265 réponses à ce sujet

[Dave of Canada]

azerSheppard wrote...

Are you telling me that the asari always outlived other species, even before they met them? *snip*

Small Asari timeline:
Asari spend a long time doing things until they discover the Citadel.
They adopt the Citadel as their own, it's the pinnacle of Asari civilization and within one lifespan:
Asari found the Citadel.
First contact with the Salarians.
Asari made the Council with the Salarians.
Asari Council established contact with the Volus.
Asari Council make the credit the galaxy's currency.
First contact with the Batarians.
First contact with the Quarians.
First contact with the Hanar.
They have the Rachni War.
First contact with the Krogan.
The Krogan are used as weapons to eliminate the Rachni.
First contact with the Turians.
Asari Council launch the genophage.

Assuming the Asari Councilor was around 300 years old and wasn't replaced until 1000, all of this was achieved within that one Councilor's lifetime. Her thoughts, opinions, beliefs and such persisted through the countless Salarian Council members. Eventually it's applied regardless of the opposition, a child can only bother a parent so much before it gets bored.

How does the Salarian establish anything for his or her own people when the Asari can barely notice their presence before they die? Why do the Asari need to innovate their technologies further than what they've already got when it works perfectly fine and people provide everything to them?

They've adopted everything they required from other societies, didn't achieve anything to use for themselves and rule by diplomacy because they wouldn't be able to do anything any other way.

Around three Asari generations later, we've finally reached present day (ME1):
Asari have Salarians for the scientific needs.
Asari have Turians for their military.
Asari have Volus for their economy.
Asari see potential to use humanity.

Asari are aggressive by doing absolutely nothing but consuming other cultures into their own, their entire society encourages breeding with other species eliminating any offspring from that potential partner. Anybody who threatens Asari are infact threatened by all the resources they've essentially "consumed".

Until Shepard eliminates the Council, stirring the pot and screwing up their whole balance, that is. This leaves the people who the Asari don't view as important in a position to advance, friendships can be forged and the Asari can be pushed out of the picture. They lost their only advantage in the galaxy's politcs.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 13 septembre 2011 - 10:11 .

[SkittlesKat96]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Humanity, if they've taken over the Council, have established connections with the Volus and they aren't doing that bad with the other non-Council races. The Salarians don't seem to mind them much either, it's mostly the Asari and Turians which are angry.

What does this mean? It means the Human Council has done more politically within two years than the other Council, they've just had to step on a few toes to accomplish it. They've got support from the non-Council races, something which the other Council never really accomplished, and they could easily sway the Salarians to their side.

Assuming the Reaper war can hurt the Turians, Humans can dominate the galaxy. They've got minor resistance from the Asari (their military isn't that organized for larger scale conflict), though others are mostly indifferent or happier with the New Council. Add in the Human Council having control of the galaxy's economy through the Volus? Quite feasible.

Our diversity, more open ways of thinking and ties with those who didn't care much for the old Council could carry us to the top.

I agree with this completely (I have a bit of a dislike for Turians and Asari personally, and the way the Citadel council works.)

Although I hope you aren't a Dedenite and think that if you can't save humanity you may as well let the Reapers keep genociding (assuming Reapers aren't technically the good guys)

[Dave of Canada]

SkittlesKat96 wrote...

Although I hope you aren't a Dedenite and think that if you can't save humanity you may as well let the Reapers keep genociding (assuming Reapers aren't technically the good guys)

Nope, saving humanity is preferable though.

[Wulfram]

The Martian Cache is supposed to outclass the Citadel and every prothean remnant found by all the races of the galaxy?

The OP ignores the other founding Council race. The Salarians, who are characterised by short life spans and quick, non linear thinking. Not a recipe for stagnation.

Humanity may or may not have had a high population for a pre-Mass Effect species. It's beyond the limit of my credulity that it has a particularly large population on a galactic scale, though. After all 3 Korlus's would more or less add up to one earth.

Which leaves the 3rd option mentioned, which more or less amounts to "Humans are Special" or, to put it another way, "Aliens are moronic unambitious cowards". Which may be true, but isn't exactly satisfying to me.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Someone With Mass wrote...
The whole thing about domination is so overrated.

The asari have no reason to dominate every single race or part of the galaxy, since they're thriving of what they already have.

I also find the "rigthful place" BS to be so laughably bad, since humanity hasn't proven that they're worthy of controlling the galaxy at all. Quite the opposite, really.

Worth is a silly concept when applied to races. Tell me, who is worthy of what?
Who is worthy to live? Who is worthy to dominate?

Asari are space leeches + fanservice in one package. The day their race is wiped from the galaxy is a day of joy and celebration.

[Someone With Mass]

No race is worth of any dominating power of large parts of the galaxy, as it's not far off from dictatorship and they're more than likely too ignorant to realize what's best for different species.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Well..that's like,your oppinion man.

You can't objectively prove worth. And even if you could, thre's nothing you can do about it.

[KotorEffect3]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Someone With Mass wrote...
The whole thing about domination is so overrated.

The asari have no reason to dominate every single race or part of the galaxy, since they're thriving of what they already have.

I also find the "rigthful place" BS to be so laughably bad, since humanity hasn't proven that they're worthy of controlling the galaxy at all. Quite the opposite, really.

Worth is a silly concept when applied to races. Tell me, who is worthy of what?
Who is worthy to live? Who is worthy to dominate?

Asari are space leeches + fanservice in one package. The day their race is wiped from the galaxy is a day of joy and celebration.

Reading crap like this makes me tempted to make saving Thessia a higher priority than saving Earth.  Oh well I can't wait to wipe cerberus out.  TIM is a dead man and if MIranda gets in my way she is a dead woman.

[didymos1120]

Why are so many people around here so enamored of genocide?

[Someone With Mass]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Well..that's like,your oppinion man.

You can't objectively prove worth. And even if you could, thre's nothing you can do about it.

Yeah, I know being worthy is a matter of perspective and opinion, and I can do something about it, hence the choices in ME3.

[Someone With Mass]

KotorEffect3 wrote...

Reading crap like this makes me tempted to make saving Thessia a higher priority than saving Earth.  Oh well I can't wait to wipe cerberus out.  TIM is a dead man and if MIranda gets in my way she is a dead woman.

TIM is dead either way, since he's only in the way.

[Valdrane78]

Humans have always been a highly adaptive species, so it isn't outside the realm of possibilities that we've adapted quickly to our new surroundings. As far as military power goes, even though we are not as strong as say the turians or asari, we've adopted a guerilla style of combat, swift moving battalions going behind enemy lines destroying command and control stations along with supply lines. We avoid head on combat knowing we would loose.

That all being said, I do think that we adapted a tad too fast, maybe add another 3 decades to the timeline would put us in the proper place. However we have proven to the council races that we can get the job done despite being at a disadvantage.

Modifié par Valdrane78, 13 septembre 2011 - 12:41 .

[Ieldra]

@OP:
I agree with everything you've said, SandTrout, but my view that humanity's rise to power is implausible is based on a different argument: economic growth, population growth and colonization speed.

Population and colonization:
According to the Codex, humanity has "a dozen settled colonies and a few hundred industrial outposts" about 36 years after discovering the Charon relay. A settled colony appears to be one with about four or five million people, given the planet descriptions of Eden Prime, Bekenstein and others, let's say about 50 million all in all, and let's say another 50 million. Now consider that most of these colonists will be immigrants, since the oldest colonies cannot be more than about one generation old.

Which means that all the colonies together are not more than 1% of the total human population (Earth has 11 billion). For all intents and purposes, humanity does not have significantly more population than a single garden world can support. I do not have such data for the other species, but I think it's a foregone conclusion that after 20 or 40 generations the picture looks very much different for the non-human species, even if they have started out with less, and that humanity does not have the smallest hope of catching up in population with say, the turians or the volus, in any reasonable timeframe, except if controversial reproductive technologies like cloning and tank-breeding are adopted. We have seen no sign of that.

(BTW, I could say that the current state of things is already implausible: imagine constructing a whole mega-city infrastructure like on Bekenstein from basically nothing in only 35 years. But for the sake of the argument, let's assume technology makes it possible)

Economy:
In ME1, the turian councilor spoke of "a few dozen colonies" as if that were a pittance - I have taken this to be the bias of a superpower with many, many colonies. How many colonies must you have to see it that way? For a few dozen, let's say 100, to be a pittance I think it's a reasonable estimation that those 100 will not make up more than 5% of the total, very likely closer to 1% since the loss of 5% of your territory or population will not be seen as insignificant. Which means that the turians will have between 2000 and 10000 colonies. In an unrelated post, I have estimated them at about 7000, with about a tenth of them being "established colony worlds". Then add that after 1500 years (maybe more, the timeline is not clear on that) of colonization the established colonies will be closer in population to Illium (80 million) than to Bekenstein (5 million).

You can see the picture. I think it's an inescapable conclusion that the economies of the Asari Republics (which is said to be the strongest) and the Turian Hierarchy have about a hundreds times the economic output of Earth and its colonies put together. Make humans special and say they have five times the average per-capita productivity due to innovation and you'll still end up with a factor of 20 or so. It's plainly impossible that humanity could've caught up with the non-human economies in only 36 years.

And political power and military strength both require a strong economy. Humanity's rise to a power rivaling the Council species' in only 35 years is ridiculous. They should've added a zero to the time periods between the important events in humanity's timeline after discovery of the Charon Relay.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 13 septembre 2011 - 12:50 .

[Swimming Ferret]

didymos1120 wrote...

Why are so many people around here so enamored of genocide?

I think it's this place.

[Someone With Mass]

Valdrane78 wrote...

Humans have always been a highly adaptive species, so it isn't outside the realm of possibilities that we've adapted quickly to our new surroundings. As far as military power goes, even though we are not as strong as say the turians or asari, we've adopted a guerilla style of combat, swift moving battalions going behind enemy lines destroying command and control stations along with supply lines. We avoid head on combat knowing we would loose.

That all being said, I do think that we adapted a tad too fast, maybe add another 3 decades to the timeline would put us in the proper place. However we have proven to the council races that we can get the job done despite being at a disadvantage.

If you ask me, I think it has always been the opposite. We adapted the surroundings to our preference instead of adapting to it. It's pretty much how and why we built entire cities.

[DRUNK_CANADIAN]

This is fiction after all, I'd have bigger issue with the "force-like" biotics...

[Lotion Soronarr]

KotorEffect3 wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Someone With Mass wrote...
The whole thing about domination is so overrated.

The asari have no reason to dominate every single race or part of the galaxy, since they're thriving of what they already have.

I also find the "rigthful place" BS to be so laughably bad, since humanity hasn't proven that they're worthy of controlling the galaxy at all. Quite the opposite, really.

Worth is a silly concept when applied to races. Tell me, who is worthy of what?
Who is worthy to live? Who is worthy to dominate?

Asari are space leeches + fanservice in one package. The day their race is wiped from the galaxy is a day of joy and celebration.

Reading crap like this makes me tempted to make saving Thessia a higher priority than saving Earth.  Oh well I can't wait to wipe cerberus out.  TIM is a dead man and if MIranda gets in my way she is a dead woman.

hahahaa.....oh man.

How easily can some peoples button be pushed...

But seriously.  I doubt my descritpion is wrong. Biologicly and by design, Asari are leeches + fenaservice.

[Wulfram]

Another reason why the timeline could do with being extended is that it would make humanity's chip on the shoulder look a bit more sensible. Complaining about the Council holding you back when you're on the edge of Council membership in the blink of an eye just makes you look like a bunch of whiny jerks.

[Jakedee010v2]

Human dominance is bad. The universe would end up a bombsite. I say "this is an outrage!"

Modifié par Jakedee010v2, 13 septembre 2011 - 01:29 .

[zingro]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

KotorEffect3 wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Someone With Mass wrote...
The whole thing about domination is so overrated.

The asari have no reason to dominate every single race or part of the galaxy, since they're thriving of what they already have.

I also find the "rigthful place" BS to be so laughably bad, since humanity hasn't proven that they're worthy of controlling the galaxy at all. Quite the opposite, really.

Worth is a silly concept when applied to races. Tell me, who is worthy of what?
Who is worthy to live? Who is worthy to dominate?

Asari are space leeches + fanservice in one package. The day their race is wiped from the galaxy is a day of joy and celebration.

Reading crap like this makes me tempted to make saving Thessia a higher priority than saving Earth.  Oh well I can't wait to wipe cerberus out.  TIM is a dead man and if MIranda gets in my way she is a dead woman.

hahahaa.....oh man.

How easily can some peoples button be pushed...

But seriously.  I doubt my descritpion is wrong. Biologicly and by design, Asari are leeches + fenaservice.

lol I smell fail all over this, keep it going guys.

[Jakedee010v2]

zingro wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

KotorEffect3 wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Someone With Mass wrote...
The whole thing about domination is so overrated.

The asari have no reason to dominate every single race or part of the galaxy, since they're thriving of what they already have.

I also find the "rigthful place" BS to be so laughably bad, since humanity hasn't proven that they're worthy of controlling the galaxy at all. Quite the opposite, really.

Worth is a silly concept when applied to races. Tell me, who is worthy of what?
Who is worthy to live? Who is worthy to dominate?

Asari are space leeches + fanservice in one package. The day their race is wiped from the galaxy is a day of joy and celebration.

Reading crap like this makes me tempted to make saving Thessia a higher priority than saving Earth.  Oh well I can't wait to wipe cerberus out.  TIM is a dead man and if MIranda gets in my way she is a dead woman.

hahahaa.....oh man.

How easily can some peoples button be pushed...

But seriously.  I doubt my descritpion is wrong. Biologicly and by design, Asari are leeches + fenaservice.

lol I smell fail all over this, keep it going guys.

What have the asari done wrong? They were first off the block, good for them.

Modifié par Jakedee010v2, 13 septembre 2011 - 01:27 .

[armass]

Unrealistic? Definately.

But it's a story with human writers, what do you expect.

Modifié par armass, 13 septembre 2011 - 01:30 .

[Leonia]

armass wrote...

Unrealistic? Definately.

But it's a story with human writers, what do you expect.

I demand the next game be written by non-humans!

[Jakedee010v2]

leonia42 wrote...

armass wrote...

Unrealistic? Definately.

But it's a story with human writers, what do you expect.

I demand the next game be written by non-humans!

Stamped and approved.

[armass]

I think the prothean base on Mars had a lot to do with it also, it gaves us technology on par with the rest of the galaxy. Jumped us way ahead in normal development time. We didn't earn it, it was just handed to us on silver platter. It's almost the same as one species uplifting the other.

I find it odd that technology gains have been so stagnant in the galaxy for 2000 years. Youd imagine some race like the salarians had come up with a decent reverse engineered version of the mass relay by now. Or medigel, or carriers... Doesnt make sense really.

Modifié par armass, 13 septembre 2011 - 01:46 .