265 réponses à ce sujet

[Dean_the_Young]

When the person on the ground presumably has a better idea of what's going on, following their advice when you yourself are blinded by distance is exactly what a superior general officer should do.


Also, the Council doesn't care squat about democracy. And a war-hero's endorsement would have weight even in a democratic society.

[Someone With Mass]

Anacronian Stryx wrote...

Except for the little fact that a Spectre don't get to give orders to a Alliance admiral no matter how delusional of his/her importance that Spectre might be.

Shepard had the control of the relay system and the Citadel arms. I'd say that puts him/her in a postion slightly above Hackett.

[Someone With Mass]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...



:lol::lol::lol:This is hillarious.

Shep isn't a some tin-pot dictator. He can't do "what he wants". To think that he can place people in political pwoer on a whim, just because he's a Spectre?????
What the hell are you smoking?

The same stuff that turns you into an obnoxious little sh*t stain.

[Anacronian Stryx]

Someone With Mass wrote...

Anacronian Stryx wrote...

Except for the little fact that a Spectre don't get to give orders to a Alliance admiral no matter how delusional of his/her importance that Spectre might be.

Shepard had the control of the relay system and the Citadel arms. I'd say that puts him/her in a postion slightly above Hackett.

Yeah and if the decision was made by Shepard waiting to unlock the relay - then that point would have merit, But he/she doesn't in each case the alliance fleet enters citadel space at the same point in time, The one where the council dies the alliance fleet just hangs back and watch it happens.

In reality the fleet would have jumped in and then Hackett would have made the decisions based on his interpretation of the battlefield.

Modifié par Anacronian Stryx, 15 septembre 2011 - 02:13 .

[AlexXIV]

Humanity's rise to power is not unreasonable. Other species (in ME at least) don't have a superior mind or something. If anything they are techologically more advanced and even they had help from the Reapers (Citadel). All species are relatively young, since the only known 'elder' species are Proteans/Collectors and the keepers on the Citadel. So basically humans do not have a genetic disadvantage or anything, they are the same level, just different.
 
The question for me though is whether it is a good idea if humans spread all over the galaxy. Human nature is not exactly caring when it comes to other life forms. For example there are already too many human beings on earth and our numbers will be growing until the governments of the nations will put laws in effect that forbid people to have too many children. Like they do already in China. Because human nature is ultimately selfish. Well but we probably have that in common with every other life form.

[Someone With Mass]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

When the person on the ground presumably has a better idea of what's going on, following their advice when you yourself are blinded by distance is exactly what a superior general officer should do.


Also, the Council doesn't care squat about democracy. And a war-hero's endorsement would have weight even in a democratic society.

That still doesn't justify the humans' sudden jump in power by taking over the Citadel. While the older Council wasn't ruling by democratic standards, I find it very unlikely that they didn't have any replacements in the case of their unfortunate deaths.

Especially when it happens all the time in politics.

[Someone With Mass]

Anacronian Stryx wrote...

Yeah and if the decision was made by Shepard waiting to unlock the relay - then that point would have merit, But he/she doesn't in each case the alliance fleet enters citadel space at the same point in time, The one where the council dies the alliance fleet just hangs back and watch it happens.

In reality the fleet would have jumped in and then Hackett would have made the decisions based on his interpretation of the battlefield.

It looked more like they were racing towards the Citadel arms to me.

Why they didn't focus on eliminating the geth and then went in after Sovereign to not get ambushed in that kind of close space in the middle of the battle is beyond me, though.

Modifié par Someone With Mass, 15 septembre 2011 - 02:36 .

[AlexXIV]

Someone With Mass wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

When the person on the ground presumably has a better idea of what's going on, following their advice when you yourself are blinded by distance is exactly what a superior general officer should do.


Also, the Council doesn't care squat about democracy. And a war-hero's endorsement would have weight even in a democratic society.

That still doesn't justify the humans' sudden jump in power by taking over the Citadel. While the older Council wasn't ruling by democratic standards, I find it very unlikely that they didn't have any replacements in the case of their unfortunate deaths.

Especially when it happens all the time in politics.

Maybe the Asari, Turians and Salarians secretly know about the Reaper invasion, so the voluntarily let the humans carry the war standart.

[Sylvianus]

Humans were already well developed before they meet the Turian in 2157.

To me, with the new understanding of galactic society ( new technology, economics, social model, etc.) such as China, India or Russia when they have adapted to capitalism, a leap is not surprising.

In my opinion 30 years seems too little to reach the same level ( I would prefer 60 years ) but after all, China and Germany did the same thing at a time in less than forty years. I see no problem to imagine that centuries later, at the time of the consumer society, and information, it is very easy to grow.

Then they had already begun construction of a mass navy before Arcturus, we do not know when the massive weapons program stopped and even if it stopped now.

But humanity is anyway not yet an assumed power like China today. She became a council member because of its merits and its acts of war, not because of its potential that has not yet shown all its capabilities. China is member of the Security Council of the UN, but it is still not a true power like America in some aspects.

So for me, not unreasonable.

Modifié par Sylvianus, 15 septembre 2011 - 02:50 .

[Anacronian Stryx]

Someone With Mass wrote...

Anacronian Stryx wrote...

Yeah and if the decision was made by Shepard waiting to unlock the relay - then that point would have merit, But he/she doesn't in each case the alliance fleet enters citadel space at the same point in time, The one where the council dies the alliance fleet just hangs back and watch it happens.

In reality the fleet would have jumped in and then Hackett would have made the decisions based on his interpretation of the battlefield.

It looked more like they were racing towards the Citadel arms to me.

Why they didn't focus on eliminating the geth and then went in after Sovereign to not get ambushed in that kind of close space in the middle of the battle is beyond me, though.

Death of the council

And of cause it makes no sense, as you point out they are going to have to deal with the Geth no matter what and even from a tactical point having the DA to help with that makes sense.

The only reasons these kind of decisions are in the game is to have players think "ohh I'm so important" no matter how little sense it makes in the situation.

[Dean_the_Young]

Someone With Mass wrote...

That still doesn't justify the humans' sudden jump in power by taking over the Citadel.

I don't recall saying it did. Or perhaps you're confusing me with someone else?

While the older Council wasn't ruling by democratic standards, I find it very unlikely that they didn't have any replacements in the case of their unfortunate deaths.

They did. According to the codex and narrative, however, much of the entire Council bureacracy network got wiped out in the attack, even if the Council survived: that's why C-SEC has humans regardless. That presumably also includes their replacements... who may well have died regardless in the Paragon choice, but no one really noticed or cared because it's easier to replace a replacement in waiting.

The Council-governance wasn't entirely on the Destiny Ascension. Whether the Council lives or not, the system takes it to the chin. The theme of the Alliance being a necessary addition to help with the running of galactic governance was a background theme in ME2.

Especially when it happens all the time in politics.

Yeah, the US has gone through a good five presidents already today, and it's not even noon.

[Medhia Nox]

I'm lazy - what was human colonization technology like prior to the magical Prothean Ex Machina?

War vehicles will not be the first space ships developed (and, they were not already).

Why did humans even have a standing space military? Were human colonies fighting wars? Or - did the human race spend trillions of dollars and resources - "just in case" we met a militant race?

====

My next problem is - where do these resources come from? Then - who controls them? You think China's going to let the U.S. "own" space? How about Russia? Japan? Europe? The world isn't going to sit idly by and watch one nation achieve dominance of the solar system.

We need "space": colonization, mining, refining, transportation, economic policy (you think people will just do this crap because "space is so cool"?), social reform would be necessary (what nations get to claim the moon, mars, the asteroid belt, etc. etc.- what citizens get to go? Taxation - quality control - worker safety - etc. etc.)

The amount of alterations that need to take place before the human race becomes space faring are insurmountable in 100 years. Fortunately - I won't be around to say "I told you so." (I'm a firm believer in human mortality - people live way too long - hence "fortunately") - but, I'm confident I would be able to say it .Even without a magical boost to our technology.

[eye basher]

someone tell this guy above me the history of the Alliance please.

[Medhia Nox]

*sigh* I'll go look it up - but I bet it won't answer any of my questions.

=====

So, in 111 years from now - we've got mining on Mars. Sure thing. 

Then - we find magical Prothean knowledge - alright, I'll buy it. I'm sure ancient space civilizations have seeded our solar system. It provides 

Unifying effect on politics - let me regale you with a test "summit" that was held for the World Future Energy Summit.  With our planet's ecosystem "changing" (climate change or global warming depending on who wants to accept or re-direct blame) - this "test" summit was a total failure with the U.S. making demands - and the rest of the world saying: "If you want your demands met - give us your technology." And the U.S. said: "No." 

And that's real life people - with real issues.  Humanity isn't just going to start hugging once we find out there are aliens "out there". 

Modifié par Medhia Nox, 15 septembre 2011 - 03:22 .

[marshalleck]

Anacronian Stryx wrote...

And of cause it makes no sense, as you point out they are going to have to deal with the Geth no matter what and even from a tactical point having the DA to help with that makes sense.

No it doesn't, you don't know how dreadnoughts are used in combat. Dreadnoughts are terrible at close quarters combat which is why it got its ass kicked by the geth in the first place and needed saving.

Modifié par marshalleck, 15 septembre 2011 - 03:16 .

[Dean_the_Young]

Medhia Nox wrote...

I'm lazy - what was human colonization technology like prior to the magical Prothean Ex Machina?

Humans got a science expedition to Mars. And... that's about it. Everything else of note happened after e-zero.

War vehicles will not be the first space ships developed (and, they were not already).

Why did humans even have a standing space military? Were human colonies fighting wars? Or - did the human race spend trillions of dollars and resources - "just in case" we met a militant race?

More of the second, though the lack of Protheans rather did demonstrate that there were other races, and things did make them disappear.

More to the point, however, there were still national rivalries before FCW. From one dev's conceptual (ie, not exactly canonical) interpretation, the Alliance ships were the hand-me-downs of the earth nations, back before the Alliance gained primacy. The most likely candidate for the Earth nations to want weapons against was... eachother.

My next problem is - where do these resources come from? Then - who controls them? You think China's going to let the U.S. "own" space? How about Russia? Japan? Europe? The world isn't going to sit idly by and watch one nation achieve dominance of the solar system.

The Alliance controls the space resources, and the Alliance is the compromise-child of China (if it exists) and the US (which doesn't) and Europe and etc.

The Alliance was the space-development cooperation organ. It didn't gain real weight until it mobilized and stole the initiative during the FCW, while the earth nations bickered. Political subtext was that a deal was cut: Earth nations get Earth, but everything beyond got managed by the Alliance because it proved itself capable while the Earth nations bickered. Since the Alliance sends most the colonial resources to Earth, win-win mostly.

We need "space": colonization, mining, refining, transportation, economic policy (you think people will just do this crap because "space is so cool"?), social reform would be necessary (what nations get to claim the moon, mars, the asteroid belt, etc. etc.- what citizens get to go? Taxation - quality control - worker safety - etc. etc.)

That's the Alliance. The timeframe is screwed up, but the Alliance is the organ that does most of that: it manages, regulates, legislates with the input of Earth, and organizes.

The amount of alterations that need to take place before the human race becomes space faring are insurmountable in 100 years. Fortunately - I won't be around to say "I told you so." (I'm a firm believer in human mortality - people live way too long - hence "fortunately") - but, I'm confident I would be able to say it .Even without a magical boost to our technology.

Of course, but a hundred years is far more handwavable and acceptable then twenty, because you can justify a lot more good things over a hundred+ years. Cultural change to colonization society, especially. You'll never be able to make a 'accurate' social model, but with the benefits of magical tech boost you certainly can handwave a lot more as having occured somewhere in a human-significant amount of time than a short amount of time.

[Dean_the_Young]

marshalleck wrote...

Anacronian Stryx wrote...

And of cause it makes no sense, as you point out they are going to have to deal with the Geth no matter what and even from a tactical point having the DA to help with that makes sense.

No it doesn't, you don't know how dreadnoughts are used in combat. Dreadnoughts are terrible at close quarters combat which is why it got its ass kicked by the geth in the first place and needed saving.

And, well, it's shields are down, it's maneuverability is shot, and it's still going to do what it was trying to do, ie escape.

[Medhia Nox]

@Dean_The_Young: Oh, I'm not attacking ME... I'll play 3 and enjoy it. I'm just throwing my 2 cents out there about whether I personally find the timeline worth holding on to.

I don't. I think it's preposterous.

So - I completely ignore the back story because if I were to entertain it much - I would find it very lacking. No big - different things appeal to different folks.

EDIT: Yeah - and Earth nations giving up "anything" is equally laughable. I thought this was science fiction - not fantasy (it is fantasy, but I digress).

Modifié par Medhia Nox, 15 septembre 2011 - 03:28 .

[Sylvianus]

Medhia Nox wrote...

I'm lazy - what was human colonization technology like prior to the magical Prothean Ex Machina?

War vehicles will not be the first space ships developed (and, they were not already).

Why did humans even have a standing space military? Were human colonies fighting wars? Or - did the human race spend trillions of dollars and resources - "just in case" we met a militant race?

====

My next problem is - where do these resources come from? Then - who controls them? You think China's going to let the U.S. "own" space? How about Russia? Japan? Europe? The world isn't going to sit idly by and watch one nation achieve dominance of the solar system.

For me it is credible. Today we already see that space exploration is becoming more and more expensive. And it will be even more expensive in the future. Europe has united to continue, and soon the United States, China could no longer bear to pay alone too. . All countries can work together to lower costs, and after the economy union comes political union. As the European Union.

Of course, that political union was failing, and the the first war contact  has demonstrated it. The efficiency of the fleet of the Alliance (NATO =) demonstrated the need  for all human nations to unite to protect themself against Aliens. That's how it started. For me it's not hard to believe  when you look at NATO.

 And for your other questions, I see lots of possible answers, and assumptions.  But it's not worth the beating in my opinion, Mass Effect is and remains a video game, to dive into the details of  the economy is not really desirable or relevant.

Modifié par Sylvianus, 15 septembre 2011 - 03:30 .

[Someone With Mass]

The Prothean ruins on Mars had apparently enough eezo to power a fleet and then some enough to allow the humans to travel to other planets and hit the motherload of eezo. Because I doubt they can find any natural element zero inside our solar system.

[Anacronian Stryx]

marshalleck wrote...

Anacronian Stryx wrote...

And of cause it makes no sense, as you point out they are going to have to deal with the Geth no matter what and even from a tactical point having the DA to help with that makes sense.

No it doesn't, you don't know how dreadnoughts are used in combat. Dreadnoughts are terrible at close quarters combat which is why it got its ass kicked by the geth in the first place and needed saving.

Doesn't matter how dreadnaughts are used in battle, By it's mere presence the DA would soak up enemy fire that would otherwise be aimed at the alliance ships - there is no rationale behind staying back watch the DA get shoot up and wait to engage until the Geth ships can fully concentrate on the alliance ships.

Remember the citadel only opens after the DA's fate has been decided so there is no reason to race to that either.

The alliance fleet jumps in and sees the geth concentrating on the DA, As a admiral he should be able to see what a opportunity this presents.

"Enemy shooting at somebody else?.. hallelujah people you don't get this kind of opportunity often in battle.. FIRE EVERYTHING!"

But instead of cause we just have the geth magically disappearing in the "death of the council" scenario because if they actually did show that you would have to deal with the geth anyway the decision to kill the council would look even dumber.

Modifié par Anacronian Stryx, 15 septembre 2011 - 03:40 .

[Medhia Nox]

Protheans are so nice to power our fleet.

Praise be to the Enkindlers!

[Dean_the_Young]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@Dean_The_Young: Oh, I'm not attacking ME... I'll play 3 and enjoy it. I'm just throwing my 2 cents out there about whether I personally find the timeline worth holding on to.

I don't. I think it's preposterous.

So - I completely ignore the back story because if I were to entertain it much - I would find it very lacking. No big - different things appeal to different folks.

I didn't think you were attacking, and I sincerely apologize if I came off brisk or rude. I was just tring to answer your questions. I fully agree that the backstory history is one of the weakest parts of Mass Effect, and that the time frame as is lacks. (Like Miranda was created within five years of the Mars discovery, a near-perfect biotic before biotics were even understood.)

EDIT: Yeah - and Earth nations giving up "anything" is equally laughable. I thought this was science fiction - not fantasy (it is fantasy, but I digress).

It's not without precedent in history, though I agree the backstory could use a tune up.

If you'd like to browse something I think works better, PM me in private and I'll point you there. Someone set up an extensive conceptual (Renegade) rewrite of Mass Effect.

[Wulfram]

The history of the Alliance does stretch credulity. A year after the discovery of Mass Effect physics, the 18 largest nations of the world all come together to form an alliance for the colonisation of space. Which include the creation of a fleet and navy capable of fighting effectively against people who were fighting a galactic war when we were still in the Dark Ages.

[Anacronian Stryx]

Wulfram wrote...

The history of the Alliance does stretch credulity. A year after the discovery of Mass Effect physics, the 18 largest nations of the world all come together to form an alliance for the colonisation of space. Which include the creation of a fleet and navy capable of fighting effectively against people who were fighting a galactic war when we were still in the Dark Ages.

I think there was a removed storyline there somewhere, I remember way back in 2006 or so that the devs dropped hints that the findings on mars wasn't all that surprising(there were even hints that it wasn't the first Protheon data cache found) and that the formation of the alliance went way faster than anybody would anticipate.. i guess there was some kind of conspiracy plot that was dropped.

Though it's to old to go link hunting.