265 réponses à ce sujet

[sgtrock]

RAF1940 wrote...

Apathy1989 wrote...

It is slightly silly that humanity can go from mass effect engines to running the council in less than 40 years. It should have been at least 80 years - long enough that humanity could have been expanding, but short enough that other races will still be bitter about it.

Humans are very ambitious.

indeed

[RAF1940]

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...
Humanity only rose to the top because Reapers showed up and butchered the council fleet. We didn't earn top spot; everyone else just got knocked down.

But you don't seriously expect the Council races to put too much of their fleets at the Citadel do you?

[RAF1940]

sgtrock wrote...

RAF1940 wrote...

Apathy1989 wrote...

It is slightly silly that humanity can go from mass effect engines to running the council in less than 40 years. It should have been at least 80 years - long enough that humanity could have been expanding, but short enough that other races will still be bitter about it.

Humans are very ambitious.

indeed

Which is why I don't find it unreasonable.

Besides, we're used to being "top dawg". We would rise pretty fast, if only to say "lol stupid volus we is teh bettar than you"

[sgtrock]

RAF1940 wrote...

sgtrock wrote...

RAF1940 wrote...

Apathy1989 wrote...

It is slightly silly that humanity can go from mass effect engines to running the council in less than 40 years. It should have been at least 80 years - long enough that humanity could have been expanding, but short enough that other races will still be bitter about it.

Humans are very ambitious.

indeed

Which is why I don't find it unreasonable.

Besides, we're used to being "top dawg". We would rise pretty fast, if only to say "lol stupid volus we is teh bettar than you"

our ambition and greed will take us very very far. 

[RAF1940]

sgtrock wrote...
our ambition and greed will take us very very far.

My ambition and greed have taken me quite far.

Modifié par RAF1940, 14 septembre 2011 - 12:26 .

[AdmiralCheez]

OP: That was a good read right there with a lot of stuff I never thought of.

And now I'm starting to wonder what the galaxy would look like if certain species found the Citadel first or evolved in complete isolation.

[sgtrock]

RAF1940 wrote...

sgtrock wrote...
our ambition and greed will take us very very far.

My ambition and greed have taken me quite far.

Exactly, now imagine what you would do if you found prothean technology. 

[RAF1940]

sgtrock wrote...

RAF1940 wrote...

sgtrock wrote...
our ambition and greed will take us very very far.

My ambition and greed have taken me quite far.

Exactly, now imagine what you would do if you found prothean technology. 

Thank you, I now have something to fantasize about.

[sgtrock]

RAF1940 wrote...

sgtrock wrote...

RAF1940 wrote...

sgtrock wrote...
our ambition and greed will take us very very far.

My ambition and greed have taken me quite far.

Exactly, now imagine what you would do if you found prothean technology. 

Thank you, I now have something to fantasize about.

your very welcome, of course in fifty years we could be very close to mass effect tech, or at least some of it.

[RAF1940]

sgtrock wrote...

RAF1940 wrote...

sgtrock wrote...

RAF1940 wrote...

sgtrock wrote...
our ambition and greed will take us very very far.

My ambition and greed have taken me quite far.

Exactly, now imagine what you would do if you found prothean technology. 

Thank you, I now have something to fantasize about.

your very welcome, of course in fifty years we could be very close to mass effect tech, or at least some of it.

Maybe. Certainly if I have anything to say about it. Which I probably won't.

[Han Shot First]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...


Who still got humanity a huge shot of goodwill, a seat on the Council, and were willing to work with Cerberus to save a bunch of human colonies... hmmm.

Their espoused beliefs and admitted loyalties and priorities are what make them anti-human whether they want to admit it to themselves or not.

Paragons aren't anti-human. They are pro-common sense.

Seeking advancement while pissing off every other major species in the galaxy is a path that ends with something like the Krogan DMZ. It is better to play the system than to work against it.

Yeah, about that...

Japan was never one of the most powerful nations on Earth in the first half of the century, unless you want to count all the colonial territories as countries. It was a light-weight by most every measure, an opportunistic imperialist who jumped on those weakened by circumstance and distance. Japan was strong relative to other Asian countries, and by virtue that occupied countries in Europe couldn't do much in Asia. But Japan's solution to being bogged down and unable to win in China was to try and attack more powers it couldn't win against.

Japan was recognized as one of the great powers of the time by every other great power on the planet, particularly after it defeated Russia (one of the great powers of the time) in the Russo-Japanese War. Your characterization of it as a lightweight is incorrect.

This was also true at the start of the Second World War when Japan fielded the third largest navy in the world and arguably the world's finest in terms of quality. In the early years of the war the IJN were unequaled night fighters and they fielded the world's best naval aviation in an era when carriers were more decisive than battleships.

Modifié par Han Shot First, 14 septembre 2011 - 04:48 .

[zingro]

Han Shot First wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...


Who still got humanity a huge shot of goodwill, a seat on the Council, and were willing to work with Cerberus to save a bunch of human colonies... hmmm.

Their espoused beliefs and admitted loyalties and priorities are what make them anti-human whether they want to admit it to themselves or not.

Paragons aren't anti-human. They are pro-common sense.

Seeking advancement while pissing off every other major species in the galaxy is a path that ends with something like the Krogan DMZ. It is better to play the system than to work against it.

I agree  

[Kaiser Shepard]

Han Shot First wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...


Who still got humanity a huge shot of goodwill, a seat on the Council, and were willing to work with Cerberus to save a bunch of human colonies... hmmm.

Their espoused beliefs and admitted loyalties and priorities are what make them anti-human whether they want to admit it to themselves or not.

Paragons aren't anti-human. They are pro-common sense.

Seeking advancement while pissing off every other major species in the galaxy is a path that ends with something like the Krogan DMZ. It is better to play the system than to work against it.

"Common sense" is risking the survival of the galaxy by saving the Destiny Ascension, or through setting loose te rachni?

[SandTrout]

Calling all Paragons anti-human does your point no credit, Saphra. I am a Paragon, and one of the most staunch defenders of human advancement on these boards. The fact that the anti-humans typically claim Paragon status is probably more irritating to me than you because they are trying to associate views which I consider repugnant to something that I am associated with, and erroneously at that.

90% of paragon decisions are simply choosing cooperation as the means to the same end as the Renegade's intimidation and use of force. Most paragons on these boards do not fall under the category of anti-human, even though most anti-humans are nominally paragon.

[Dave of Canada]

Han Shot First wrote...

Paragons aren't anti-human. They are pro-common sense.

Most paragon choices? Hell no.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 14 septembre 2011 - 06:12 .

[Han Shot First]

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

Han Shot First wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...


Who still got humanity a huge shot of goodwill, a seat on the Council, and were willing to work with Cerberus to save a bunch of human colonies... hmmm.

Their espoused beliefs and admitted loyalties and priorities are what make them anti-human whether they want to admit it to themselves or not.

Paragons aren't anti-human. They are pro-common sense.

Seeking advancement while pissing off every other major species in the galaxy is a path that ends with something like the Krogan DMZ. It is better to play the system than to work against it.

"Common sense" is risking the survival of the galaxy by saving the Destiny Ascension, or through setting loose te rachni?

The Rachni were victims of Reaper indoctrination. The game practically hits you over the head with that fact in ME1. Pretty much everything the Asari, Krogan, Salarians or Turians say about the Rachni Wars is wrong. They were operating on the assumption that the Rachni were an aggressive, expansionist species that couldn't be reasoned with, when in fact they were just Sovereign's plan A.

As for saving the Destiny Ascension, it makes sense to save the leaders of the galaxy. Heads of state don't perish without there being some instability, and instability is the last thing you need in the midst of a war. Furthermore supplanting an alien council with an all human one is a completely boneheaded move that is sure to end with Earth being reduced to rubble. Humanity doesn't have the power or the resources to keep every other species in the galaxy under its boot.

Modifié par Han Shot First, 14 septembre 2011 - 06:13 .

[SandTrout]

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

"Common sense" is risking the survival of the galaxy by saving the Destiny Ascension, or through setting loose te rachni?

I agree that there are some face-palm worthy paragon choices, saving the DA included, but the same goes for some Renegade choices, like killing the Feros collonists.

[Biotic Sage]

SandTrout wrote...

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

"Common sense" is risking the survival of the galaxy by saving the Destiny Ascension, or through setting loose te rachni?

I agree that there are some face-palm worthy paragon choices, saving the DA included, but the same goes for some Renegade choices, like killing the Feros collonists.

If I remember correctly, didn't Shepard have control of the Citadel when he ordered the fleet to save the Destiny Ascension?  I mean, if Sovereign or Saren had control of the station at that point, I can definitely see the paragon choice as face-palm worthy, but since the immediate threat of the entire Reaper fleet was ended, it made sense to me.  The next pressing issue was getting rid of the attackers, which included both Sovereign and the Geth, so ordering Fifth Fleet to take out some Geth ships and save the DA in the process seemed like the right move to me.  Correct me if I'm missing/forgetting something.

[SandTrout]

Biotic Sage wrote...

If I remember correctly, didn't Shepard have control of the Citadel when he ordered the fleet to save the Destiny Ascension?  I mean, if Sovereign or Saren had control of the station at that point, I can definitely see the paragon choice as face-palm worthy, but since the immediate threat of the entire Reaper fleet was ended, it made sense to me.  The next pressing issue was getting rid of the attackers, which included both Sovereign and the Geth, so ordering Fifth Fleet to take out some Geth ships and save the DA in the process seemed like the right move to me.  Correct me if I'm missing/forgetting something.

The paragon/renegade discussion is rather off-topic, honestly, so I'd like to politely ask that everyone that wishes to discuss the merits of particular Renegade/Paragon decisions to another thread. This topic is alignment neutral, and I'd like to keep it that way. I was hoping that the aside would be brief, but it is threatening a full-scale derailment at this point.

[Kaiser Shepard]

Han Shot First wrote...

The Rachni were victims of Reaper indoctrination. The game practically hits you over the head with that fact in ME1. Pretty much everything the Asari, Krogan, Salarians or Turians say about the Rachni Wars is wrong. They were operating on the assumption that the Rachni were an aggressive, expansionist species that couldn't be reasoned with, when in fact they were just Sovereign's plan A.

Doesn't change the fact their continued survival will inevitable to conflict, as a hivemind species is ultimately incompatible with individualist ones.

As for saving the Destiny Ascension, it makes sense to save the leaders of the galaxy. Heads of state don't perish without there being some instability, and instability is the last thing you need in the midst of a war. Furthermore supplanting an alien council with an all human one is a completely boneheaded move that is sure to end with Earth being reduced to rubble. Humanity doesn't have the power or the resources to keep every other species in the galaxy under its boot.

If Sovereign won, there wouldn't have been a war to begin with.

SandTrout wrote...

I agree that there are some face-palm worthy paragon choices, saving the DA included, but the same goes for some Renegade choices, like killing the Feros collonists.

I can see saving Feros comin back to bite you in the ass, even though I made the same call there...

[Vanaer]

DarthSliver wrote...

Well many Scifi series with Space Travel with Humans and Aliens have done similar things to Humans. I mean look at Star Wars, Humans practically run the galaxy there with Aliens being mostly criminals. Than look at Star Trek, Humans run the scene there. But mine that I think it took 50 years if i remember right to get up on their feet with the Vulcans always trying to hold them back. But this is a common concept done that humans have this Spirit that Aliens dont have like a nature to expand or explore and discover new things.

The point is, that when we think of Space, we always think of ourselves as the new comers and not as the ones that 'were there first'. It always focuses on the idea that humans are way behind, that aliens have far superior technologies and that we have to catch up with them. Catching up always speeds up innovation and growth. The only countries that can make double digit growth figures are those that fall behind in GDP per capita, in many ways this goes for technology as well (as technology and economy are intertwined). You see the same in real life, China's catching up with us (d'oh) and now our political system seems to be 'old' and 'failing' and we need to 'adapt' and 'change'.

Modifié par Vanaer, 14 septembre 2011 - 07:23 .

[TobyHasEyes]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...


I have never gone out of my way to undermine a human advantage just because it was a human advantage. I've only ever done that when not doing so would be directly harmful to the greatest good.

It doesn't matter what your intent is. You are an anti-human actor. Don't make me use a corny comparison. Don't worry, it won't be ... you know who.

 Wow so either you want human dominance, or are anti-human..?

 False dilemma

[SandTrout]

TobyHasEyes wrote...

 Wow so either you want human dominance, or are anti-human..?

 False dilemma

Please make a separate topic for this, or use one of the already existing threads on this theme.

[InvincibleHero]

To answer no it is not. Humanity went by the guidelines established and had the resources and people to meet the goal. All the races not on council you can list the reasons why they are excluded. Volus cannot field their own fleet and the elcor likely lack the resources or numbers to do their fair share and so on. Humanity has the bravado to say we did what is asked now we deserve the council and spectre status. Ability, ambition, and being assertive can result in vast achievement.

[Ieldra]

SandTrout wrote...
Very good point, Ieldra, about the economic expansion being limited. I would, however, attribute at least some of this to population density on Earth, similar to how Britain's population density in the 1600's led to a massive industrial explosion once they reached the New World.

It doesn't really matter where the population density comes from. Even if Earth had double the population the other species had when they started expanding into space, that's insignificant compared to the two orders of magnitude difference you can expect between the asari and turian populations and economies and those of the human sphere of influence.

As Dean-the-Young said: humans are capable of comparably crazy population growth (though not on krogan levels), but that takes time. One generation certainly won't be enough. And to add to that, raising children costs resources that doesn't go into colony development, technology and military during those times. People will be so busy surviving that other aspects of life will take a backseat. Not a good path to power.