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[Undertone]

Really good topic OP - very interesting read. I've also come to expect good input by certain people by now and they never seize to impress me. Bravo.

Similarly in such threads we always have the lack of reason/logic from misanthropists bunching up with their retarded desire of sacrificing Earth and seeing it burn and killing TIM and Miranda coz it's kewl and all the other aliens are omg omnipotent.

[ddv.rsa]

Han Shot First wrote...

As for saving the Destiny Ascension, it makes sense to save the leaders of the galaxy. Heads of state don't perish without there being some instability, and instability is the last thing you need in the midst of a war. Furthermore supplanting an alien council with an all human one is a completely boneheaded move that is sure to end with Earth being reduced to rubble. Humanity doesn't have the power or the resources to keep every other species in the galaxy under its boot.

I let the Ascension burn. Wanna bet 10 bucks that I'll be able to save Earth in ME?

Even with the old Council gone there is room for alliances. The Turians lost their place in the sun, but that doesn't prevent alliances with the Asari, Salarians, Quarians, Geth, etc. With all the homeworlds apparently under attack there are certain to be pragmatic factions willing to deal with Shepard, pro-human or not. Realpolitik.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Biotic Sage wrote...
If I remember correctly, didn't Shepard have control of the Citadel when he ordered the fleet to save the Destiny Ascension?

Temporary. Vigils security protocol corruption file enabled him to buy a bit of time before Sovereign took over.
Exactly how much time is anyones guess, but even Vigil claimed it will be only moments.

Reaper invasion was very much still a threat.

[TobyHasEyes]

ddv.rsa wrote...

Han Shot First wrote...

As for saving the Destiny Ascension, it makes sense to save the leaders of the galaxy. Heads of state don't perish without there being some instability, and instability is the last thing you need in the midst of a war. Furthermore supplanting an alien council with an all human one is a completely boneheaded move that is sure to end with Earth being reduced to rubble. Humanity doesn't have the power or the resources to keep every other species in the galaxy under its boot.

I let the Ascension burn. Wanna bet 10 bucks that I'll be able to save Earth in ME?

Even with the old Council gone there is room for alliances. The Turians lost their place in the sun, but that doesn't prevent alliances with the Asari, Salarians, Quarians, Geth, etc. With all the homeworlds apparently under attack there are certain to be pragmatic factions willing to deal with Shepard, pro-human or not. Realpolitik.

 'Wanna bet 10 bucks that I'll be  able to save Earth in ME?' .. if we allow for that kind of meta-gaming then the only reason you would let the Council die is because you want them to die, as obviously we all know that saving the Council does not result in the Reapers successfully reaching the Citadel

 In game however, that seems to be the very risk you are facing, hence despite my Council admiration and in-game attitude that a unified galazy is important in the galactic struggle I let them die

 Oh and pragmatic factions won't have the strength of a combined and united Council structure

[ddv.rsa]

TobyHasEyes wrote...


 'Wanna bet 10 bucks that I'll be  able to save Earth in ME?' .. if we allow for that kind of meta-gaming then the only reason you would let the Council die is because you want them to die, as obviously we all know that saving the Council does not result in the Reapers successfully reaching the Citadel

 In game however, that seems to be the very risk you are facing, hence despite my Council admiration and in-game attitude that a unified galazy is important in the galactic struggle I let them die

 Oh and pragmatic factions won't have the strength of a combined and united Council structure

Don't talk to me about metagaming. Paragons take wild risks all the time, knowing that because they pick blue it'll always turn out for the best. It's nice to be an idealist when you never have to pay for your ideals.

In game, Shepard is presented with the opportunity to get rid of an arrogant alien dictatorship bent on holding humanity back. Waiting for a shot at Sovereign is also the tactically sound option.

As for a united Council.. maybe, maybe not. I say that government will collapse. The reapers are hitting everyone's homeworlds and the races have to defend themselves. How much attention do you think they're paying to the noisy fools on the Citadel?

[TobyHasEyes]

ddv.rsa wrote...

TobyHasEyes wrote...


 'Wanna bet 10 bucks that I'll be  able to save Earth in ME?' .. if we allow for that kind of meta-gaming then the only reason you would let the Council die is because you want them to die, as obviously we all know that saving the Council does not result in the Reapers successfully reaching the Citadel

 In game however, that seems to be the very risk you are facing, hence despite my Council admiration and in-game attitude that a unified galazy is important in the galactic struggle I let them die

 Oh and pragmatic factions won't have the strength of a combined and united Council structure

Don't talk to me about metagaming. Paragons take wild risks all the time, knowing that because they pick blue it'll always turn out for the best. It's nice to be an idealist when you never have to pay for your ideals.

In game, Shepard is presented with the opportunity to get rid of an arrogant alien dictatorship bent on holding humanity back. Waiting for a shot at Sovereign is also the tactically sound option.

As for a united Council.. maybe, maybe not. I say that government will collapse. The reapers are hitting everyone's homeworlds and the races have to defend themselves. How much attention do you think they're paying to the noisy fools on the Citadel?

 Cool it yeh, I'm not defending every Paragon choice ever, if you notice in my post I actually mention that I let the Council die so as not to take the risk. I was stating that attacking the idea that the Council will be important by reference to meta-gaming isn't convincing one way or the other. Wanna bet ten bucks that no decision from ME1 or ME2 will make it so that we can't stop the Reapers in ME3?

 I understand the idea that, as homeworlds are being attacked, it won't be as simple as the Council deciding to pool resources and here we go. But having a system in place, which for centuries has commanded the joint fleets, has contact with them and from whom those fleets are used to receiving orders, is more to go on than nothing

 Its not a given, but whatever chance they have of contributing anything to proceedings makes them worth keeping (unless of course, saving them might mean Sovereign succeeds as a non-meta-gaming perspective in ME1 could conclude)

 Oh, and if you are gonna attack Paragons as reckless idealists, I'd suggest checking your use of language more, as surely a hardcore pragmatist such as yourself doesn't actually have a huge issue with arrogant dictatorships

[Dave of Canada]

Rambled a bit about the Councils here rather than starting an entirely new thread / post to respond, apologies if I lose sense half way through. Almost 6am. >.>

Edit: I'm dismissing Shepard's choice in the manner, though. So don't really bother bringing that up, just arguing benefits / cons of both Councils.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 14 septembre 2011 - 09:44 .

[ddv.rsa]

TobyHasEyes wrote...

 Oh, and if you are gonna attack Paragons as reckless idealists, I'd suggest checking your use of language more, as surely a hardcore pragmatist such as yourself doesn't actually have a huge issue with arrogant dictatorships

Nope. Just arrogant alien dictatorships.

[TobyHasEyes]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Rambled a bit about the Councils here rather than starting an entirely new thread / post to respond, apologies if I lose sense half way through. Almost 6am. >.>

Edit: I'm dismissing Shepard's choice in the manner, though. So don't really bother bringing that up, just arguing benefits / cons of both Councils.

 It is well done, and you put forward interesting considerations

 I just doubt whether such advanced considerations of consequences and implications are really relevant to the in-game experience. I would be very suprised if such things as Asari's dwarfing the Salarians lifespan granting them greater control is something Bioware have ever considered. As these implications are so un-explicit, I basically don't see why they should influence someone's in-game view of the Council, as those implications appear to be far from how Bioware intended them to be presented and understood

 It is like understanding the Vulcans in Star Trek as sinister overlords who raise up weaker races (suuch as humanity) into their own fold, give them combat duties against other Trek empires etc. (such as Klingon) and allow others to fight as the Vulcan grow stronger; an interesting consideration, but hardly one that should re-evaluate how we understand that universe

[TobyHasEyes]

ddv.rsa wrote...

TobyHasEyes wrote...

 Oh, and if you are gonna attack Paragons as reckless idealists, I'd suggest checking your use of language more, as surely a hardcore pragmatist such as yourself doesn't actually have a huge issue with arrogant dictatorships

Nope. Just arrogant alien dictatorships.

 In which case, why mention their arrogance or dictatorial nature? Because despite being so allegedly pragmatic, you still like to present your choices as the 'right thing to do'

 In any case, the direction our discussion has turned has gone away from judging whether the in-game account of human ascension is believable to why you think Paragons play the game badly

Modifié par TobyHasEyes, 14 septembre 2011 - 09:57 .

[ddv.rsa]

TobyHasEyes wrote...

But having a system in place, which for centuries has commanded the joint fleets, has contact with them and from whom those fleets are used to receiving orders, is more to go on than nothing

Nothing? With renegades all that changes is who sits on the Council. The Citadel Council / galactic government is still very much in existence, if with somewhat less legitimacy. Even the Citadel Fleet still exists.

[TobyHasEyes]

ddv.rsa wrote...

TobyHasEyes wrote...

But having a system in place, which for centuries has commanded the joint fleets, has contact with them and from whom those fleets are used to receiving orders, is more to go on than nothing

Nothing? With renegades all that changes is who sits on the Council. The Citadel Council / galactic government is still very much in existence, if with somewhat less legitimacy. Even the Citadel Fleet still exists.

That isn't all that changes though is it.. ME2 clearly presents the situation as being that most races now view humanity's role in the Council with suspicion, and the support of the Council races ebbs away. Unless I am mistaken I believe that if you save the Council the Asari don't relinquish their involvement in the Citadel fleets..

Modifié par TobyHasEyes, 14 septembre 2011 - 10:00 .

[ddv.rsa]

TobyHasEyes wrote...

 In which case, why mention their arrogance or dictatorial nature? Because despite being so allegedly pragmatic, you still like to present your choices as the 'right thing to do'

The right thing to do is a matter of perspective. I mention their arrogant and dictatorial nature because humanity was suffering as a result of those. For a Shepard loyal to humanity (as opposed to the galaxy) that makes getting of the Council the right thing to do.

[didymos1120]

TobyHasEyes wrote...

That isn't all that changes though is it.. ME2 clearly presents the situation as being that most races now view humanity's role in the Council with suspicion, and the support of the Council races ebbs away. Unless I am mistaken I believe that if you save the Council the Asari don't relinquish their involvement in the Citadel fleets..

Correct. With the Council dead, the asari bow out, and the turians declare their intention to begin producing even more dreadnaughts.

Modifié par didymos1120, 14 septembre 2011 - 10:04 .

[TobyHasEyes]

ddv.rsa wrote...

TobyHasEyes wrote...

 In which case, why mention their arrogance or dictatorial nature? Because despite being so allegedly pragmatic, you still like to present your choices as the 'right thing to do'

The right thing to do is a matter of perspective. I mention their arrogant and dictatorial nature because humanity was suffering as a result of those. For a Shepard loyal to humanity (as opposed to the galaxy) that makes getting of the Council the right thing to do.

 Then I apologise for suggesting you are pragmatic, you simply judge an action as being morally right if it leads to increased human power. That is not so much pragmatic, as a peculiar form of consequentialism; a form with different preferences and end goals to me own form of consequentialism

[ddv.rsa]

TobyHasEyes wrote...

That isn't all that changes though is it.. ME2 clearly presents the situation as being that most races now view humanity's role in the Council with suspicion, and the support of the Council races ebbs away. Unless I am mistaken I believe that if you save the Council the Asari don't relinquish their involvement in the Citadel fleets..

Aliens in ME have always been suspicious and fearful of humans.

[TobyHasEyes]

ddv.rsa wrote...

TobyHasEyes wrote...

That isn't all that changes though is it.. ME2 clearly presents the situation as being that most races now view humanity's role in the Council with suspicion, and the support of the Council races ebbs away. Unless I am mistaken I believe that if you save the Council the Asari don't relinquish their involvement in the Citadel fleets..

Aliens in ME have always been suspicious and fearful of humans.

 And yet before, and with a saved Council ending to ME1, that does not extend to the Council

 If aliens see the Council as having been hijacked by ambitious, selfish humans then they are almost guaranteed not to follow Council direction

[ddv.rsa]

didymos1120 wrote...

Correct. With the Council dead, the asari bow out, and the turians declare their intention to begin producing even more dreadnaughts.

Which is a good thing.

[TobyHasEyes]

ddv.rsa wrote...

didymos1120 wrote...

Correct. With the Council dead, the asari bow out, and the turians declare their intention to begin producing even more dreadnaughts.

Which is a good thing.

 Produce more dreadnaughts.. to make up for the ones the Asari are no longer commiting to the Council. If they are completed in time, that means that they are merely making up the numbers. Obviously we would assume the Asari ones still exist, but that is why the point I was making was that this is indicative of how a 'human-dominated' Council has less authority and loses support as an institution

[ddv.rsa]

TobyHasEyes wrote...

 And yet before, and with a saved Council ending to ME1, that does not extend to the Council

 If aliens see the Council as having been hijacked by ambitious, selfish humans then they are almost guaranteed not to follow Council direction

As at ME2 they seem content to obey new Council.

[didymos1120]

ddv.rsa wrote...

didymos1120 wrote...

Correct. With the Council dead, the asari bow out, and the turians declare their intention to begin producing even more dreadnaughts.

Which is a good thing.

Only if they actually have enough time to build them.  Engineering projects like that aren't particularly noted for being swiftly completed. 

[TobyHasEyes]

ddv.rsa wrote...

TobyHasEyes wrote...

 And yet before, and with a saved Council ending to ME1, that does not extend to the Council

 If aliens see the Council as having been hijacked by ambitious, selfish humans then they are almost guaranteed not to follow Council direction

As at ME2 they seem content to obey new Council.

 With lessened commitment, as exemplified in the 'Asari pullout'.. the commitment being what will be necessary for them to have any commanding role in war situation

[Wulfram]

ddv.rsa wrote...

As at ME2 they seem content to obey new Council.

We don't see any indication of obedience from any of the major powers that I can remember.

[Someone With Mass]

Wulfram wrote...

ddv.rsa wrote...

As at ME2 they seem content to obey new Council.

We don't see any indication of obedience from any of the major powers that I can remember.

Quite the oppostie, really.

The turians aren't obeying the Treaty of Farixen, the asari are pulling out and I'd bet the salarians are cooking up something as usual.

[ddv.rsa]

TobyHasEyes wrote...

 Produce more dreadnaughts.. to make up for the ones the Asari are no longer commiting to the Council. If they are completed in time, that means that they are merely making up the numbers. Obviously we would assume the Asari ones still exist, but that is why the point I was making was that this is indicative of how a 'human-dominated' Council has less authority and loses support as an institution

As long as the dreadnoughts exist, who cares where they're committed at the start of ME? With their homeworlds under attack most races would likely recall their ships anyway. In any case, after a few backroom deals on Thessia I'm sure Shepard could still get those ships.

To address you key point: obviously a coup de'tat government will have less legitimacy than what came before. But does that outweigh the gains humanity has made? Does it make fighting the reapers appreciably harder? Mabye, but I don't think so.