53 réponses à ce sujet

[Addai]

The Xand wrote...
The longhouse was a ubiquitous design and not synonymous with Germanic tribes. The Celts built them too.

However, there isn't any evidence of early-era longhouses in mainland Scotland as far as I'm aware.  And take the name Haakon, one of the old gods of the hill tribes.  That is a Norse name.

It just makes sense.  If Fereldan ~ Anglo-Saxon England, then we're talking about a mixture of Germanic and Celtic tribes coming together in an emerging sense of being a separate nation.  Not sure why you're so adamant that it's Celtic only.

Modifié par Addai67, 15 septembre 2011 - 09:32 .

[The Xand]

Addai67 wrote...

However, there isn't any evidence of early-era longhouses in mainland Scotland as far as I'm aware.  And take the name Haakon, one of the old gods of the hill tribes.  That is a Norse name.

It just makes sense.  If Fereldan ~ Anglo-Saxon England, then we're talking about a mixture of Germanic and Celtic tribes coming together in an emerging sense of being a separate nation.  Not sure why you're so adamant that it's Celtic only.

There wouldn't be much evidence if the houses were made of wood and because Scotland's so damp. Scots and other Celts did however live in longhouses and since the design was so ubiquitous it can hardly be classified as Norse.

I'm not being adamant, just that we've already seen enough Germanic influence with the essentially Anglo-Saxon Fereldens, and it makes sense that the rebellious, hardy, highland, tribal, neighbouring Avvars are based on Scotland. Besides it would fit with the theme of the game and offer something new.

And since we're being technical it's Hakkon not Haakon and that sounds like any number of made up fantasy names.

Modifié par The Xand, 15 septembre 2011 - 10:13 .

[Addai]

There is evidence of early longhouses in the outer islands- Viking areas. They had stone foundations.

But now I think you're just being a bit ridiculous. Haakon- Hakkon- whatever... that is Norse, dude. The Danes in England were also rebellious, hardy, and tribal, and came into conflict with the Anglo Saxon kings (e.g. St. Brice's Day massacre). I recall the devs saying that Ferelden in general is based on ancient Scotland. But it seems obvious to me that they've reflected the real history of early Briton, i.e. a mixture of peoples.

Modifié par Addai67, 15 septembre 2011 - 10:37 .

[The Xand]

Addai67 wrote...

There is evidence of early longhouses in the outer islands- Viking areas. They had stone foundations.

But now I think you're just being a bit ridiculous. Haakon- Hakkon- whatever... that is Norse, dude. The Danes in England were also rebellious, hardy, and tribal, and came into conflict with the Anglo Saxon kings (e.g. St. Brice's Day massacre). I recall the devs saying that Ferelden in general is based on ancient Scotland. But it seems obvious to me that they've reflected the real history of early Briton, i.e. a mixture of peoples.

Hakkon sounds like any random made up fantasy name and just because it sounds like Haakon doesn't make it automatically Norse. Likely they just chose it because it sounded cool and a little more solid sounding to make the pagan deities of the Avvars sound different from the floaty sounding names of the elves. Korth vs his elven equivalent Elgar'Nan for example.

I honestly can't see the Vikings being the inspiration for the Avvars given that the Avvars are highlanders, tribal, a breakaway rebellious faction sharing a common lineage as the Fereldens yet are the smaller faction and dominated by their seemingly more civilised neighbours. Fairly obviously Scottish (Celtic) influenced.

It also seems to me like the Alamarri were fairly loosely based on the British, given that the Fereldens are obviously based on the dark age English and the Avvars are shaping up to be roughly based on the Scots.

[Addai]

So how do you end up with Anglo Saxon England without any Germanic tribes being present? You agreed the Landsmeet ~ folksmoot. The Germanic influence has to come from somewhere. Ferelden doesn't have any new influx except a few Orlesians.

It's a useless debate, just like people who want to say the Dalish are exactly equivalent to X culture. It doesn't work out that way. But if you're determined they're all Celts, for whatever reason... be my guest.

[The Xand]

Addai67 wrote...

So how do you end up with Anglo Saxon England without any Germanic tribes being present? You agreed the Landsmeet ~ folksmoot. The Germanic influence has to come from somewhere. Ferelden doesn't have any new influx except a few Orlesians.

It's a useless debate, just like people who want to say the Dalish are exactly equivalent to X culture. It doesn't work out that way. But if you're determined they're all Celts, for whatever reason... be my guest.

It's a fantasy game. Just because there's some Germanic influence in the Fereldens doesn't mean that we're going to see any Germanic influence in the other cultures, otherwise it would make the Avvars and Chasinds very boring indeed if they were exactly like the Fereldens. Chalk the difference in design down to Orlesian and Tevinter occupation if you like though.

The Dalish are imo based primarily on Travellers, with strong Celtic design elements and with a lot of Native American themes about them.

Bioware are clearly going down the Warhammer route of taking inspiration from as many sources as possible and weaving them into their own unique world, but even so you can tell where a lot of the primary sources of inspiration came from; Ferelden is Anlgo-Saxon England; Orlesia is feudal France; Tevinter Imperium the Byzantine Empire; Avvars are highland Scots; Dalish are Travellers.

Modifié par The Xand, 16 septembre 2011 - 02:42 .

[Addai]

The Fereldans came out of these tribes. They're the historical descendants of them. It's like saying that modern Britain doesn't have any Celts in them because the kings were Anglo Saxon. There was a mixture.

And, the Dalish are not exclusively Celtic either. Just look at the similarities with Fen'Harel--> Fenrir / Loki

The only Thedas culture that seems to be clearly tied to a RL equivalent is Orlais. Tevinter is a mixture of both Roman and Greek, and even with Tevinter, some weird Norse influences crop up- some fetch quest you have in DA2 is to return a shawl with a Tevinter symbol of the family name- to Mais Dalesdottir.

If you're going to draw one to one parallels in Thedas, you're going to run into trouble. But as I said... have at it, if it suits your fancy.

[The Xand]

Addai67 wrote...

The Fereldans came out of these tribes. They're the historical descendants of them. It's like saying that modern Britain doesn't have any Celts in them because the kings were Anglo Saxon. There was a mixture.

Again, it's a fantasy world. Oh, and of the three British people only one was Germanic, the English. The Welsh and Scots were Celtic.

My guess is that the Alamarri are based on the inhabitants of Britain since the British are divided into 3 people, and looking at the three offshoots of the Alamarri and the map itself it seems clear that the Fereldens are Anglo-Saxon English, the Avvars are based on the Scots and though we don't know much about the Chasinds they inhabit land deemed not worth the hassle taking by the English. Not to mention that the Chasinds and Avvars are seen as primitive tribals by their more civilised and more powerful Ferelden neighbours, though the Fereldens had once shared the same tribal and primitive culture as them.

Addai67 wrote...
And, the Dalish are not exclusively Celtic either. Just look at the similarities with Fen'Harel--> Fenrir / Loki

I did say that there were themes from other cultures, though obviously the primary source of inspiration for them is the Travellers. The Irish accent they gave them only reinforces that, as well as their language which is like Shelta.

Addai67 wrote...
The only Thedas culture that seems to be clearly tied to a RL equivalent is Orlais.

I already stated the other obvious parallels. Tevinter = Byzantine Empire, Ferelden = Anglo-Saxon England, Avvars = Scots, Antiva = Medieval Italy

Addai67 wrote...
Tevinter is a mixture of both Roman and Greek, and even with Tevinter, some weird Norse influences crop up

So...exactly like the Byzantines then?

Modifié par The Xand, 16 septembre 2011 - 04:20 .

[Addai]

The Xand wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

The Fereldans came out of these tribes. They're the historical descendants of them. It's like saying that modern Britain doesn't have any Celts in them because the kings were Anglo Saxon. There was a mixture.

Again, it's a fantasy world. Oh, and of the three British people only one was Germanic, the English. The Welsh and Scots were Celtic.

England was inhabited by numerous Germanic tribes.  Angles, Saxons, Jutes, Danes (a term which generally includes settlers from all the Scandinavian countries).  There were not "three peoples" that made up ancient Briton.

 though the Fereldens had once shared the same tribal and primitive culture as them.

Right- which is my point- the Fereldans are not a separate culture from the tribes they came out of.

So...exactly like the Byzantines then?

How many Byzantines were named Dalesdottir?

Feh.  Whatever.  Believe what you want.  It's all mass speculation anyway.  There's a jumble of influences and none of them are meant to be definitive.

[The Xand]

Addai67 wrote...
England was inhabited by numerous Germanic tribes.  Angles, Saxons, Jutes, Danes (a term which generally includes settlers from all the Scandinavian countries).  There were not "three peoples" that made up ancient Britain.

Aye, and those Germanic settlers became the English, one of the three British people. I also said that the inspiration likely comes from modern Britain, though at one point everyone in Britain was Celtic, and then Germanic settlers came and Britain fragmented into three primary tribes, one of which was Germanic. Much like how the Alamarri were once one, and then fragmented into three peoples, one of which is Germanic themed and the other two held to the old tribal ways.

Addai67 wrote...
Right- which is my point- the Fereldans are not a separate culture from the tribes they came out of.

Indeed not, in much the same way the English are a British people, like the other "tribes", the Scots and Welsh.

Addai67 wrote...
How many Byzantines were named Dalesdottir?

The Byzantines were the remnants of the Roman Empire but centred around Greek speaking lands, and were renowned for making use of Viking mercenaries, for example the Varangian Guard which was made up of Scandinavians and Englishmen. Hence the Greek/Roman influence and Norse runes of the Tevinter Imperium.

It's also worth mentioning that the Byzantine empire was ruled by an emperor but had a scheming body of nobles and senate. We still use "Byzantine" as an adjective for anything particularly sneaky and Machiavellian.

Modifié par The Xand, 16 septembre 2011 - 05:28 .

[Addai]

The Varangians were hirelings- they didn't bring their families or settle in Byzantium. This is a shawl that is supposedly a long-time family heirloom. How many mercenaries carry women's shawls with them?

This is pointless. The devs have said that no one-to-one cultural equivalents can be drawn on Thedas cultures. They use history as loose inspiration. There's no use in trying to draw hard and fast corollaries except to perpetuate pointless forum arguments.

[The Xand]

Addai67 wrote...

The Varangians were hirelings- they
didn't bring their families or settle in Byzantium. This is a shawl
that is supposedly a long-time family heirloom. How many mercenaries
carry women's shawls with them?

This is pointless. The devs have
said that no one-to-one cultural equivalents can be drawn on Thedas
cultures. They use history as loose inspiration. There's no use in
trying to draw hard and fast corollaries except to perpetuate pointless
forum arguments.

Actually the Varangians did settle in Byzantium, to the point that an ethnic group in Byzantium arose around them.

As for the shawl I don't really get what you're driving at. So what if it has a Tevinter symbol of a family name on it, people adopt symbols all the time and if a family lived in Tevinter then they'd obviously want to adopt a Tevinter symbol, regardless of their origin. Given that the Tevinter Imperium once ruled all of Thedas it would obviou.sly have brought people from all over to it, and not necessarily as slaves.

And no, this isn't pointless at all. Many of the nations in Dragon Age have clear cut real world parallels that are fairly obvious. Obviously Bioware didn't just copy and paste them in and often included other sources of inspiration but some are blatantly obvious, ie the Tevinter Imperium being their take on the Byzantine empire, and Ferelden as dark age England. Hell even the Qunari seem to be roughly analogous to the Ottoman Empire.

Modifié par The Xand, 16 septembre 2011 - 05:50 .

[Addai]

The Xand wrote...
Actually the Varangians did settle in Byzantium, to the point that an ethnic group in Byzantium arose around them.

Which ethnic group?

I'm done arguing about how close the historical parallels are in Thedas.  I think you said it yourself when you say the Qunari are "roughly" analogous to the Ottomans.  Emphasis on rough.

[The Xand]

Addai67 wrote...
Which ethnic group?

Varangians

Addai67 wrote...
I'm done arguing about how close the historical parallels are in Thedas.  I think you said it yourself when you say the Qunari are "roughly" analogous to the Ottomans.  Emphasis on rough.

The Qunari are the only ones where you need to look a little deeper to see who they are inspired by though.

[Addai]

Which Anatolian ethnic group, dear heart.

The devs have said the Qunari are loosely based on the Ottomans.

[Carmen_Willow]

The Xand wrote...

Absolutely all of the Dalish bar Merril had distinctive Irish accents unfortunately. I'd really much rather they'd all been Welsh like Merril since it's a lovelier accent, but there you go. Maybe they plan on introducing one of the other races at some point and utilising Welsh accents for them? The Avvars in particular I can see using either Welsh or Scottish accents since they were meant to have quite a Celtic feel to them, but I can't see any DLC for DA2 including them any time soon lol.

Ex-squeeze-me but Irish accents are beautiful as well. I particularly like the accent in traditional Irish folk music. Both accents are lovely.

[Carmen_Willow]

P.S. My Avvars speak welsh (sort of).

[The Xand]

Addai67 wrote...

Which Anatolian ethnic group, dear heart.

The devs have said the Qunari are loosely based on the Ottomans.

Varangian ethnic group. Came about from Varangian guardsmen unsurprisingly boning natives and having kiddiewinkles with them

Carmen_Willow wrote...

Ex-squeeze-me but Irish accents are
beautiful as well. I particularly like the accent in traditional Irish
folk music. Both accents are lovely.

Depends which Irish accent tbqh. Northern Irish sounds rough as **** (too close to Glaswegian), but the Irish accents of Travellers hurts one's ears.

Modifié par The Xand, 17 septembre 2011 - 04:43 .

[Addai]

Dude, I lived in Turkey and have read a good deal about Byzantium. I'm struggling to recall any ethnic group in this part of the world, no matter how small, that considers itself to have Norse roots. I'm not saying Ulf or Toki might not have shacked up with a Greek woman and had some kidlets, but there was no significant Norse settlement- as in Norse families- in this part of the world.  Whatever Varangian mercenaries stayed were absorbed into the Greek population.  If you can provide sources, though, I'd be very interested to see that I'm wrong. And when people speak of "Varangians" as an ethnicity, they're usually talking about Rus, not Byzantium.

Modifié par Addai67, 17 septembre 2011 - 06:28 .

[The Xand]

I never said they were still around today. From wiki:

"The Varangian Guard not only provided security for the Byzantine Emperors, but participated in many wars involving Byzantium and often played a crucial role, since they were usually used at the critical moments of a battle. By the late 13th century Varangians were mostly ethnically assimilated by Byzantines, though the guard operated until at least mid-14th century and in 1400 there were still some people identifying themselves as "Varangians" in Constantinople."

When people talk about Varangians they nearly always mean the Varangians of Byzantium. They were quite famous you know.

Have a song about them,

[Addai]

The wiki also says that they were composed of Norsemen only in the first century or two of their existence. But, I'm willing to concede that the Dalesdottir thing could be a nod to this history. Not all the Thedas stuff makes sense. And as I already said, if you're personally committed to Avvars= Scotsmen... whatever. Obviously others disagree, but that's what fanfiction is for, to make **** up.

[The Xand]

Addai67 wrote...

The wiki also says that they were composed of Norsemen only in the first century or two of their existence. But, I'm willing to concede that the Dalesdottir thing could be a nod to this history. Not all the Thedas stuff makes sense. And as I already said, if you're personally committed to Avvars= Scotsmen... whatever. Obviously others disagree, but that's what fanfiction is for, to make **** up.

Says that after that first century or so it included Englishmen, who were essentially the same as Scandinavians sharing the same Germanic culture and all.

The parallels between the Avvars and the Scots are quite plain and obvious for everyone to see and I've already explained how, but if you're so commited to pretending that all the factions are based on Germanic tribes then w/e.

Modifié par The Xand, 17 septembre 2011 - 06:57 .

[Chuvvy]

I think they're also based off Native Americans, of course you could make the argument that they're based off any nomadic people.

[aries1001]

As a Dane, I must object a bit to the Danes and the Jutes being part of the Germanic tribes. They most certainly were not - they had their own tribes. A theory even suggest than the word Danes originates from the word Danube (the river) and that the Danish tribe actually came from the east (somewhere where current day Russia begins, it seems). Also, the Jutes (as in people from Jutland) could be a tribe called cimbers (don't know what the English word is, though).

The only link between the Danish tribes and the Germanic tribes seem to be that they believed the some god(s), Wotan, Thor, etc. etc. In Denmark this period is called the Viking age from around 750-1050 where the Vikings sailed the world in their longships. And they did get around, from New Foundland in the West to current day Russia in the East as well as the Black Sea to the southeast. So it is indeed possible that they reached modern day Turkey, at least the Bosporus strait (or crossing?)....

The vikings of course also recahed England and Ireland as well as the Orkney and Shetland Island as well Iceland and Faroe Islands and Greenland, of course. Don't know about the Scots, though. And of course also Normandy in France, being so named after the Norse men who lived there. I haven't seen the Dalesdottir story, or quest?, in DA2, though, but I do know that in the Viking age, girls got named after their mother with the mother's name as a lastname+dottir after it. So if Anne had a girl, her last name would be Annesdottir (the daughter of Anne).

Come to think of it, I also seem to remember af wandering tribe called vandals.....

Another group that travels, because they must, is of course the gypsies, today called Romani or Travellers/Wanderers. Much like the Dalish elves, they are eternally on the run, because no-one will have them stay a long time, or even permanent, in one place. Much like the Romani they are forced to travel, probably recalling a time of past gloriousness telling stories about how life was in the ancient elven empire before the fall of Arlathan. Native Americans could also be an inspiration for the Dalish, of course.
I'm not sure they're based off the Masai people in Africa of the arabic nomadic tribes, though.

The Dalish have waggons, caravels, much like the Romani has (or did have) so this would suggest the Romani being a source of inspiration here. City Elves, hower, living in the city alienages - the inspiration here probably comes from both the tragic fate of the hebrews as well as the tragic fate of the Native Americans.

As for the Quanari being loosely based on the Ottoman empire, this is partly true; I remeber Gaider (and some other devs) saying that the philosophy of the Qun are inspired in part by some buddhist teachings, some ancient chinese teachings, particularly Konfutse as well as some ideas from the Ottoman Empire.
[It makes sense, too, as the Qunari does seem to have discovered gunpowder much like Chinese had...]

[Addai]

The Scandinavian peoples are considered Germanic, linguistically speaking. They distinguished themselves eventually, at least by the time of the Holy Roman Empire. Sorry if the lumping offends you. I think that's a little silly, myself. These designations are fairly fluid. No one can even agree what the term "Viking" should refer to.  "Celtic" is also a fairly meaningless term.

There was little Viking settlement in mainland Scotland, but permanent settlement in Orkney, Shetland and the Hebrides. Those areas have heavy Viking ancestry, almost none in the interior of Scotland. Northumbria and Yorkshire, large Viking influence. There was also limited Viking settlement in Ireland and much more in Iceland.

Naturally they reached Turkey. That wasn't what we were discussing- it was whether there was permanent settlement in Byzantium. They were there as traders and mercenaries. You can see runic graffiti in Hagia Sophia in Istanbul. There was Viking incursion all along the Baltic, Volga, and Black Sea. Even very early, there was sea trade all up the Atlantic seaboard from the Med to northern Europe. The Vikings really weren't new in that.

Modifié par Addai67, 17 septembre 2011 - 11:04 .