515 réponses à ce sujet

[ubermensch007]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Frankly, I'd be happiest if Kai Leng couldn't be killed at all. You could beat him, and even ruin Cerberus, but I'd like there to be a few characters that Shepard can't take down to fulfill whatever ego/revenge fantasies the player has. (I'd like that to apply to TIM as well, but-)

ME2 pandered too much as it was to the player's ego, what with all the praise about how 'best' and 'great' and otherwise special Shepard was, even when Shepard had less to do about the plot. ME1's Shepard was respected, but ME2 nearly deified Shepard into a super-messiah. ME3 doesn't need Kai Leng to serve as the personal devil of evil for Shepard to prove himself awesome by overcoming.

So let me get this right:

You would be "happiest" if the Illusive Man and Kai Leng have "PLOT ARMOR" in Mass Effect 3!?

That would totally suck...

And prevent either one of them from being considered to be a credible foe.People already hate Cerberus for how they behave as though they can just "act with impunity" and you want to go and give them that very thing?!

Modifié par ubermensch007, 14 septembre 2011 - 01:35 .

[BlueMagitek]

Hey now, we let Liara have plot armor (and plot friendship) even though one of the funniest (and more terrifying, if you think about it) scenes occur if you recruit her last and barely talk to her at all. Would it be so bad to give it to Martin Sheen?

[TheOptimist]

I honestly have 2 ways I'd be happy to see this go down.

1.  Shepard pulls an Indiana Jones/Malcom Reynolds and headshots Kai Leng just as he's warming into an Epic Villain/Not So Different speech. I don't actually expect this to happen, as between the book and some of the developer hints we've gotten it seems like they've put a lot of work into making this guy a decent antagonist, but it would be so wonderfully trope-averting to have Kai Leng be this built up midboss type only to get steamrolled.

2.  I would honestly love to see a CQC quicktime battle between Kai Leng and a squad of Cerberus mooks vs. Shepard and two squaddies.  Something like the Wash/Meta vs. Tex battle in RVB, with Kai Leng having the upper hand against Shepard or either of the squadmates but being beaten back when any two of them team up and especially when he has to take on all three at once.   The mooks would be there to pull people away from the fight with Kai Leng and to get trashed, obviously.

This second option has the advantage of showing Kai Leng to be a threat while still showing what in my opinion is Shepard's greatest advantage over Kai Leng, the ability to be part of a cohesive team rather than a one person show.

On the other hand, something I definitely don't need to see is Kai Leng showing up over and over again.  Nothing makes me dislike a game faster than a villain I should be able to kill being handed a nigh-infinite amount of plot armor to make them seem 'tougher'.  Getting away once I can deal with, but multiple times? Ugh.  No thanks.

Modifié par TheOptimist, 14 septembre 2011 - 03:06 .

[ubermensch007]

@BlueMagitek: You know I heard about how Liara is really loopy and out of it.If you wait to long to rescue her.I've never done that myself.I like to have all my squad mates, so I can decide from the entire roster, who I will take with me on the major missions.

Would it be so bad to give Martin Sheen plot armor?

Yes... Because after seeing what UnadoptedTrack said to ThePwener:

...Hold on, it's going to take me a minute to adjust to the bull**** you just threw at me.

That is such a GREAT LINE: That Commander Shepard absolutely has to be able to say this to the Illusive Man.When Jack Harper tries to explain to Shepard, why Cerberus soldiers are trying to kill him and his team in ME 3.Shepard needs to say this to TIM, right before shooting him in the head.

That would be awesome!

Modifié par ubermensch007, 14 septembre 2011 - 03:13 .

[Zu Long]

TheOptimist wrote...

I honestly have 2 ways I'd be happy to see this go down.

1.  Shepard pulls an Indiana Jones/Malcom Reynolds and headshots Kai Leng just as he's warming into an Epic Villain/Not So Different speech. I don't actually expect this to happen, as between the book and some of the developer hints we've gotten it seems like they've put a lot of work into making this guy a decent antagonist, but it would be so wonderfully trope-averting to have Kai Leng be this built up midboss type only to get steamrolled.

2.  I would honestly love to see a CQC quicktime battle between Kai Leng and a squad of Cerberus mooks vs. Shepard and two squaddies.  Something like the Wash/Meta vs. Tex battle in RVB, with Kai Leng having the upper hand against Shepard or either of the squadmates but being beaten back when any two of them team up and especially when he has to take on all three at once.   The mooks would be there to pull people away from the fight with Kai Leng and to get trashed, obviously.

This second option has the advantage of showing Kai Leng to be a threat while still showing what in my opinion is Shepard's greatest advantage over Kai Leng, the ability to be part of a cohesive team rather than a one person show.

On the other hand, something I definitely don't need to see is Kai Leng showing up over and over again.  Nothing makes me dislike a game faster than a villain I should be able to kill being handed a nigh-infinite amount of plot armor to make them seem 'tougher'.  Getting away once I can deal with, but multiple times? Ugh.  No thanks.

I have to admit that second option would be pretty sweet.

I dunno though, while I'm sure Kai Leng is all that and a bag of chips in the books, I have trouble being intimidated by this guy. Shepard's taken down two Spectres, a Yahg, an entire base full of alliance troops single-handedly, a thresher maw, a reaperized Spectre... you get my drift. And I'm supposed to be impressed because this guy knifed a krogan one time?

Bioware could have him dog your heels, and turn him into an opponent I can respect and relish defeating, but they'd have to do it right. You can't just have him walk in and go toe to toe with the champ (Shepard), and expect me to buy it.

[BlueMagitek]

ubermensch007 wrote...

@BlueMagitek: You know I heard about how Liara is really loopy and out of it.If you wait to long to rescue her.I've never done that myself.I like to have all my squad mates, so I can decide from the entire roster, who I will take with me on the major missions.

Would it be so bad to give Martin Sheen plot armor?

Yes... Because after seeing what UnadoptedTrack said to ThePwener:

...Hold on, it's going to take me a minute to adjust to the bull**** you just threw at me.

That is such a GREAT LINE: That Commander Shepard absolutely has to be able to say this to the Illusive Man.When Jack Harper tries to explain to Shepard, why Cerberus soldiers are trying to kill him and his team in ME 3.Shepard needs to say this to TIM, right before shooting him in the head.

That would be awesome!

It's another way to play the game and it's a nice nod from Bioware that the order you do things actually *does* have some effect.  But yeah, she's totally going crazy from lack of food/sleep.

Killing off someone on your side, even if you aren't on the best of terms, isn't the best way to go about things if it could be avoided. >_>

[UnadoptedTrack]

ubermensch007 wrote...

@BlueMagitek: You know I heard about how Liara is really loopy and out of it.If you wait to long to rescue her.I've never done that myself.I like to have all my squad mates, so I can decide from the entire roster, who I will take with me on the major missions.

Would it be so bad to give Martin Sheen plot armor?

Yes... Because after seeing what UnadoptedTrack said to ThePwener:

...Hold on, it's going to take me a minute to adjust to the bull**** you just threw at me.

That is such a GREAT LINE: That Commander Shepard absolutely has to be able to say this to the Illusive Man.When Jack Harper tries to explain to Shepard, why Cerberus soldiers are trying to kill him and his team in ME 3.Shepard needs to say this to TIM, right before shooting him in the head.

That would be awesome!

Honestly, I just said that on an impulse.

[TheOptimist]

Zu Long wrote...
I have to admit that second option would be pretty sweet.

I dunno though, while I'm sure Kai Leng is all that and a bag of chips in the books, I have trouble being intimidated by this guy. Shepard's taken down two Spectres, a Yahg, an entire base full of alliance troops single-handedly, a thresher maw, a reaperized Spectre... you get my drift. And I'm supposed to be impressed because this guy knifed a krogan one time?

Bioware could have him dog your heels, and turn him into an opponent I can respect and relish defeating, but they'd have to do it right. You can't just have him walk in and go toe to toe with the champ (Shepard), and expect me to buy it.

Example?

[111987]

Zu Long wrote...

I have to admit that second option would be pretty sweet.

I dunno though, while I'm sure Kai Leng is all that and a bag of chips in the books, I have trouble being intimidated by this guy. Shepard's taken down two Spectres, a Yahg, an entire base full of alliance troops single-handedly, a thresher maw, a reaperized Spectre... you get my drift. And I'm supposed to be impressed because this guy knifed a krogan one time?

Bioware could have him dog your heels, and turn him into an opponent I can respect and relish defeating, but they'd have to do it right. You can't just have him walk in and go toe to toe with the champ (Shepard), and expect me to buy it.

The thing is, Kai Leng is an opponent unlike any Shepard has faced. Saren was flying around on a hoverboard shooting his assault rifle at you. A Yahg is an overpower behemoth; pure power and force. Vasir was charging around the battle field with her assault rifle and unleashing a powerful biotic display.

But Kai Leng is a different animal all together. He is an assassin, which, in his own way, makes him just as dangerous if not more so than the rest of the people Shepard has faced. I think, like you said, if it is done right Kai Leng could really instill a sense of fear in the mind of the player.

It's like, the difference between Grunt and Thane. While you wouldn't want to fight Grunt, I think it's more terrifying to think a silent assassin is slowly dogging your every move, and when you least expect it...*neck snap*

[111987]

EternalAmbiguity wrote...

111987 wrote...

Zu Long wrote...

I have to admit that second option would be pretty sweet.

I dunno though, while I'm sure Kai Leng is all that and a bag of chips in the books, I have trouble being intimidated by this guy. Shepard's taken down two Spectres, a Yahg, an entire base full of alliance troops single-handedly, a thresher maw, a reaperized Spectre... you get my drift. And I'm supposed to be impressed because this guy knifed a krogan one time?

Bioware could have him dog your heels, and turn him into an opponent I can respect and relish defeating, but they'd have to do it right. You can't just have him walk in and go toe to toe with the champ (Shepard), and expect me to buy it.

The thing is, Kai Leng is an opponent unlike any Shepard has faced. Saren was flying around on a hoverboard shooting his assault rifle at you. A Yahg is an overpower behemoth; pure power and force. Vasir was charging around the battle field with her assault rifle and unleashing a powerful biotic display.

But Kai Leng is a different animal all together. He is an assassin, which, in his own way, makes him just as dangerous if not more so than the rest of the people Shepard has faced. I think, like you said, if it is done right Kai Leng could really instill a sense of fear in the mind of the player.

It's like, the difference between Grunt and Thane. While you wouldn't want to fight Grunt, I think it's more terrifying to think a silent assassin is slowly dogging your every move, and when you least expect it...*neck snap*

I agree with you, but there's a bg difference between "dangerous" and "unable to kill."

Oh I agree, Kai Leng should be killed.

[Zu Long]

TheOptimist wrote...

Zu Long wrote...
I have to admit that second option would be pretty sweet.

I dunno though, while I'm sure Kai Leng is all that and a bag of chips in the books, I have trouble being intimidated by this guy. Shepard's taken down two Spectres, a Yahg, an entire base full of alliance troops single-handedly, a thresher maw, a reaperized Spectre... you get my drift. And I'm supposed to be impressed because this guy knifed a krogan one time?

Bioware could have him dog your heels, and turn him into an opponent I can respect and relish defeating, but they'd have to do it right. You can't just have him walk in and go toe to toe with the champ (Shepard), and expect me to buy it.

Example?

Well... Like Wiegraff in Final Fantasy Tactics. You fight him several times, and it is established in the first two fights that while your party can help you take him on, one-on-one he would probably kick Ramza's butt. Then, after enough fights that it is believable Ramza could have improved, you fight him one on one as part of arguably the toughest fight of the whole game.

While Wiegraff retreats each time, his clearly superior ability set makes him a menacing opponent.

While the situation isn't entirely comparable, Kai Leng could similarly show enough competence and physical ability in the first few encounters with him that he could come off as actually threatening when you go toe-to-toe. Shepard really shouldn't just be jobbed by him though, it's just not believable that Shepard is going to be curbstomped by anyone or anything at this point in the series.

As an illustration- We know Thane is suffering from his disease, but was still pretty awesome in ME2. As part of the mission Shepard is on, Thane is doing something Cerberus doesn't like, and Kai Leng goes after him. Thane and Kai duke it out hand to hand for a while, ninja-style, but then Thane starts to run out of breath, because, you know, his lungs are filled with water. Kai takes Thane down, prepares for the kill stroke, but then Shepard runs in. Leng manages to disarm Shepard's initial gun, but gets kicked in the face for his trouble. Leng escapes out the back just before Shepard finishes drawing a bead on him with her second gun. *end scene*

Here we establish Kai as a credible threat- he took Thane one on one and disarmed Shepard, -while still preserving some badass points for Shepard and Thane too. Doing it this way elevates Kai to the rank of ass-kicker, as opposed to one of the heroes being demoted to the rank of jobber if he were to, say, curbstomp Garrus or Grunt.

Another example might be Rand from Live Free or Die Hard. He goes up against John McClain and still comes off as pretty believably awesome and menacing in their fights.

Modifié par Zu Long, 14 septembre 2011 - 04:49 .

[ubermensch007]

Zu Long wrote... Bioware could have him dog your heels, and turn him into an opponent I can respect and relish defeating, but they'd have to do it right. You can't just have him walk in and go toe to toe with the champ (Shepard), and expect me to buy it.

 Zu long, I so know what you mean here... Look, my Commander Shepard is the King of Pinnacle Station.I just recently got this acheivement and I am very proud of it.That sh!t was hard, ese...

I personally value this acheivement by Commander Shepard to be greater even than him becoming a Spectre.People can say that Shep being a Spectre was more to do with politcs than his skill sets to the cows come home.But Shepard becoming the Top Warrior on Pinnacle Station is indisputable And incontravertible.Aria says to Shep. "No offense Shepard.But Omega doesn't care about you.' Spectres aren't feared or respected that much in the Terminus Systems.But I'm pretty sure that everyone would respect the skills of someone who managed to come out on top at Pinnacle Station.I have no doubt that even if Shep's Spectre status is revoked.He will be getting offers from every Merc Band and Boss around.Trying to employ him in their service.Aria would more than likely offer him a spot as her Right Hand man.

Who the hell in their right mind would mess with the King of Pinnacle Station?  Screw Captain of the Normandy and all that stuff.This is my favorite accolade that Shepard can have in Mass Effect...  I guess its because its the only one that is not determined by the "plot police" you have to earn it.

Okay, i'm probably like totally off topic right now... Let me get back on track:

One of the things that I really did not like about Final Fantasy Advent Children is how it introduced these new antagonist.Who were strong and powerful and had really cool character designs.



But what irked me about them, was how they acted like they were the sh!t, and they hadn't even done anything yet They were the worst kind of "upstarts" . <_< And if BioWare tries to model Kai Leng after them.I will not be amused... 

Kai Leng is an Ex- N7 Marine. So...

Kai Leng does the Illusive Man's dirty work. Meh...
Kai Leng is going to have a show down with Commander Shepard in 2186. Good luck with that...

Modifié par ubermensch007, 14 septembre 2011 - 04:55 .

[ubermensch007]

Yeah EA, but that's my problem with these Bastards.They were to damn good! They came out of nowhere and was just kicking everybody's ass.The big guy on the far right was like indifferent to like every attack that Tifa threw at him.It was just bullsh!t to me.Squaresoft tried to hard to make them into a credible threat for Cloud and his friends.That just did not jibe with me.

At this point I can't even stand Sepiroth... Don't get me wrong it was a cool fight betwixt him and Cloud.But if I was Cloud, I would be like: How many times do I have to kick this dudes ass?

1. I threw him into a vat of (whatever the planetary core stuff was called)

2. Me and my team defeated him when he was in his God-state.

3. I defeated him afterwords by myself, in a sword duel.

4. Now i haveto fight his sorry ass again.At this point Sepiroth is no different than the Coyote trying to catch the Road Runner.He's never going to get him.And Sepiroth is never going to win...

Modifié par ubermensch007, 14 septembre 2011 - 05:10 .

[TheShogunOfHarlem]

Saphra Deden wrote...

TheShogunOfHarlem wrote...

Read the Star Wars EU and you will get my drift.

I've read too much of it as it is and it sucks, Fett included.

I won't disagree with you. The majority of EU writers wrote stories that were either too safe or just completely pointless. Dealing with the Imperial Remenants got really tired and don't even get me started on the NJO era (thankfully I never got that far)

I really wish a writer would have touched on the concept of the Grey side of the Force. Plus I wish that they made Leia a full flegged Jedi who rivaled Luke in Force potential. (which was kind of implied in ROTJ) 

Boba Fett in EU became a fanservice nightmare. I was neutral about him in the movies but when I read some EU stories I facepalmed. Fan stories and ideas about his role in the Prequels were even worse. I just don't want Kei Leng to be the Boba Fett (EU) of Mass Effect.

[Zu Long]

EternalAmbiguity wrote...

*snip*

I'm sorry, all I saw was Kadaj. I love Kadaj. Poor kid just wanted his mother to love him, when she only loved his big brother, Sephie, so sad...

And if you think about it, they were pretty good. The two others (can't remember their names) wipe the floor with Runo and Red...and it takes a bomb to beat them. And Cloud couldn't beat them together, had to retreat every time.

Sorry, my love for AC derailed me.

I'm a huge AC fan too, and in general I liked how they handled the power levels for the various characters. The three of them can take on Cloud the first few times they face him because he's weakened by the Geostigma.

The one fight I wasn't a fan of was the Tifa vs Loz fight. Tifa kicks the crap out of him and then he just no-sells it and one-hit KOs her. It seriously challenged my suspension of disbelief. To bring it back to my original point, it would be like Garrus or Grunt getting curbstomped by Kai Leng- it's not threatening, it's annoying.

Otherwise, love the movie, loved the game.

Modifié par Zu Long, 14 septembre 2011 - 05:19 .

[ObserverStatus]

ubermensch007 wrote...
One of the things that I really did not like about Final Fantasy Advent Children is how it introduced these new antagonist.Who were strong and powerful and had really cool character designs.

wait, so that's not Riku from Kingdom Hearts?

Modifié par bobobo878, 14 septembre 2011 - 05:37 .

[UnadoptedTrack]

bobobo878 wrote...

ubermensch007 wrote...
One of the things that I really did not like about Final Fantasy Advent Children is how it introduced these new antagonist.Who were strong and powerful and had really cool character designs.

wait, so that's not Riku from Kingdom Hearts?

Riku? What the, guh, ju... *unintelligible mumuring*

[ubermensch007]

What... Have I... Unleashed on this thread?

The Krakken... Final Fantasy Addition

[UnadoptedTrack]

ubermensch007 wrote...

What... Have I... Unleashed on this thread?

The Krakken... Final Fantasy Addition

No, something much worse then The Krakken. Bahammut has been unleashed!