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Humanity's Rise to Power. Unreasonable?


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#1
SandTrout

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A major complaint that frequently crops up on these forums regarding humanity's relatively rapid rise to power is that it is impractical for such a new space-faring species to exert the power that we have. The idea of Humanity being capable of such a rapid rise to prominence is only superficially implausible, though. While it is quite plausible that by the time Humanity actual achieves feasible interstellar capability, it will be outmatched by any species that are already traveling the stars, claiming that this is necessarily the case, in the circumstances presented in ME, ignores many potential variables that may have contributed to this.

Variable 1: The Martian Cache
First off, we do not know how intact the Martian cache was, relative to what other species were able to uncover. Though, evidence scarce in this area, there is actually a key tidbit during the beginning of ME1. When Anderson briefs Shepard on the Eden Prime beacon, he gives the estimation that it could potentially provide similar technical advancements as the Martian cache, estimating the overall gain from the cache at 200 years of technological advancement. This in and of itself does not mean a whole lot until you notice the point that the Council is sending Nihlus, a Spectre, with a cutting edge stealth frigate and compliment of Alliance Marines, to retrieve it.

This is actually a huge amount of resources, and a great deal of secrecy, for something that is estimated to have similar value as the Martian cache, and implies that the Martian cache may have been exceptional in its operating status and/or available data.

Variable 2: Enforced Stagnation
The Council, by its nature and the fact that it is led by the Asari, is not a shining beacon of progress. The Asari, by nature of being a long-lived species, would not be prone to embracing change in the same way that every new generation of Humans would. Asari are more prone to 'outliving' their opponents and waiting for favorable conditions, rather than making high-stakes gambles that the more short-lived species would. Through the Council, the Asari have managed to place into effect many policies that also encourage this tendency as well as preventing high-risk ventures.

The policy that started the First Contact War is a prime example of the council actively obstructing progress of the galactic community as a whole. By making illegal the activation of unmapped relay pairs, galactic exploration is drastically limited, especially since some of those relays bridge stellar gaps that are impractical for conventional FTL to traverse. The nominal purpose of this policy is to prevent another Rachni War.

However, not opening a relay pair because one side is not mapped does nothing to prevent someone on the other side from activating the relay pair on its own, meaning that at best, not opening the relay pair out of fear of the Rachni is the equivalent of sticking their head in the sand so they don't need to acknowledge that a threat is coming, until it is razing their worlds. The only practical purpose that the policy serves is to prevent species from expanding w/o Council approval.

This desire to maintain the status quo has also applied to technology, such as the treaty of Firaxan limiting fleet sizes and the genetic engineering laws, which are ignored in Medi-Gel's case. AI research is another example of the council's fear of change preventing technical advancements

Humans, however, having been outside the Galactic community and its culture of stagnation, has, over the past few decades, bent, or even broke, the rules that unduly limit progress. We have not yet assimilated the stagnant nature of Citadel culture, and have continued to press any advantage we can find, which is disconcerting to the older, more complacent species, and is why we are seen as excessively aggressive in our expansion as well as assimilating technology, gained through trade, and advancing it beyond what the other species have.

There is a fundamental cultural difference.

Variable 3: Human biological traits
Not all species are created equal, especially if they do not share many generations of evolution within the same habitat where they were constantly competeing with each other. ME actually reflects this point, mainly with the Krogan and the Rachni.

Both species had traits, including high birth-rate, that made them exceptionally difficult for the Citadel Species to counter, even with all of their diplomatic and scientific skill. These traits evolved in these two specis because their home-worlds were extremely dangerous, killing all but the most fit. While Earth is hardly a death-world similar to Tchuchanka, Humanity has been fighting each other with only brief pauses for the last 5k+ years. The Asari necessarily evolve slower due to their slow progress toward sexual maturity, and the other species appear to have been unified for a significantly longer time that the Systems Alliance has existed.

It is not unreasonable to consider the posibility that Humans are actually intrinsically superior in terms of being able to compete than other species, similar, but to a lesser degree, as the Rachni and Krogan before the Genophage. We are an alien species introduced into a ecosystem that has not yet adapted to us, similar to how certain plants and animals have been introduced to different continents on Earth in the past.

Granted, we are equally likely to be in over our heads and getting wiped out as overwhelming our new enviroment, but as I said, these are simply variables that cannot be ignored in honest analysis.

Variable 4: Population Density
It would seem that Earth had a relatively high population density prior to our expansion to other worlds. There are actually several points of note that imply this throughout both games.

The First Contact War is the first example of Humanity being outside expected parameters. The the Turians conqured Shanxi, they presumed that its fleet was the bulk of the Human forces, and that they had captured a major, if not the main human world. Shanxi had a scant population of a few million at best, meaning that the Turians believed that a few million is plenty of population to encourage a population to achieve interstellar travel.

Secondly, Thane mentions that the Drell homeworld suffered a massive population crash because they were unable to gain access to Eezo-based FTL, and that their population density was at a similar level as Earth just prior to finding the Martian cache. This means that humanity dodged a bullet regarding our population density, and managed to get off-world just in time to avoid 'critical mass'.

Finally, the Codex mentions that Humanity is considered a 'sleeping giant' because only 3% of our population enters into military service, yet we remain actively competative on the font of military power regardless.

The implications of this are subtle, but there, none the less. Most species apparently are not at the crisis point of population on their home-world when they obtain Eezo-based FTL. The premise of exceptional population levels at the begining of our interstellar travels, if true, would explain how Humanity has been able to present such a relatively large military presense and expand faster than most species.

[u]Conclusion[u]
I am not presenting this as how the writers have decided that the ME universe exists, but that they have not included things that are explicitly counter to these possibilities, and there are implications that they may have, in fact, considered them. More to the point is that these potential variables still exist, and present very practical reasons to explain how Humanity has been able to rise to the point of galactic hegemon in such a relatively short period of time.

TL;DR
We don't know enough to claim that humans rising to prominance as quickly as we have is unreasonable or not.

Modifié par SandTrout, 13 septembre 2011 - 07:42 .


#2
lovgreno

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Those are some good points of wiev. It's reasonable if the writers say it is. This is their story. I personaly would have found it more believable if it took a century or two and if the humans wasn't such a small minority.

#3
Swimming Ferret

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Hey look, this topic again!

But at least you manage to spell/type correctly and actually list your reasons, so cookies for you.

That being said, I'm just tired of the same old "Humans are awesome and achieve everything in WAY less time then any other species since we are so totally great" theme that is in pretty much every game involving aliens. Or how speshul and kewl we are and how we're the centre of the universe.

So yeah, I do think it's fairly unreasonable in the rate humans are rising. A century I could understand; but only a few decades? That's just ridiculous.

Modifié par Swimming Ferret, 13 septembre 2011 - 07:42 .


#4
Bogsnot1

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Scum always rises to the top. :whistle: 

#5
SandTrout

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Swimming Ferret wrote...

So yeah, I do think it's fairly unreasonable in the rate humans are rising. A century I could understand; but only a few decades? That's just ridiculous.

Why is it rediculous? Care to counter any of my points?

#6
SandTrout

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lovgreno wrote...

Those are some good points of wiev. It's reasonable if the writers say it is.

I actually disagree with this point as it is phrased. It is not reasonable simply because the writers say so. My point is that it is possible for them to write it in such a way that it is reasonable.

#7
Leonia

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Interesting points and while I have always been one of those that have complained that "Humans are special!" it sort of puts everything in a perspective that I can better comprehend. There's certainly more than highly adaptable genetics working in humanity's favour.

However, I will quibble on two points, while the asari councillor is the oldest councillor, I don't think she is any more in charge than the other two councillors. There's been a long-standing theory about why the council as complacent and old-fashioned, perhaps the Citadel has a really subtle indoctrination effect, but with the turian councillor there should at least be some fresh ideas coming in.

I often try to compare humanity's rise to power to that of the turians who were at the top of the pyramid before humanity showed up, though as you say, the circumstances are a bit different and humanity didn't have to stop a war like the Krogan Rebellions.

And speaking of turians..

The First Contact War is the first example of Humanity being outside expected parameters. The the Turians conqured Shanxi, they presumed that its fleet was the bulk of the Human forces, and that they had captured a major, if not the main human world. Shanxi had a scant population of a few million at best, meaning that the Turians believed that a few million is plenty of population to encourage a population to achieve interstellar travel.

I doubt that was the view they had, given their own experience on achieving FTL travel but it was first contact so whatever knowledge they had on human population numbers would have been next to nothing. They must have thought humanity was a lot bigger outside of Shanxi if they thought conquering a whole world would be necessary in what they thought was going to be a long, drawn out war.

But that said, I feel a little bit better about the whole "Humans are special" thing than I did before reading this thread so thanks!

Modifié par leonia42, 13 septembre 2011 - 07:55 .


#8
Swimming Ferret

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SandTrout wrote...

Swimming Ferret wrote...

So yeah, I do think it's fairly unreasonable in the rate humans are rising. A century I could understand; but only a few decades? That's just ridiculous.

Why is it rediculous? Care to counter any of my points?


Like what? That humans have managed to acheive in decades what some species that have been waiting centuries for having even acheived? That sounds ridiculous to me, considering we have only been around for what, thirty years or something and already have a council seat/entire council of humans? That's unreasonable. But then, so is humans taking over the whole council and every other specie doing jack about that. "Oh look humans are taking over. Should we do something?" "Nah, lets go and get a drink." That is also unreasonable that the others species would just sit by and let that happen.

We are apparently so awesome at 'thinking outside the box' and acheiving medical and scientific discoveries that even Salarians haven't acomplished. That is likewise unreasonable that they, for all their intelligence, can't achieve things in centuries that only took a few decades to create.

Same with the miltary fleet, to the point we can kick ass even compared to the militaristic Turians, who totally sucked at the BoTC and humans flew in and rescued everyone's ass while the Turians did squat. That is once again stupid.

So we breed like rabbits. Great.

So yeah, humanity's rise to power is unreasonable. Humanity has an extreme Mary-Sue complex in the ME universe.

Fairly sure I just went all over the place with this post, but whatever. Did you want me to reply to something specific?

#9
lovgreno

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SandTrout wrote...

lovgreno wrote...

Those are some good points of wiev. It's reasonable if the writers say it is.

I actually disagree with this point as it is phrased. It is not reasonable simply because the writers say so. My point is that it is possible for them to write it in such a way that it is reasonable.

Okay, true. From your point of wiev it's reasonable. From my point of wiev it's the old humanity is special trope again, but perhaps reasonable since the writers gives us the backstory.

#10
SandTrout

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lovgreno wrote...

Okay, true. From your point of wiev it's reasonable. From my point of wiev it's the old humanity is special trope again, but perhaps reasonable since the writers gives us the backstory.

Remember that Tropes are not necessarily bad. They can be done badly or they can be done well.

#11
DarthSliver

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Well many Scifi series with Space Travel with Humans and Aliens have done similar things to Humans. I mean look at Star Wars, Humans practically run the galaxy there with Aliens being mostly criminals. Than look at Star Trek, Humans run the scene there. But mine that I think it took 50 years if i remember right to get up on their feet with the Vulcans always trying to hold them back. But this is a common concept done that humans have this Spirit that Aliens dont have like a nature to expand or explore and discover new things.

#12
SandTrout

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DarthSliver wrote...

Well many Scifi series with Space Travel with Humans and Aliens have done similar things to Humans. I mean look at Star Wars, Humans practically run the galaxy there with Aliens being mostly criminals. Than look at Star Trek, Humans run the scene there. But mine that I think it took 50 years if i remember right to get up on their feet with the Vulcans always trying to hold them back. But this is a common concept done that humans have this Spirit that Aliens dont have like a nature to expand or explore and discover new things.

Honestly, the alternative is that humans are a subjugated slave/client species similar to the Volus, so unless the story is about humanity overthrowing our oppressors, it makes for a pretty dull story.

#13
Someone With Mass

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lovgreno wrote...

Those are some good points of wiev. It's reasonable if the writers say it is. This is their story. I personaly would have found it more believable if it took a century or two and if the humans wasn't such a small minority.


This.

It wouldn't make them look like they're better than any other race out there by default, which is a plain lie.

#14
SandTrout

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Someone With Mass wrote...

It wouldn't make them look like they're better than any other race out there by default, which is a plain lie.

How is it necessarily a lie?

#15
Someone With Mass

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SandTrout wrote...
How is it necessarily a lie?


Because the turian fleets alone outnumbers the humans three to one.

#16
CroGamer002

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^Humanity ain't better by default in Mass Effect universe.

Turian Hierarchy is still better in military, Asari Republics are still better in diplomacy, Salarian Union is still better in espionage, Volus are still better in economy and Elcor's are even better with Shakespeare.

Humanity is just great with all trades, but master of none and it's not unusual for humans to advance fast( compare early 20th century with late one, hell late 20th century and today!).

#17
Leonia

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With a human council, the military situation is a lot less clear. Besides you have an interesting way of defining "better" than the other species. They all have their strengths and weaknesses and I'd wager no one species (not even humanity) is at the top of the pyramid currently, the Reaper war has a chance to change that dynamic though.

#18
CroGamer002

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^Well Turians have biggest fleet in galaxy and every single Turian served in military.


Oh and their small patrol managed to conquer 1 human colony.

Modifié par Mesina2, 13 septembre 2011 - 09:16 .


#19
Dave of Canada

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Humanity, if they've taken over the Council, have established connections with the Volus and they aren't doing that bad with the other non-Council races. The Salarians don't seem to mind them much either, it's mostly the Asari and Turians which are angry.

What does this mean? It means the Human Council has done more politically within two years than the other Council, they've just had to step on a few toes to accomplish it. They've got support from the non-Council races, something which the other Council never really accomplished, and they could easily sway the Salarians to their side.

Assuming the Reaper war can hurt the Turians, Humans can dominate the galaxy. They've got minor resistance from the Asari (their military isn't that organized for larger scale conflict), though others are mostly indifferent or happier with the New Council. Add in the Human Council having control of the galaxy's economy through the Volus? Quite feasible.

Our diversity, more open ways of thinking and ties with those who didn't care much for the old Council could carry us to the top.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 13 septembre 2011 - 09:29 .


#20
azerSheppard

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Someone With Mass wrote...

lovgreno wrote...

Those are some good points of wiev. It's reasonable if the writers say it is. This is their story. I personaly would have found it more believable if it took a century or two and if the humans wasn't such a small minority.


This.

It wouldn't make them look like they're better than any other race out there by default, which is a plain lie.

You'd expect the Asari that have found the citidel so long ago to have achieved a technological breaktrough that created a gap great enough between themselves and other races to be THE dominant race. But the writers make them into strippers dancers and hookers, and this  all comes down to what the writers say, whatever it is, it's reasonable.

I mean really how in the holy ****stains did they not know about the relay statue, even if inactive it should have some sort of signal, and why in gods dirty underwear did they not research any tech from the relays?

All intelligent life must share a few common traits:
1. Agression: Willingness to take what you need, by force if need be
2. Curiosity: Spawning the need for research and achieving greater tech needed for survival

#21
Dave of Canada

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azerSheppard wrote...

You'd expect the Asari that have found the citidel so long ago to have achieved a technological breaktrough that created a gap great enough between themselves and other races to be THE dominant race.


Long-lived species.

They aren't motivated to work on something, years could pass and they might've done nothing that great. Asari society is built more on conquering other people with their live spans, their plans out-live the competition and then it can be implemented with little consequences.

Why strive to build stronger, faster, better when you're capable of ruling everybody by being peaceful (making you look ideal and benevolant?) and using your long life to outlast everybody.

Conflict breeds innovation, two very unfamiliar terms to the Asari.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 13 septembre 2011 - 09:26 .


#22
lovgreno

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SandTrout wrote...

lovgreno wrote...

Okay, true. From your point of wiev it's reasonable. From my point of wiev it's the old humanity is special trope again, but perhaps reasonable since the writers gives us the backstory.

Remember that Tropes are not necessarily bad. They can be done badly or they can be done well.

This trope kind of reminds me of how you often hear political BS from some leader trying to get more votes by saying that their country is best and that everyone should follow their lead, wich is not, has never been and will never be realisticaly possible. And yeah, the alien spiecies in ME are realy more like slightly different human cultures than realy alien and therefore I find the concept of a dominating culture, human or not, silly.

Yes, I know I shouldn't compare reality with fiction like that but since I think there are many paralells between the real world and the story I think it's not too unreasonable.

And if someone takes this as a opinion about real world politics that is all in your head. To me the humans and aliens do NOT represent any special real life human country, culture or ideology. And let me remind everyone that real life politics are forbidden in these forums so let's not have a lock because of your abuse of the rules please.

#23
azerSheppard

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Dave of Canada wrote...

azerSheppard wrote...

You'd expect the Asari that have found the citidel so long ago to have achieved a technological breaktrough that created a gap great enough between themselves and other races to be THE dominant race.


Long-lived species.

They aren't motivated to work on something, years could pass and they might've done nothing that great. Asari society is built more on conquering other people with their live spans, their plans out-live the competition and then it can be implemented with little consequences.

Why strive to build stronger, faster, better when you're capable of ruling everybody by being peaceful (making you look ideal and benevolant?) and using your long life to outlast everybody.

Conflict breeds innovation, two very unfamiliar terms to the Asari.

Are you telling me that the asari always outlived other species, even before they met them? Long lived doesn't mean no motivation, infact if human scientist could live a couple of centuries longer their research would be far more complete, it's harder to pick up something someone else left behind than finish it yourself. Take a look at Albert Einstein, many of his pridictions came trough, if he lived a century longer we would have had a unification theory by now.

Many futurists and scientist agree that all alien lifeforms that are evolved enough to achieve space travel are oppurtunistic and agressive, my point is that the asari don't make sense in this regards, and it's due to the limitations of the writers, and not the Asari nature.

#24
Someone With Mass

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azerSheppard wrote...

You'd expect the Asari that have found the citidel so long ago to have achieved a technological breaktrough that created a gap great enough between themselves and other races to be THE dominant race. But the writers make them into strippers dancers and hookers, and this  all comes down to what the writers say, whatever it is, it's reasonable.

I mean really how in the holy ****stains did they not know about the relay statue, even if inactive it should have some sort of signal, and why in gods dirty underwear did they not research any tech from the relays?

All intelligent life must share a few common traits:
1. Agression: Willingness to take what you need, by force if need be
2. Curiosity: Spawning the need for research and achieving greater tech needed for survival


The whole thing about domination is so overrated.

The asari have no reason to dominate every single race or part of the galaxy, since they're thriving of what they already have.

I also find the "rigthful place" BS to be so laughably bad, since humanity hasn't proven that they're worthy of controlling the galaxy at all. Quite the opposite, really. 

#25
didymos1120

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azerSheppard wrote...

Are you telling me that the asari always outlived other species, even before they met them?


Why do you think they would not have done so?  Even factoring in historical variance due to level of technological development, they still would have lived longer than any other species except for possibly krogan, but due to the latter's extremely hostile world and culture, that's highly unlikely.  And unless the asari underwent some ridiculously turbocharged evolution recently, the age at which they become reproductively active would not have changed significantly for a very long, long, long time.

Modifié par didymos1120, 13 septembre 2011 - 09:56 .