karpyshyn: You know, it was kind of a simultaneous thing. We were looking for interesting characters; concept artists love doing concept stuff, and Mass Effect has a strong visual style. Leng was a character that fit in
with both stories, he fit as someone that could start out very simple, just the muscle, the hit man, the "cleaner," but then becomes something else. He embodies Cerberus's beliefs, he's very pro-human, and he's
doing horrible things to other species.

So it fit into the game that was coming, the overall story, and it fit well with the story we wanted in the book.

Hmm... You know... Funny thing about what's said here: is that it seems to support exactly what ThePwener was going on about a page or two back; about how Kai Leng could be very differnt in Mass Effect 3 - from how we saw him in the novel...

Modifié par ubermensch007, 14 septembre 2011 - 01:34 .