265 réponses à ce sujet

[OmegaXI]

leonia42 wrote...

armass wrote...

Unrealistic? Definately.

But it's a story with human writers, what do you expect.

I demand the next game be written by non-humans!

 Monkeys writing a video game I'm all for this

[Lotion Soronarr]

OmegaXI wrote...

leonia42 wrote...

armass wrote...

Unrealistic? Definately.

But it's a story with human writers, what do you expect.

I demand the next game be written by non-humans!

 Monkeys writing a video game I'm all for this

Just give em time. We'll get Sheakspere!

[Medhia Nox]

Just more human-centrism - Bioware knows what it's doing folks. Self-aware creatures are enamored by their own reflection.

[Bad King]

SandTrout wrote...

Variable 3: Human biological traits
Not all species are created equal, especially if they do not share many generations of evolution within the same habitat where they were constantly competeing with each other. ME actually reflects this point, mainly with the Krogan and the Rachni.

Both species had traits, including high birth-rate, that made them exceptionally difficult for the Citadel Species to counter, even with all of their diplomatic and scientific skill. These traits evolved in these two specis because their home-worlds were extremely dangerous, killing all but the most fit. While Earth is hardly a death-world similar to Tchuchanka, Humanity has been fighting each other with only brief pauses for the last 5k+ years. The Asari necessarily evolve slower due to their slow progress toward sexual maturity, and the other species appear to have been unified for a significantly longer time that the Systems Alliance has existed.

It is not unreasonable to consider the posibility that Humans are actually intrinsically superior in terms of being able to compete than other species, similar, but to a lesser degree, as the Rachni and Krogan before the Genophage. We are an alien species introduced into a ecosystem that has not yet adapted to us, similar to how certain plants and animals have been introduced to different continents on Earth in the past.

Granted, we are equally likely to be in over our heads and getting wiped out as overwhelming our new enviroment, but as I said, these are simply variables that cannot be ignored in honest analysis.

It is implied that humanity's quick success is derived from human adaptability and determination. While not particularly strong or intelligent compared to some of the other species, humans are very innovative- they are able to adapt well to new technology and aren't shy of utilising new battle tactics that they observe other species using. Their drive and determination have led to aggressive colonisation of many worlds in just a few decades. This led to conflict over the Skyllian Verge with the batarians who had been developing the region for centuries (according to the codex).

However, while these traits have been highly beneficial to humanity in the short term, we cannot be certain that they'll retain their usefulness in the long term.

[Bcuz]

OmegaXI wrote...

leonia42 wrote...

armass wrote...

Unrealistic? Definately.

But it's a story with human writers, what do you expect.

I demand the next game be written by non-humans!

 Monkeys writing a video game I'm all for this

Given enough time im sure it's possible

[tonnactus]

SandTrout wrote...

Swimming Ferret wrote...

So yeah, I do think it's fairly unreasonable in the rate humans are rising. A century I could understand; but only a few decades? That's just ridiculous.

Why is it rediculous? Care to counter any of my points?

Salarians have a shorter life then humans and are part of the council too.They should be more innovative then humans if life expectancy plays a role. Another point is that a lot Asari,despite of the possibility to live long, seem to join merc groups in their youth. Not exactly a risk minimizing behavior, dont you think?

[Someone With Mass]

tonnactus wrote...

SandTrout wrote...

Swimming Ferret wrote...

So yeah, I do think it's fairly unreasonable in the rate humans are rising. A century I could understand; but only a few decades? That's just ridiculous.

Why is it rediculous? Care to counter any of my points?

Salarians have a shorter life then humans and are part of the council too.They should be more innovative then humans if life expectancy plays a role. Another point is that a lot Asari,despite of the possibility to live long, seem to join merc groups in their youth. Not exactly a risk minimizing behavior, dont you think?

Not to mention that the turians have had thousands of years to develop their technology in terms of spaceships and such, yet on the first encounter with the humans, who had less than a decade to develop their spaceships, they're on roughly the same level.

[Dean_the_Young]

Ieldra2 wrote...

@OP:
I agree with everything you've said, SandTrout, but my view that humanity's rise to power is implausible is based on a different argument: economic growth, population growth and colonization speed.

Population and colonization:
According to the Codex, humanity has "a dozen settled colonies and a few hundred industrial outposts" about 36 years after discovering the Charon relay. A settled colony appears to be one with about four or five million people, given the planet descriptions of Eden Prime, Bekenstein and others, let's say about 50 million all in all, and let's say another 50 million. Now consider that most of these colonists will be immigrants, since the oldest colonies cannot be more than about one generation old.

Which means that all the colonies together are not more than 1% of the total human population (Earth has 11 billion). For all intents and purposes, humanity does not have significantly more population than a single garden world can support. I do not have such data for the other species, but I think it's a foregone conclusion that after 20 or 40 generations the picture looks very much different for the non-human species, even if they have started out with less, and that humanity does not have the smallest hope of catching up in population with say, the turians or the volus, in any reasonable timeframe, except if controversial reproductive technologies like cloning and tank-breeding are adopted. We have seen no sign of that.

(BTW, I could say that the current state of things is already implausible: imagine constructing a whole mega-city infrastructure like on Bekenstein from basically nothing in only 35 years. But for the sake of the argument, let's assume technology makes it possible)

Economy:
In ME1, the turian councilor spoke of "a few dozen colonies" as if that were a pittance - I have taken this to be the bias of a superpower with many, many colonies. How many colonies must you have to see it that way? For a few dozen, let's say 100, to be a pittance I think it's a reasonable estimation that those 100 will not make up more than 5% of the total, very likely closer to 1% since the loss of 5% of your territory or population will not be seen as insignificant. Which means that the turians will have between 2000 and 10000 colonies. In an unrelated post, I have estimated them at about 7000, with about a tenth of them being "established colony worlds". Then add that after 1500 years (maybe more, the timeline is not clear on that) of colonization the established colonies will be closer in population to Illium (80 million) than to Bekenstein (5 million).

You can see the picture. I think it's an inescapable conclusion that the economies of the Asari Republics (which is said to be the strongest) and the Turian Hierarchy have about a hundreds times the economic output of Earth and its colonies put together. Make humans special and say they have five times the average per-capita productivity due to innovation and you'll still end up with a factor of 20 or so. It's plainly impossible that humanity could've caught up with the non-human economies in only 36 years.

And political power and military strength both require a strong economy. Humanity's rise to a power rivaling the Council species' in only 35 years is ridiculous. They should've added a zero to the time periods between the important events in humanity's timeline after discovery of the Charon Relay.

This, for the most part.

If I ever wanted to make two tweaks in the Mass Effect backstory, it would be these two:

1) A century to develop and colonize in
space.

A trick I'd take is that when the Council forbid opening new
Relays to prevent the next Rachni Wars, they hid the far-ends as well.
So Humanity, at a point 'farther down' the relay chains, has a decent
area of non-contested (or barely contested from other minor species),
Relay-connected space to colonize.

The Relay 314 Incident happens when
Humanity at last finds and unlocks one of these hidden/deactivated
relays, and makes contact with the Council.

2) Humans are a 'fast breeding' race compared to the galactic standard.

Not the utterly insane growth rates of Krogan or Rachni, but a part of the 'sudden surge of relevance/potential strength' is that Humans are capable of relatively-crazy population growth. Which is a matter of culture in a lot of respects, and definitely not a constant, but the theme of a colonization population-upswing making large familes relatively common at the time of ME1 (a birth rate of, oh, five children per family during the Human colonization phase) would be quite remarkable growth compared to the Asari, who from what we know have far fewer over the course of a milloenia. And since the Asari are supposed to be the largest, most populated species despite their life cycle and despite a few thousand years, that implies that most of the galaxy grows at their standard.

Then a questionable part of Asari/Council policy is for 'stable' population growth, to encourage/enforce steady galactic growth as a matter of policy and to avoid repeats of the Krogan/Rachni wars. If most species aren't naturally 'slow breeding', colonization rights could be divied out by population growth. And if we really want to get crazy, a Council-enforced system of genophage-lights to enforce a galactic growth standard (to the Asari standard, by accident of history and power) would provide an interesting quandry and aspect of the Paragon/Renegade delimma in regards to the Council. In a genophage-Council, Humans wouldn't be special, simply an outlier who (for whatever reasons) haven't been genophaged to the galactic standard yet.

[Kaiser Shepard]

Someone With Mass wrote...

SandTrout wrote...
How is it necessarily a lie?

Because the turian fleets alone outnumbers the humans three to one.

Then it is an even fight.

[Leonia]

There should be a dance-off to determine which species should reign supreme.

[ZenJestr]

leonia42 wrote...

There should be a dance-off to determine which species should reign supreme.

Turians win

www.youtube.com/watch

[marshalleck]

didymos1120 wrote...

Why are so many people around here so enamored of genocide?

Because it's an easy emotional trigger to exploit, like all the expedient isms politicians love to invoke. 

[Someone With Mass]

Montezuma IV wrote...

It happens. Doesn't mean it's unreasonable. Maybe humans are better at certain things (most things) then everyother species? 

To the point where they can catch up with over a thousand years of technological advancements in a matter of a decade? Sorry, but I simply don't buy that. That's beyond the lines of human strength and knowledge.

[XyleJKH]

Look the first contact war was a fluke. Had the turians went to war with us, and the council not have stepped in, we would have between blown away. No way we would win

[marshalleck]

Someone With Mass wrote...

 That's beyond the lines of human strength and knowledge.

How do you know? "Human strength and knowledge" has never been tested in such a way in the real world. 

[Beerfish]

One has to be careful to distinguish whole races from exceptional individuals within those races and plain and simple lucky timing.

We don't want to get into dark parts of our own earths past history but certain individuals and movements rose to prominence very very quickly in the grand scheme of things and made massive changes to our world. Also with the advent of better technology we are seeing dramatic change happen even more quickly via improve communication to get 'the message' out.

During a different time period with different leaders, less of an ultimate hero than humanities shepherd and such humans might be grinding away like other races. Humans are accused of being pushy to get to the top but in our own small sections of the world this is often true, the pushy even without a well thought out plan get to the top.

[Someone With Mass]

marshalleck wrote...
How do you know? "Human strength and knowledge" has never been tested in such a way in the real world. 

Then how come no other race in the galaxy made such technological leaps to the point where they might even challenge the Prothean technology, considering that they've had a lot more time on their hands than the humans?

[marshalleck]

Someone With Mass wrote...

marshalleck wrote...
How do you know? "Human strength and knowledge" has never been tested in such a way in the real world. 

Then how come no other race in the galaxy made such technological leaps to the point where they might even challenge the Prothean technology, considering that they've had a lot more time on their hands than the humans?

Because they aren't human, duh. And this isn't even an argument anyways, because you claimed it's beyond human potential, and you invoke aliens as evidence of your claim about intrinsic human potential? You're confused. Take some time and try again.

Modifié par marshalleck, 13 septembre 2011 - 03:33 .

[Someone With Mass]

marshalleck wrote...
Because they aren't human, duh. And this isn't even an argument anyways, because you claimed it's beyond human potential, and you invoke aliens as evidence of your claim about intrinsic human potential? You're confused. Take some time and try again.

Think about it.

It'd be like if we made car hybrids a decade after we discovered that you can use gasoline as a part of a propulsion system.

[marshalleck]

I think you're still not comprehending that you can't justify a statement on "unrealistic" potential of humans with evidence from non-human sources.

[Someone With Mass]

marshalleck wrote...

I think you're still not comprehending that you can't justify a statement on "unrealistic" potential of humans with evidence from non-human sources.

Yeah, yeah, sorry for that. Let's move on.

[eye basher]

Humans aren't special we just don't like being second fiddle to anyone we like being #1 is who we are.

[marshalleck]

eye basher wrote...

Humans aren't special we just don't like being second fiddle to anyone we like being #1 is who we are.

Which should be the correct attitude of any species, not limited to just human, who have an interest in their continued welfare and existence. 

[TobyHasEyes]

marshalleck wrote...

eye basher wrote...

Humans aren't special we just don't like being second fiddle to anyone we like being #1 is who we are.

Which should be the correct attitude of any species, not limited to just human, who have an interest in their continued welfare and existence. 

  using the phrase 'correct attitude of any species'

 Nevermind that continued welfare and existence often isn't achieved by a neverending fight for thee top spot