84 réponses à ce sujet

[Goph]

I'd like some advice on running a pure good-aligned party in SoA vanilla.  The only NPC I'm absolutely married to is Valygar, so that leaves me with three basic questions.

1) Which of the five other good-aligned NPCs should I not accept:

Minsc
Aerie
Nalia
Mazzy
Keldorn

2)  What's my best PC choice?

I typically go for tank types, but with the fighter-heavy selction of good-aligned characters in BGII, that maybe isn't the best choice . . .

3) Who should I drop once Imoen becomes available?

This is maybe a bad question, since I haven't actually rescued Imoen in my first runthrough yet.  But I'm assuming she eventually becomes a playable character again and I'll have to lose someone to pick her up.

Thanks in advance for any advice . . .

[Ishad Nha]

Level 1 NPCs mod will enable you to choose the class and kit of any NPC. I found Aerie made an excellent single class Sorceror, occasional problems with dialog were nothing. (Her dialog reflects her being a Cleric/Mage).

[Goph]

Yes, that would solve many problems, but I'll be playing through without mods . . .

[Ishad Nha]

Level 1 NPCs is one mod that I recommend for a nearly-vanilla game. It means party composition is not dictated to you by what classes are available.
Party composition depends upon the classes you want, so if you already have enough mages drop one of them.
Undead Hunter is a handy Paladin kit, especially the immunity to energy drain and hold.

[Goph]

Yes, I understand what the mod does, and I agree that it is nifty and useful, but it's not really helpful for my question. I'm sure I'll use it on subsequent playthroughs, but for this playthrough I'll be doing this . . .

[Humanoid_Taifun]

I think you don't need Minsc when you've already got a ranger with you.

The obvious choice for the drop (for Imoen) would be Nalia. She practically fulfills the same role as Imoen.
In that set-up, you'd have 2 warriors, the thieving abilities covered (though not really explored) and 1½ mages but only ½ cleric. Thus, with your suggestion that you want a tank, the Ranger/Cleric is the most obvious choice.

[Goph]

That's interesting. I didn't use Keldorn this time (kept Yoshimo and Jah until I got Valymar and Mazzy, respectively) but I would've thought Minsc was a sure keeper -- he's probably my best fighter in my current party. Keldorn's a good replacement?

Dropping Nalia makes sense (dropped Mazzy just now), but I'm still leaning towards one of the pure fighter kits for my pc -- I've found Aerie to be an adequate cleric; my only big concern has been keeping her alive to revive everyone else -- am I missing something . . ?

[Humanoid_Taifun]

Strength-wise, Minsc and Keldorn become equal once you start using strength enhancing items. Item-wise, Keldorn gets Carsomyr. Spell-wise, Minsc gets Armor of Faith (which is pretty useful), but Keldorn has Dispel Magic and True Sight.
Minsc's not necessarily inferior, but IMO you only need one ranger really (and often in my games, Minsc and Valygar have to compete for the high-end equipment.

Keeping Aerie alive shouldn't be an issue once you understand the basic magic spells:
Stoneskin, Mirror Image, Protection from Magical Weapons etc
But as I see it, being able to cast Chaotic Commands, Death Ward etc properly on everybody before a difficult battle is really nice. The RC is also one of the most powerful warriors. Give him the Flail of Ages and (if you have it) the Defender of Easthaven, and he'll make any pure fighter (kit) look weak (except possibly a really power-gamed Kensai).

[morbidest2]

If your PC will be a fighter and you insist on having Valygar, then I would use Keldorn (it's nice to have a +5 2HS), Imoen AND Nalia (I like 2 strong mages in a vanilla game) and Anomen (he starts neutral, but becomes good, unless you butcher his sidequest) as a strong cleric. This leaves you without druidic magic, but unless you're willing to use a neutral Jaheira instead of a good Valygar, I guess you're stuck. Substituting Aerie for Nalia gives you more clerical help, but magic becomes more important as the game goes on and Aerie really doesn't get up to speed as a mage until well into ToB, and is tough to keep alive in vanilla SoA. It's cheaper to buy extra healing potions than extra high level magic scrolls.
Another possibility would be if you make your PC a paladin instead of a fighter; then you could personally use that +5 paladin weapon and have room in your party for Aerie. It would also be wise to have either Valygar or Anomen gain skill points in war hammers, so that after having done all the sidequests in the Underdark, you could assemble Crom Fayr, another +5 weapon with a great Strength bonus. If you're junking Nature's Magic and Weapons by going a pure goody-two-shoes route, then you need some +5 armament.  

[Carinna]

To answer your question of who to replace with Imoen, Nalia seems tailor-made for that purpose, being a mage/thief dual herself. She's short on thief levels in comparison, but should do okay if you keep potions handy for anything she can't handle until you get Imoen back.

Otherwise:
Minsc pros:
Very high strength and constitution fighter with all the bonuses that implies
Gets the ranger spells
Minsc cons:
Berserker ability is uncontrollable (he goes yellow when berserk)
Low wisdom/intelligence means he is susceptible to wisdom check attacks (charm, etc), and cannot cast from scrolls
No personal quest

Aerie pros:
Unparalleled ability to cast both arcane and divine spells. This is especially prominent later when she gets spell triggers, as no other cleric can cast from spell triggers.
Opportunity for PC love interest
Aerie cons:
Very low constitution and strength usually means instant death unless continuously buffed; many suggested buffs are not available immediately.
Multiclass, so levels slowly compared to other characters
No real personal quest

Nalia pros:
Dualed early so can become a powerful arch-mage (second best mage in the game; the best is evil, so not good for your purposes).
Can use thief weapons and equipment because of the dual-classing
Some minor thief ability
Has a personal quest
Nalia cons:
Dualed early so thief ability is very minimal

Mazzy pros:
Surprisingly excellent fighter
Benefits from size modifiers
Has a personal quest AND a personal encounter
Mazzy cons:
Single-class fighter; cannot be dualed or multiclassed

Keldorn pros:
Has access to Inquisitor abilities True Sight and Dispel Magic
Can use Paladin-only equipment
Has a personal quest
Keldorn cons:
Not as strong a fighter as Minsc, but not weak either

[AnonymousHero]

Carinna wrote...
Low wisdom/intelligence means he is susceptible to wisdom check attacks (charm, etc), and cannot cast from scrolls

Just a minor nit: WIS has no effect on saving throws and no (EDIT:offensive) spells check WIS. (Unless you're playing modded, of course.)

Modifié par AnonymousHero, 13 septembre 2011 - 04:58 .

[Bobfly]

I'd definitely drop Minsc. The only thing Minsc really has going for him, other than his ~wacky~ dialogue, is his strength. So with a strength-enhancing item (of which there are plenty), Valygar is better in basically every single way. Apart from AC, but there's enough extremely good leather armour that wouldn't go on anyone else that this difference isn't as great as you might think. Plus this allows him to scout - and you really don't need more tanks than Mazzy, summons and possibly Keldorn.

Aerie goes from decently powerful in the beginning to hilariously overpowered toward the end (of ToB), but she's also insufferable to the point where I'd almost consider making the PC a mage/cleric just to avoid having to take her along. Also, gnomish cleric/illusionists are amazing.

Nalia... Well, she's basically a single classed mage. She could solo the game without breaking too much of a sweat. But she's also Imoen with a slightly better weight capacity (a factor which magically ceases to matter the moment you pick up Imoen) and thief skills that are insufficient for her to serve as your party thief. She would be my pick for removing for Imoen... Unless you find her personality endearing or something. I certainly don't.

Mazzy is actually really great for a single classed fighter, on top of having some amusing (to me, ymmv of course) dialogue with Valygar. And with Korgan, but you're not bringing him along. Being a halfling gives her a 4 point bonus to saves against death, wands and spells, plus access to the sword of Avoreen, which is really, really good. Slows on hit, baby. On top of this, she has some nice special abilities - remove fear, a small heal and haste(!). Just a pity she wasted weapon proficiency pips getting to grand mastery, and in shortbows no less. Again, she'll need +STR items to be entirely effective... But there's a decent amount of +str potions in the game, I guess. (Oh, and Carinna - you seem to have your dee and dee editions messed up - there's no such thing as a size bonus in this game)

Keldorn is an inquisitor - that alone should be enough to bring him along. Those dispels and true sights will just about trivialize mage encounters (which tend to be the most dangerous), especially with Carsomyr and the staff of the Magi (both dispel magic on hit) thrown into the mix. Give him the gauntlets of dexterity and maybe a STR enhancer and you're good to go.

I think the best match for this party would be a Cleric/Thief because you don't really have a thief before Imoen, and a single dual-classed cleric (Aerie) may have her work cut out for her in a party of 6. Don't worry - contrary to what seems to be popular opinion, Cleric/thieves are pretty damn powerful. Especially as long as you don't mind backstabbing with quarterstaves. Call it sneak attacking if it'll make you feel better - hey, it's in the game and noone's been in a hurry to take it out again. Cleric spells make you a decent fighter (that 1 attack/round is a **** though). Combine with mage spells through Use Any Item and scrolls to make you the most overpowered bastard on the face of the world in the late game. Gnome is probably the most powerful choice here, since they get better saving throws and priest spells make the half-orc's claim to fame (massive strength) mostly obsolete once you reach 450k experience for Cleric 9.

I agree with H_T that a ranger/cleric would fit right into this party, however. Those guys are overpowered at any level. Get the flail of the ages and a nice offhand like Blackblood or possibly the Mauler's Armif you don't have a natural 18 STR, and watch the heads roll. You wouldn't really need to worry about competition for gear either; there's so much gear floating around anyway, and you can remove this character from the biggest bottleneck (+STR items) with priest spells.
Other nice matches would be
- a dwarven Fighter/Cleric (dwarf because of the saving throw bonuses and 19 constitution)
- human Berserker -> Cleric for more priest power
- Sorcerer because you can never have enough arcane power but it's harder to find enough scrolls to go around with 3 mages in the party (this might require you to read up on sorcerer spell picks, there's a few threads on the subject since everyone loves discussing it)
- Cleric/Mage (or Cleric/Illusionist) because that's probably the most powerful class in the game. Bit fiddly to make work though. Also, again, you're slightly low on priests.
- Blade. This guy just fits in anywhere, what can I say? He's just powerful the whole way through. Nice party support with his song once he gets the HLA, too.

EDIT: Oh my god, look at all those words. I'm so sorry.

Modifié par Bobfly, 13 septembre 2011 - 09:34 .

[hannibal555]

Bobfly pretty much summed it up.
I'd just like to add the option as a Fighter/Druid for your PC.
He plays similar to the R/C but with other weapon options, and a nicer array of HLA (Elemental Princes).

Btw, I'd drop Minsc as well. One Ranger will be enough (or two if PC will be one).

Modifié par hannibal555, 13 septembre 2011 - 10:51 .

[Carinna]

AnonymousHero wrote...
Just a minor nit: WIS has no effect on saving throws and no (EDIT:offensive) spells check WIS. (Unless you're playing modded, of course.)

Fair, since the OP said he was playing unmodded.  However, if the Fixpack corrects this (and I'm thinking something basic probably does, since the Minsc in my game has always been the first whacked with charm person, etc.), that may not be what the OP meant when he/she said "unmodded."  Many people don't consider the Fixpack to be a mod (even though, yes, technically it is).  

Not that I'm right about Minsc in this capacity, necessarily, even in the Fixpack.  I was going on what always seemed to happen in my game.

Bobfly wrote...

Being a halfling gives her a 4 point bonus to saves against death, wands and spells...
(Oh, and Carinna - you seem to have your dee and dee editions messed up - there's no such thing as a size bonus in this game)

Ooooookayyyyy. A halfling bonus, then... 

edited:  Stupid quote marks ...

Modifié par Carinna, 13 septembre 2011 - 11:08 .

[Bobfly]

Ah, right, sorry. I thought you meant it would be harder for people to put swords in her due to, y'know, there being less of her to put swords into.

Modifié par Bobfly, 13 septembre 2011 - 11:16 .

[HoonDing]

Am I crazy for usually having both Nalia and Imoen in the party?

[Bobfly]

You're never crazy for having anyone in the party. Definitely in the case of Imoen and Nalia. I mean, they're mages. That means they're powerful as i'm-not-supposed-to-say-that-on-PG13-forums.

[jaxsbudgie]

Here's what I'd go with:


PC - Cavalier - tank
Mazzy - Fighter - secondary tank/ranged
Valygar - Stalker - secondary tank/stealth
Nalia - Mage/Thief - main Mage/ranged
Anomen - Fighter/Cleric - secondary tank
Aerie - Cleric/Mage - secondary Mage/secondary Cleric

In terms of who you should drop, it's a toss us between Mazzy, Nalia and Aerie.
Mazzy because by that stage of the game magic will become more powerful than melee.
Nalia because although she'd be a much better Mage than (higher level and more memorised spells) at that point, Imoen is a better Thief and can catch up. You may be too arcane heavy at that point too.
Aerie because Nalia and Imoen will be better Mages, Anomen will be a better Cleric and your PC and Valygar will have extra divine backup too. Plus having two full mages is fun.

Modifié par jaxsbudgie, 13 septembre 2011 - 11:55 .

[morbidest2]

virumor wrote...

Am I crazy for usually having both Nalia and Imoen in the party?

 
There's a lot of us in that cellblock in Spellhold        

[Humanoid_Taifun]

Minsc is likely to be a better warrior than Mazzy, since he's got better resistances and a headstart on proper proficiencies.

Bobfly wrote...
(Oh, and Carinna - you seem to have your dee and dee editions messed up - there's no such thing as a size bonus in this game)

It's not the wrong edition, it's BG2's fault. The Fixpack itself had to properly implement the bonuses against giants for the shorties that were programmed but not put to work.

from the Fixpack:
Giants Receive Penalties When Attacking Halflings, Dwarves, and Gnomes

This component gives giants their missing penalty when trying to attack undersized (halflings, dwarves, gnomes) foes. The files to accomplish this existed in BG2 but were not implemented.

hey, it's in the game and noone's been in a hurry to take it out again.

Well, by now the mods to remove the backstabbing capabilities (or at least reduce them) exist though (though it's been enough time even for slowpokes to get it done, so your point still stands).
Cleric/Thieves start getting more APR once they reach 3M XP (since with UAI, they get access to Belm and Kundane). Another way of giving them more attacks is to start them as human Priests of Lathander and dualclass them.
(and Aerie is multiclassed by the way :þ )

Carinna, I seriously cannot remember reading anything about Wisdom bonuses in the Fixpack documentations. Are you sure about this? (there is a component in the The Bigg Tweak Pack to make Wisdom add saving throw bonuses against spells, do you perhaps mean that?)

[Carinna]

Humanoid_Taifun wrote...
Carinna, I seriously cannot remember reading anything about Wisdom bonuses in the Fixpack documentations. Are you sure about this? (there is a component in the The Bigg Tweak Pack to make Wisdom add saving throw bonuses against spells, do you perhaps mean that?)

No, I said I wasn't sure if the Fixpack was the source.  I just put that in case it was the source, because I felt that, even if the OP said "no mods" he/she didn't necessarily mean the Fixpack (though some people don't like it).  I've never used the Bigg Tweak Pack - I was only going on what usually happened in my game, where Minsc inevitably gets charmed by everything in existence until I get him something to block it.  That said, even though there is no "wisdom check," does the game (without mods) not give any saving throw penalty in general for low wisdom?  - I mean set the saving throws lower for it (as opposed to an active check each time a saving throw is made)?  I thought I remembered reading on here that when creating a character, the wisdom shouldn't be set too low or bad things would result, although even a mage can overcome this with potions (Nalia does it all the time).

[polytope]

Carinna wrote...

That said, even though there is no "wisdom check," does the game (without mods) not give any saving throw penalty in general for low wisdom?  - I mean set the saving throws lower for it (as opposed to an active check each time a saving throw is made)?  I thought I remembered reading on here that when creating a character, the wisdom shouldn't be set too low or bad things would result, although even a mage can overcome this with potions (Nalia does it all the time).

It does not, to check this, just look at the saving throws of Valygar (ranger with 14 wis) and Minsc (6 wis) at the same level and without buffs.

High wisdom is desirable only for the extra cleric spell slots, an always better range of options when using Limited Wish and a higher chance of good options when using Wish proper.

The fixpack didn't change this because it requires an exe hack to function properly. In the original game there's no way for a spell or effect to directly check a creatures wisdom score - it can be done by scripts, but this would either slow the game down a lot (if added to every creatures script), or be applicable only to players (if added to the background script - baldur.bcs).

[Ishad Nha]

Magical Defense Adjustment for Wisdom is part of the pnp rules, not the first pnp rule to be broken by Black Isle. I wonder why they did not include it, surely a Wisdom check would be easy to implement.

[Goph]

Okay, so I (finally) finished my first run through SoA and I'm prepared to restart with the party advised here. I'll leave Minsc out (though I'll miss him so) and plan on dropping Nalia for Imoen once she becomes available late (though last game I kept both and Nalia was far more powerful).

I know it's not a smart fit, but I'm sticking with my fighter PC, this time playing a berserker. I don't think that's going to be any different from my last game since I never really use ranged weapons and I don't think I'll use the berserker special ability much, but I always played barbarians in PnP 3E and I'm more interested in the party than my PC this time through anyway.

A couple more questions, if you'll indulge me . . :

I tried testing this periodically last game, and it seemed like xp was granted NWN-style, meaning the xp was divided evenly, whether my party had four characters or six. Given that, am I better off leaving my party short during the time that I don't have access to my desired group, or will it not matter in the end?

I don't think I did a good job of weapon selection in my first run. I pretty much just left everyone with what it seemed like they were set up to use, and the additional proficiency points were pretty much wasted, for the most part. I plan to set my PC up to dual wield long swords, but if anyone has any recommendation as to how I should develop the other guys (or my PC, with the additional points) I'd like to hear it.

The party again:

Imoen (Nalia)
Aerie
Valygar
Mazzy
Keldorn

Thanks!

[Gate70]

I use a lot more melee in BG2 than BG1 where ranged rules. Thoughts below on what you can get relatively early.

PC. Not sure I'd go long sword, which items are you planning on using (Blade of Roses is easy to get, Daystar and Dragonslayer fairly easy but anything better is a long way into the game?)

After long sword / dual pips I'd suggest axe (Azuredge for undead/ranged although it won't dual wield and you have to select melee mode each time you equip, Stonefire for trolls and later the Axe of the Unyielding for bonuses and vorpal). War Hammer sounds good but the best two are only available quite late in the game.

Keldorn, 2 handed sword and 2 handed style. Comes with a good default weapon, plenty of alternatives around and if you get Carsomyr he's awesome. He can attack safely from behind you too. It's a bit of a casters waste but I use the amulet of power on him for negative plane protection.

Valygar. Can backstab, add something like Belm for an extra attack. If you're not going stealthy add flails (FoA, DoE), maces (disruption +2 for undead attack and defence) or add Celestial Fury. Keep a couple of shields handy (Harmony, Balduran) for when needed.

I'd keep Mazzy melee too. If you keep short sword proficiency I'd dual wield Arbane or short sword of Mask.

That leaves the casters, they both have shortbow proficiency so use it. I'd take the Tuigan bow from the Copper Coronet beastmaster and buy Tansherons Bow in Trademeet. Stick them in the middle of the party where they are less likely to be attacked (distracted).