265 réponses à ce sujet

[ddv.rsa]

Wulfram wrote...

ddv.rsa wrote...

As at ME2 they seem content to obey new Council.

We don't see any indication of obedience from any of the major powers that I can remember.

They're all still on the Citadel obeying Council laws. They're still contributing to the Citadel Fleet. Most importantly, no one is doing anything about removing humanity from power. What else do you want as a sign of acceptance?

[TobyHasEyes]

ddv.rsa wrote...

TobyHasEyes wrote...

 Produce more dreadnaughts.. to make up for the ones the Asari are no longer commiting to the Council. If they are completed in time, that means that they are merely making up the numbers. Obviously we would assume the Asari ones still exist, but that is why the point I was making was that this is indicative of how a 'human-dominated' Council has less authority and loses support as an institution

As long as the dreadnoughts exist, who cares where they're committed at the start of ME? With their homeworlds under attack most races would likely recall their ships anyway. In any case, after a few backroom deals on Thessia I'm sure Shepard could still get those ships.

To address you key point: obviously a coup de'tat government will have less legitimacy than what came before. But does that outweigh the gains humanity has made? Does it make fighting the reapers appreciably harder? Mabye, but I don't think so.

 The gains humanity have made are worthless unless the Reapers can be stopped..

 I don't see how having a human-dominated Council can aid humanity in the Reaper invasion; when compared to the alternative of the 'Council saved' situation

[ddv.rsa]

TobyHasEyes wrote...

 I don't see how having a human-dominated Council can aid humanity in the Reaper invasion; when compared to the alternative of the 'Council saved' situation

The key difference between us is that you think the Council will have power in ME3. Human or alien, I don't think anyone will be paying much attention to the Council with their homeworlds under attack.

[Fishy]

Because that what the writer wanted. Do we really need to make a discovery channel out of it?

[TobyHasEyes]

ddv.rsa wrote...

TobyHasEyes wrote...

 I don't see how having a human-dominated Council can aid humanity in the Reaper invasion; when compared to the alternative of the 'Council saved' situation

The key difference between us is that you think the Council will have power in ME3. Human or alien, I don't think anyone will be paying much attention to the Council with their homeworlds under attack.

 Even if we grant your version of events in which the Council isn't given any attention in the Reaper invasion.. then what advantage has humanity gained from their efforts at dominating the Council?

 The only consequence regarding humanity is greater suspicion from other races which seems to result in a gradual 'pullout' where Council races display less (when compared to the alternative) willingness to co-operate

[Someone With Mass]

ddv.rsa wrote...

The key difference between us is that you think the Council will have power in ME3. Human or alien, I don't think anyone will be paying much attention to the Council with their homeworlds under attack.

Yeah, why would people listen to their leaders in a time of war?

[ddv.rsa]

Someone With Mass wrote...
Yeah, why would people listen to their leaders in a time of war?

They will be listening to their leaders.. which is not the Council. The Turian Heirarchy for example is ruled by the Primarchs, not air quotes.

[Someone With Mass]

ddv.rsa wrote...
They will be listening to their leaders.. which is not the Council. The Turian Heirarchy for example is ruled by the Primarchs, not air quotes.

Except it's their job to maintain law and order and to settle disputes among governments.

If the Council is lead by only humans, the other races have no reason to listen to them, as shown with their recent actions.

[Wulfram]

ddv.rsa wrote...

They're all still on the Citadel obeying Council laws.

Not really very significant.  There are americans in France obeying French laws, but that doesn't mean that America obeys France.

They're still contributing to the Citadel Fleet.

IIRC It's clearly stated that negotiations for the Citadel Defence Unit have failed.  I can think of no indications that the citadel fleet is anything more than Alliance forces with perhaps a few volus thrown in.

Most importantly, no one is doing anything about removing humanity from power. What else do you want as a sign of acceptance?

The Turians are building up their fleet.  And Humanity isn't really in power, without the support of the Turians, Asari and Salarians.

[ddv.rsa]

Someone With Mass wrote...

ddv.rsa wrote...
They will be listening to their leaders.. which is not the Council. The Turian Heirarchy for example is ruled by the Primarchs, not air quotes.

Except it's their job to maintain law and order and to settle disputes among governments.

If the Council is lead by only humans, the other races have no reason to listen to them, as shown with their recent actions.

When the repears invade it won't be necessary to settle disputes- there will be more pressing concerns to deal with. If there's an all human Council Shepard may be regarded with suspicion, but I doubt it will prevent him/her from finding allies. The Salarians and Asari in particular have long histories of opportunism and alliances of convenience.

[didymos1120]

ddv.rsa wrote...

They will be listening to their leaders.. which is not the Council. The Turian Heirarchy for example is ruled by the Primarchs, not air quotes.

You know perfectly well that the Council ARE the de facto rulers of Citadel space.

Modifié par didymos1120, 14 septembre 2011 - 10:59 .

[Someone With Mass]

ddv.rsa wrote...
When the repears invade it won't be necessary to settle disputes- there will be more pressing concerns to deal with. If there's an all human Council Shepard may be regarded with suspicion, but I doubt it will prevent him/her from finding allies. The Salarians and Asari in particular have long histories of opportunism and alliances of convenience.

It's the opposite there. It's a more important time to unite nations than ever before, as shown with the genophage.

[ddv.rsa]

@Wulfram:

The negotiations did not fail, they reached an impasse but were still ongoing. It is clearly stated that the Turians maintain a share of defense responsibility.

Next, humanity is 'in power' because it controls the Citadel, a stragetic location of immense military and economic value.

Lastly, the allowing the Turians to violate the Treaty of Farixen is a calculated move.

[ddv.rsa]

Someone With Mass wrote...

It's the opposite there. It's a more important time to unite nations than ever before, as shown with the genophage.

Do you seriously think a renegade Shepard will turn up on Palaven/Thessia/Sur'Kesh and get turned away for being a jerk? Pro-human or not, Shepard to date is the only one to have defeated a Reaper and has the most expertise on them. With their homeworlds under attack, I'm pretty sure Shepard can find leaders willing to make "a deal with the devil".

Rivals uniting to take down a common enemy is nothing new.

Modifié par ddv.rsa, 14 septembre 2011 - 11:13 .

[Someone With Mass]

ddv.rsa wrote...
Lastly, the allowing the Turians to violate the Treaty of Farixen is a calculated move.

Yeah, because they will totally know the exact military power of the turians if there are no safeguards that prevents them from constructing how many ships they want.

The treaty was put in place because of the dreadnoughts' destructive power, and so it could be controlled.

[Wulfram]

ddv.rsa wrote...

@Wulfram:

The negotiations did not fail, they reached an impasse but were still ongoing. It is clearly stated that the Turians maintain a share of defense responsibility.

The Turian share of the Citadel Defence Unit was destroyed.  Without agreement, it would presumably not have been restored.

The whole point of that story is the Asari and Turians cooperating in an attempt to end human control over the Citadel.

[Lotion Soronarr]

ddv.rsa wrote...

Do you seriously think a renegade Shepard will turn up on Palaven/Thessia/Sur'Kesh and get turned away for being a jerk? Pro-human or not, Shepard to date is the only one to have defeated a Reaper and has the most expertise on them. With their homeworlds under attack, I'm pretty sure Shepard can find leaders willing to make "a deal with the devil".

Just FYI - Sheapprd doesn't really have any amazing Reaper expertise. The 5th fleet took out Sovereign, not Sheppard (altough he did help). Waht technical or tactical knowledge does he havethat makes him irrelplacable and a figure to listen to?

I'd rather listen to Hackket. He as an admiral knows feet combat and tactics, and has first-hand experience on fighting a repaer (and not an avatar or slave)

[Lotion Soronarr]

TobyHasEyes wrote...
I don't see how having a human-dominated Council can aid humanity in the Reaper invasion; when compared to the alternative of the 'Council saved' situation

The increased militarization of humans and turians?
I'd say that's good thing.

[TobyHasEyes]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

TobyHasEyes wrote...
I don't see how having a human-dominated Council can aid humanity in the Reaper invasion; when compared to the alternative of the 'Council saved' situation

The increased militarization of humans and turians?
I'd say that's good thing.

 Increased militarization of humans is a consequence of having a human-dominateed Council?

 If we are taking an in-game view, then I would say that provoking races to prepare for war against each other isn't a sound preparation for tackling the Reaper threat.. as in-game there is as much chance that those internal wars will take place before the Reapers arrive, proving to be a costly distraction

Modifié par TobyHasEyes, 14 septembre 2011 - 11:49 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

Tension does not equal conflict. Or do you have some proof the situations was so hot was was inevitable?

[Valdrane78]

Someone With Mass wrote...

Valdrane78 wrote...

Humans have always been a highly adaptive species, so it isn't outside the realm of possibilities that we've adapted quickly to our new surroundings. As far as military power goes, even though we are not as strong as say the turians or asari, we've adopted a guerilla style of combat, swift moving battalions going behind enemy lines destroying command and control stations along with supply lines. We avoid head on combat knowing we would loose.

That all being said, I do think that we adapted a tad too fast, maybe add another 3 decades to the timeline would put us in the proper place. However we have proven to the council races that we can get the job done despite being at a disadvantage.

If you ask me, I think it has always been the opposite. We adapted the surroundings to our preference instead of adapting to it. It's pretty much how and why we built entire cities.

I disagree...
That is adapting, not in the natural way though.......  Our population grew, so we built bigger and bigger buildings to house ourselves in, still our population grew so we expanded into space.  The Drell couldn't do this so now they are an endangered species.  Mordin kinda said it best, "need to hunt make spear", that is adapting.  Humanity has constantly hit obstacles in our way and we have adapted and overcame each one.  If you look at th eother species, they have become stagnate, they are set in their ways which makes it that much harder for them to change, both their thinking and their behavior.

I don't disagree that it happened a little too fast,  several more decades would have made much better sense.  But still we came into this huge cultur and almost thrived, if it had not been for the Reapers, humans would have colonized many more places and have much bigger colonies to boot.  Some of the galaxy may not like us, but they respect us (for the most part) especially if you decided to save the council.

Our ability to adapt to situations is why we were able to get a human spectre in so fast and why we were invited to start an embasy to soon after we made contact.  It is also why we now have a council seat (if you saved the council).  We have accomplished as much as other races an dmuch more than most in th every short time we have become part of the larger galactic civilization.

[TobyHasEyes]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Tension does not equal conflict. Or do you have some proof the situations was so hot was was inevitable?

 So you suggest that a human-dominated Council is preferable because it brings about sufficient tension to lead to a shift from co-operative co-dependence to towards increased military spending, but without any threat of actual conflict?

 Seems like you are aiming for a small sweet spot where the threat of conflict inflates military spending.. but the threat isn't there..

[ddv.rsa]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Just FYI - Sheapprd doesn't really have any amazing Reaper expertise. The 5th fleet took out Sovereign, not Sheppard (altough he did help). Waht technical or tactical knowledge does he havethat makes him irrelplacable and a figure to listen to?

5th Fleet would have been destroyed had Shepard not taken Sovereign's shields offline. No one is irreplaceable, but Shepard has valuable knowledge and experience:

• Shepard knows a Reaper can be destroyed by "stunning it's mind" or boarding and destroying it's core.
• Related to the above, Shepard has been inside a Reaper and knows the layout.
• Shepard has insight into how Reapers are created.
• Shepard has insight into indoctrination.
• Shepard has extensive experience fighting husks and other common Reaper minions.
• Shepard knows that the Reapers have a special interest in humanity.
• If Shepard has the Normandy again, s/he also has EDI and all her info on the Reapers / Cerberus.
• Shepard warned the Council / Alliance about the Reaper invasion, and is now vindicated.
• Shepard's reputation and accomplishments. Given the invasion, people will at least hear him/her out.

Additional speculation:

• The Reapers have a special interest in Shepard, reasons could turn out to be important.
• Shepard was rebuilt, possibly using Reaper tech. We'll see if this is important in ME3.
• Shepard has the Prothean cipher. With the Protheans being important in ME3 this could be significant.

The above may not sound like much, but it is more to go on than most species have.

[marshalleck]

TobyHasEyes wrote...

ddv.rsa wrote...

TobyHasEyes wrote...

 Produce more dreadnaughts.. to make up for the ones the Asari are no longer commiting to the Council. If they are completed in time, that means that they are merely making up the numbers. Obviously we would assume the Asari ones still exist, but that is why the point I was making was that this is indicative of how a 'human-dominated' Council has less authority and loses support as an institution

As long as the dreadnoughts exist, who cares where they're committed at the start of ME? With their homeworlds under attack most races would likely recall their ships anyway. In any case, after a few backroom deals on Thessia I'm sure Shepard could still get those ships.

To address you key point: obviously a coup de'tat government will have less legitimacy than what came before. But does that outweigh the gains humanity has made? Does it make fighting the reapers appreciably harder? Mabye, but I don't think so.

 The gains humanity have made are worthless unless the Reapers can be stopped..

 I don't see how having a human-dominated Council can aid humanity in the Reaper invasion; when compared to the alternative of the 'Council saved' situation

Well of course it's easy to metagame that decision. Bioware handfeed the best outcomes to paragons, especially the Council decision from ME1. If you're only going for "best" result not caring about metagaming the system, you should take paragon choices always.

Modifié par marshalleck, 14 septembre 2011 - 12:21 .

[Kreid]

Humans becoming as powerful as they are in the ME universe in such a short period of time is indeed implausible ( not impossible though as there are many things we don't know) but so are many things within the setting, from extremely anthropomorphic aliens to biotic.

What is importat is that it makes sense in-universe it isn't just "humans are the most awesome sauce ever!" it keeps a (quite precarious) balance between the aliens' inaction and humanity's highly reactive nature so things can remain interesting within a human-centric plot.

Modifié par Creid-X, 14 septembre 2011 - 12:26 .