18 réponses à ce sujet

[kristinie13]

I literally just opened up a recently bought copy of DA2 (a few months late to the party, I know haha) and I'm eager to play it once I finish my perfect playthorugh or Origins>Awakening>DLCs. However, after playing through the demo quite a bit of times and looking around the Dragon Age Wiki, I noticed that some of the equipment has properties that were unheared of in Origins.

I understand the concept behind force, the faster combat in DA2, the
insanely high health and endless waves of enemies, etc. but there are a few things I couldn't find anywhere, like:

A ring giving over 100 attack, or a shield having 271 armor? Does this mean than the enemies' stats are jacked up too (compared to Origins)? And why are the elemental resistances given as numbers, not percentages (+278 fire resistance, for example)? And since weapons have an damage per second property listed, why do they also have a different number for the amount of damage (like the Longbar Blade says 8 DPS, but it also lists 5 physical damage)?

Sorry if there is another thread explaining all this, I couldn't find it anywhere lol:)

[Sabotin]

Stats work a bit differently than in DA:O.

Those numbers are just bases, from which the % are derived. They're majorly affected by level (the % decrease as you level up) and somewhat by the rank of the enemies (for example vs elites you have 20% less armor). The usefulness of bonuses like +271 armor therefore depends at what level you are; at lower levels the +271 might be a 20% increase in armor, while at higher perhaps not even 1%.

Each such stat also has a "sweet spot" up to which the increases will be noticeable, but after it they become smaller and smaller. (From the previous example: at the same level the first +200 attack might net a 10% increase, but adding another 100 will increase it by just 6% more).

So gear doesn't so much increase your stats as it keeps them at the same level. There are some exceptions of course.

Perhaps it sounds a bit complicated on paper, but it really isn't, you'll understand it very fast.

Oh and dps is different because of the different attack speed of weapons (1h sword hits faster than 2h sword for example)

Modifié par Sabotin, 13 septembre 2011 - 06:48 .

[Sylvius the Mad]

Of course, since the mechanics are pretty much entirely undocumented, understanding them fully is basically impossible without opening up the game and poking around in the code.

[Wulfram]

The base numbers are pretty much incomprehensible, so you equip the item and then see what it does to the percentages. It's a hassle, but bearable.

[thendcomes]

Attack rating, armor rating, and defense rating are logarithmic functions and are dependent on player level. In other words, given a single player level, the % increase these stats bestow will increase quickly at first per point, then slow down dramatically as you reach the cap. The amount of points needed also increases as your player level increases.

The easiest way to observe this is if you respec and place points in cunning, your defense will increase dramatically at first (eg. 5% defense rating for the first point of cunning) and then slow down the closer you get to the cap of 80% (eg. 5 points for 1% of defense).

I think elemental resistance is different in that the increase is linear per point of resistance, but the amount needed to reach a certain % increases based on your level.

The game compensates by exponentially increasing attack, armor, defense and elemental resistance on gear based on item level.

As for the damage versus the DPS, that is simply the weapon base damage divided by the weapon speed. It's not accurate since it does not factor anything else besides weapon base damage. Modifiers on the weapon itself nor your other gear are not included.

Modifié par thendcomes, 13 septembre 2011 - 05:54 .

[Sylvius the Mad]

Wulfram wrote...

The base numbers are pretty much incomprehensible, so you equip the item and then see what it does to the percentages.

Which, of course, doesn't work at all when you're shopping.

Also, those +9% physical damage bonuses aren't reflected in the conclulated figures, so you have to guess how the 9% is applied in order to compare weapons.

Modifié par Sylvius the Mad, 13 septembre 2011 - 06:21 .

[Sylvius the Mad]

thendcomes wrote...

Attack rating, armor rating, and defense rating are logarithmic functions and are dependent on player level. In other words, given a single player level, the % increase these stats bestow will increase quickly at first per point, then slow down dramatically as you reach the cap. The amount of points needed also increases as your player level increases.

The easiest way to observe this is if you respec and place points in cunning, your defense will increase dramatically at first (eg. 5% defense rating for the first point of cunning) and then slow down the closer you get to the cap of 80% (eg. 5 points for 1% of defense).

I think elemental resistance is different in that the increase is linear per point of resistance, but the amount needed to reach a certain % increases based on your level.

The game compensates by exponentially increasing attack, armor, defense and elemental resistance on gear based on item level.

I want to hear some justification for that.  How is it Hawke gets less good at things by gaining a level?

[maxernst]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

The base numbers are pretty much incomprehensible, so you equip the item and then see what it does to the percentages.

Which, of course, doesn't work at all when you're shopping.

Also, those +9% physical damage bonuses aren't reflected in the conclulated figures, so you have to guess how the 9% is applied in order to compare weapons.

Shopping seemed almost completely pointless to me in DA2.  Ironically, the D&D mechanics that drove earlier Bioware games were far simpler and more transparent.

[thendcomes]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...
I want to hear some justification for that.  How is it Hawke gets less good at things by gaining a level?

Like you want screenshots? How about just go to the character screen and observe that all your %s decrease slightly when you level up? If you want to see the pronounced effect, you can for example look at how much 500 defense rating does for your % chance to evade melee at level 1, then runscript addxp and see how much it does for you at level 20 or 50. 

This system is employed by WoW as well. 

Sylvius the Mad wrote...
Of course, since the mechanics are pretty much entirely undocumented, understanding them fully is basically impossible without opening up the game and poking around in the code.

They might not be understood fully, but you could easily derive formulas from observing the effects of adding 1 point of (insert attribute here) on your derived attributes (defense%, armor%, attack%, etc.)

Modifié par thendcomes, 13 septembre 2011 - 09:20 .

[hoorayforicecream]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

I want to hear some justification for that.  How is it Hawke gets less good at things by gaining a level?

Enemies Hawke encounters are of an equivalent level, garnering more health, damage, offensive and defensive stats. Hawke fights enemies that are higher level than before; old equipment is not as good at beating enemies that are higher level.

[Sylvius the Mad]

maxernst wrote...

Shopping seemed almost completely pointless to me in DA2.  Ironically, the D&D mechanics that drove earlier Bioware games were far simpler and more transparent.

That their mechanics were documented might have had something to do with that.

thendcomes wrote...

Like you want screenshots? How about just go to the character screen and observe that all your %s decrease slightly when you level up? If you want to see the pronounced effect, you can for example look at how much
500 defense rating does for your % chance to evade melee at level 1, then runscript addxp and see how much it does for you at level 20 or 50. 

This system is employed by WoW as well.

I know what happens.  I want to know why, within the game world, Hawke's skills decline as he levels up.

hoorayforicecream wrote...

Enemies Hawke encounters are of an equivalent level, garnering more health, damage, offensive and defensive stats. Hawke fights enemies that are higher level than before; old equipment is not as good at beating enemies that are higher level.

So everything scales?

I like that even less than when I had no idea what was going on.

Modifié par Sylvius the Mad, 14 septembre 2011 - 05:26 .

[Sabotin]

Well, you could look at it that way. But instead of upping the stats of enemies, your stats decrease. The effect is basically the same as if enemies scaled.
The transparency is king of arguable. You have a much better insight at how strong your are compared to an enemy due to the stats basically being comparisons, but the scaling itself is obfuscated and enemies with different-that-normal stats don't match up with yours.

Btw, in DA:O also everything scaled, but on the enemy side.

Modifié par Sabotin, 14 septembre 2011 - 05:59 .

[Relix28]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

thendcomes wrote...

Like you want screenshots? How about just go to the character screen and observe that all your %s decrease slightly when you level up? If you want to see the pronounced effect, you can for example look at how much
500 defense rating does for your % chance to evade melee at level 1, then runscript addxp and see how much it does for you at level 20 or 50. 

This system is employed by WoW as well.

I know what happens.  I want to know why, within the game world, Hawke's skills decline as he levels up.

I'm not really sure what you mean with that. It is so because the developers programed it that way, and it was done for balancing purposes. Obvious, that one. And it's not like Hawke is getting nerfed as he lvl-ups, not exactly. Yes, stats decrease slightly every time you lvl.up, but you also gain new attribute and skill points every time, wich in turn makes Hawke more powerful. Overall, Hawke is getting more powerful with every new lvl, because of the newly accuired skills. Stat decrease is minimal and it doesn't really effect gameplay all that much.

[thendcomes]

I think he wants an RP justification lol. Someone else can handle that I guess.

[hoorayforicecream]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

So everything scales?

I like that even less than when I had no idea what was going on.

It always did. Seems fine to me.

[Relix28]

thendcomes wrote...

I think he wants an RP justification lol. Someone else can handle that I guess.

I was afraid of that. And I don't think there is or ever will be a RP justification for minor hidden stats. He might as well justify it in his head or be disappointed.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Relix28 wrote...

thendcomes wrote...

I think he wants an RP justification lol. Someone else can handle that I guess.

I was afraid of that. And I don't think there is or ever will be a RP justification for minor hidden stats. He might as well justify it in his head or be disappointed.

There should be an RP justification for the lore, and the stats should be nothing more than a mechanical representation of that lore.

[Relix28]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Relix28 wrote...

thendcomes wrote...

I think he wants an RP justification lol. Someone else can handle that I guess.

I was afraid of that. And I don't think there is or ever will be a RP justification for minor hidden stats. He might as well justify it in his head or be disappointed.

There should be an RP justification for the lore, and the stats should be nothing more than a mechanical representation of that lore.

No offense, but I'm so not getting involved into this debate.