78 réponses à ce sujet

[Sith Grey Warden]

It's obviously the Dwarven religion. We know our ancestors existed. We have historical records of them being in Thedas. The only other religion that can say that is the ancient Trevinter religion, but their Old Gods hold no power in death. Our Ancestors return to the stone and help keep Orzammar and Kal Sharok strong against the Darkspawn threat. The others cannot claim such truth.

As mentioned before, the Qun is a philosophy, not a religion.

[dragonflight288]

Venerate the ancestors everyone. For in trying to be all that they have been in the world, we may become as they. They were the greatest of us, and guide us even now. By the Stone, why isn't Andraste a paragon?

[The dead fish]

Sith Grey Warden wrote...
As mentioned before, the Qun is a philosophy, not a religion.

And as mentioned before, that's totally false, the Qun is the opposite of  philosophy and acts as a religion.

Philosophy = love of wisdom, It is a questioning, interpretation and reflection on the world and human existence, or as a systematic knowledge. Different goals can be attributed, the search for truth, and meditation, as the meaning of life, and happiness, but it is more widely in the course of systematic thought and reflection.

Qun is more similar to the concepts of totalitarianism ( Fascism ) in the 1930s than philosophy.

Modifié par Sylvianus, 14 septembre 2011 - 09:36 .

[Drone696]

 ^ Ouch!

[whykikyouwhy]

Sylvianus wrote...

Sith Grey Warden wrote...
As mentioned before, the Qun is a philosophy, not a religion.

And as mentioned before, that's totally false, the Qun is the opposite of  philosophy and acts as a religion.

Philosophy = love of wisdom, It is a questioning, interpretation and reflection on the world and human existence, or as a systematic knowledge. Different goals can be attributed, the search for truth, and meditation, as the meaning of life, and happiness, but it is more widely in the course of systematic thought and reflection.

Qun is more similar to the concepts of totalitarianism ( Fascism ) in the 1930s than philosophy.

I'm no expert in matters of the Qun, but from a definition standpoint, can't you say that a philosphy is also "a system of values by which one lives" or "any system of belief, values, or tenets?" I think the Qun aligns best with the former, so if that isn't a "philosophy," maybe there's a better word to capture that?

[The dead fish]

whykikyouwhy wrote...

Sylvianus wrote...

Sith Grey Warden wrote...
As mentioned before, the Qun is a philosophy, not a religion.

And as mentioned before, that's totally false, the Qun is the opposite of  philosophy and acts as a religion.

Philosophy = love of wisdom, It is a questioning, interpretation and reflection on the world and human existence, or as a systematic knowledge. Different goals can be attributed, the search for truth, and meditation, as the meaning of life, and happiness, but it is more widely in the course of systematic thought and reflection.

Qun is more similar to the concepts of totalitarianism ( Fascism ) in the 1930s than philosophy.

I'm no expert in matters of the Qun, but from a definition standpoint, can't you say that a philosphy is also "a system of values by which one lives" or "any system of belief, values, or tenets?" I think the Qun aligns best with the former, so if that isn't a "philosophy," maybe there's a better word to capture that?

I don't know, maybe. There is surely a better word, because it is not suitable at all for me. Otherwise, we would say that fascism is a Philosophy because it was a way of life and value, any system of belief or tenets ?  And of course, fascism is the opposite of philosophy. Philosophy must question everything in society, reflect on the issues, and most importantly, basing his thinking on logic and reason. Contrary to religion and the concepts of totalitarianism.

So the qun : Culture of discipline without question the beliefs, always obey orders.

- Indoctrination from birth, spiritual rejection of Qunari and threat to their lives if they reject the will of Qun or do not meet the expectations of qun  . All will have to meet a superior will, Qun.

- To respond to what they call the chaos, a leader, one people, one will.

- Destruction of individualism, individual freedom and individual thought.

Modifié par Sylvianus, 14 septembre 2011 - 10:06 .

[Zanallen]

The Qun is a school of thought dealing with ethical and sociopolitical teaching. Much like Confucianism. That is what makes it more of a philosophy than a religion despite what the literal definition of philosophy may be. The Qun is a way of life.

[Zanallen]

whykikyouwhy wrote...

I'm no expert in matters of the Qun, but from a definition standpoint, can't you say that a philosphy is also "a system of values by which one lives" or "any system of belief, values, or tenets?" I think the Qun aligns best with the former, so if that isn't a "philosophy," maybe there's a better word to capture that?

Ideology might be a closer term, I suppose. Though still not perfect.

[whykikyouwhy]

Zanallen wrote...

whykikyouwhy wrote...

I'm no expert in matters of the Qun, but from a definition standpoint, can't you say that a philosphy is also "a system of values by which one lives" or "any system of belief, values, or tenets?" I think the Qun aligns best with the former, so if that isn't a "philosophy," maybe there's a better word to capture that?

Ideology might be a closer term, I suppose. Though still not perfect.

Idealogy works, but I think Sylvianus may have provided a solid word for it, bolded below:

Sylvianus wrote...

So the qun : Culture of discipline without question the beliefs, always obey orders.

Maybe the Qun is more akin to a culture (within the culture that is/of the Kossith, I guess).

Of course, this would be irrelevant if people would just recognize the existence of the Almighty Cheese Wheel.

[The dead fish]

Zanallen wrote...

The Qun is a school of thought dealing with ethical and sociopolitical teaching. Much like Confucianism. That is what makes it more of a philosophy than a religion despite what the literal definition of philosophy may be. The Qun is a way of life.

 why Buddhism is seen as a religion? It's more a way of life though. No god, no divine nature, mostly precepts of life, questions, lifestyle, and what to do.

religion is not necessarily believe in a god or divine nature. For some, all this is a kind of fantasy, a cultural legacy of irrational beliefs. ( if I loose my sword, my soul is lost as the qun said )  it is a truth, lived in the interior of a man, in a deep and sincere faith, what I think that's the case for many qunari.

they do not think necessarily with logic, they try to make sense of their lives with something spiritual, more than a desire to simply live in community in a healthy way. They believe that nature has certain rules they must follow through beliefs and interpretations given by their kind of priests.

And for me the desire to convert other peoples (absolute refusal of the understanding of other cultures) show that it acts much like a religion. We see they have no desire for political power in Thedas, or human ambitions, or other, they meet a spiritual longing, a spiritual belief to me.

Modifié par Sylvianus, 14 septembre 2011 - 10:32 .

[The dead fish]

whykikyouwhy wrote...

Zanallen wrote...

whykikyouwhy wrote...

I'm no expert in matters of the Qun, but from a definition standpoint, can't you say that a philosphy is also "a system of values by which one lives" or "any system of belief, values, or tenets?" I think the Qun aligns best with the former, so if that isn't a "philosophy," maybe there's a better word to capture that?

Ideology might be a closer term, I suppose. Though still not perfect.

Idealogy works, but I think Sylvianus may have provided a solid word for it, bolded below:

Sylvianus wrote...

So the qun : Culture of discipline without question the beliefs, always obey orders.

Maybe the Qun is more akin to a culture (within the culture that is/of the Kossith, I guess).

Of course, this would be irrelevant if people would just recognize the existence of the Almighty Cheese Wheel.

Yes  culture seems good to me.  ( ideology too )

Modifié par Sylvianus, 14 septembre 2011 - 10:33 .

[Teddie Sage]

None of them.

[Zanallen]

The real answer is that, other than maybe the developers, no one knows the answer to this question. We know that the darkspawn were created somehow. We know the Fade exists and is somehow connected to the real world. We know that magic is somehow connected to the Fade. We know that a black city exists within the Fade. We know that there are massive dragons slumbering underground. Anything beyond that is just supposition without confirmation in game or from the developers.

[Loyal Tevinter]

I would love to learn more about the imperial chantry. I'm hoping it will be included in DA 3 or maybe a future DLC. The Alter of Dumat makes me want to know more about Old God worship as well.

Modifié par demonwolf83, 15 septembre 2011 - 12:51 .

[LadyJaneGrey]

demonwolf83 wrote...

I would love to learn more about the imperial chantry. I'm hoping it will be included in DA 3 or maybe a future DLC. The Alter of Dumat makes me want to know more about Old God worship as well.

Seconded.  When the altar actually worked, it felt pretty ominous.  Supposedly the Grey Wardens took care of that particular god.  If Dumat's properly defeated, who or what is still answering that altar? 

[ScotGaymer]

These threads make me laugh.

The way people go on about religion and "the truth" in the game - makes me laugh.

Religion in DA is presented in the same way it is in the Real World which is why we get all the Chantry = Catholic Church statements from people who are clearly idiots who I enjoy pointing and laughing at.
Fortunately the way religion is presented, it is presented in a fairly neutral manner. It isnt shoved down your throat like in Forgotten Realms games (the whole thing with Atheists being trapped in the Wall of the Faithless when they die until it consumes them and they are gone forever is fairly disconcerting).
I don't wish to start an arguement here but religion isnt true in the real world, and the way it is presented in DA it isnt true there either.

What I mean by this is historically religion (or more specifically organised religion) was an attempt by people at first to explain the world/universe around themselves in a way that made sense to them; and later it became a way of setting down rules of conduct and governance in a time when the rule of law was weak or nonexistant.
There is very little "truth" or "rightness" in any of it - it is why I converted to the more spiritual buddist "faith" because its less about truth and rightness and more about ones own self and ones own place in the universe.

Please note I am not attacking religion; I am just pointing out the futility of arguements about religious "truth". These sorts of questions are not really applicable anymore in real life, never mind in a game like Dragon Age.

The Chantry has their way of explaning the universe, the Dalish have their way, the Black Chantry has a different way, and the Qunari have a different way again. Does any one school of thought have to be any more right or true than the others?
Most likely none of them are really "true"; and instead are the people's "best guess" based on "what they know" just like early religions in real life were.

[whykikyouwhy]

FitScotGaymer wrote...

These threads make me laugh.

The way people go on about religion and "the truth" in the game - makes me laugh.

Religion in DA is presented in the same way it is in the Real World which is why we get all the Chantry = Catholic Church statements from people who are clearly idiots who I enjoy pointing and laughing at.
Fortunately the way religion is presented, it is presented in a fairly neutral manner. It isnt shoved down your throat like in Forgotten Realms games (the whole thing with Atheists being trapped in the Wall of the Faithless when they die until it consumes them and they are gone forever is fairly disconcerting).
I don't wish to start an arguement here but religion isnt true in the real world, and the way it is presented in DA it isnt true there either.

What I mean by this is historically religion (or more specifically organised religion) was an attempt by people at first to explain the world/universe around themselves in a way that made sense to them; and later it became a way of setting down rules of conduct and governance in a time when the rule of law was weak or nonexistant.
There is very little "truth" or "rightness" in any of it - it is why I converted to the more spiritual buddist "faith" because its less about truth and rightness and more about ones own self and ones own place in the universe.

Please note I am not attacking religion; I am just pointing out the futility of arguements about religious "truth". These sorts of questions are not really applicable anymore in real life, never mind in a game like Dragon Age.

The Chantry has their way of explaning the universe, the Dalish have their way, the Black Chantry has a different way, and the Qunari have a different way again. Does any one school of thought have to be any more right or true than the others?
Most likely none of them are really "true"; and instead are the people's "best guess" based on "what they know" just like early religions in real life were.

While you make several valid points, wouldn't it be feasible, in a fantasy world where magic exists, where mortals can tap into energies to cast spells, where demons and spirits move freely about, that "gods" (or at least very, very powerful beings that may or may not have some creator-type powers) could exist?

Organized religion is one way to look at it, yes. And one area to make the comparison with RL. But when you look beyond those parallels, you have two completely different worlds, at least as far as control over the physical and spiritual realms are exercised. Hence, it could be possible that in the DA-verse, there are such things as "god"-beings. (And hence, this thread and others were created...) I see it less about discussing if gods can exist, and more about since the"if" is possible (in a world of if's that are reality), then which one(s).

[ScotGaymer]

Ah but you are making the assumption that I am declaring that God doesnt exist IRL as well as saying any Gods in DA dont exist.

I am not saying that.

I am merely pointing out that none of the existing religions are presented as being "right" in the same way as religion in The Forgotten Realms is presented (by necessity granted) as right.

They are presented as having their own point of view, their own take on things. That doesnt necessarily make them right; it just makes it what the people who follow those religions in the game world find the most sensible to them.

For all we know in game it might ALL be true.

Personally I reckon that the Maker is Fen'Harel who tricked the Creator Gods and Forgotten Ones into leaving Thedas and assumed the mantle of worship as the Maker. Thus no matter who prays all the power from such faith goes to him.

lol.

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

casamar wrote...

No love for the Imperial Chantry?

We don't know enough about them.

But I do agree with their alleged view that "Magic was made to serve man, never to rule over him" does not mean that the Maker is against mages being in positions of authority -- so long as magic is not being used to force man, but to benefit him.

Unfortunately, the DA codices make it sound like the Imperial Chantry is incredibly tied up with Tevinter politics (the Imperial Divine is not only a mage, but the Grand Enchanter), and I think we have yet to meet someone out of the Imperium who hasn't been a blood mage, worked for one, or been touched by malicious blood magic in some way (except possibly Alarith in Origins).

It'd be nice to see some Tevinters who aren't power-hungry blood mages or former slaves, but so far the country and its people aren't painted as being very three dimensional (Edit: Not that Tevinter has been the focus of a game or anything, but considering the DA2 themes...).

Modifié par Shadow of Light Dragon, 16 septembre 2011 - 12:31 .

[naledgeborn]

FitScotGaymer wrote...

Ah but you are making the assumption that I am declaring that God doesnt exist IRL as well as saying any Gods in DA dont exist.

I am not saying that.

I am merely pointing out that none of the existing religions are presented as being "right" in the same way as religion in The Forgotten Realms is presented (by necessity granted) as right.

They are presented as having their own point of view, their own take on things. That doesnt necessarily make them right; it just makes it what the people who follow those religions in the game world find the most sensible to them.

For all we know in game it might ALL be true.

Personally I reckon that the Maker is Fen'Harel who tricked the Creator Gods and Forgotten Ones into leaving Thedas and assumed the mantle of worship as the Maker. Thus no matter who prays all the power from such faith goes to him.

lol.

I get it. There is no "right" religion in Thedas. In fact everybody in the thread probably gets it. Who's laughing now? 

I said the Qun for the same reason other people picked the Chant, or the Elvhan, or the Stone... because it sounds cool and it's the one they liked the most.

Modifié par naledgeborn, 16 septembre 2011 - 12:02 .

[Big I]

From a lore perspective:


The Qun seems not to concern itself with higher powers or life after death. As has been pointed out it is more a philosophy for how to structure society.


The old gods (Urthemiel, Dumat etc) are real. They are the only known example of male high dragons, the ones still alive have been sleeping for over a thousand years under the ground (who knows how they got there in the first place), and they have some sort of mental connection to the darkspawn. If tainted they can resurrect themselves from darkspawn bodies unless killed by a Warden. Whether any of that means they have a divine origin or are responsible for anything they're supposed to have done (given blood magic to the magisters, established religions in their name) is unknown.


Dragon cults worship real things, female high dragons. These cults spring up independently of each other, and cultists have a symbiotic relationship with the dragon (they look after it's offspring/do what it wants and it gives them it's blood.) This suggests that dragons are intelligent, and seek to engender worship in humans.


Dwarven ancestor worship is more like the qun than anything else, except that it deals with matters of afterlife. The example of Paragons and ancestors is followed because that is seen as the moral way to live ones life. Dwarven belief that the Ancestors dwell within the Stone has precedent. DA:O, DA:A and DA2 show that spirits persist within the Stone (The rock wraith and the profane in DA2, Kal Hirol in DA:A, and the gangue shade in the Dead Trenches).


Avvar polytheism seems to be largely defunct, and apart from a few names of deities (e.g. Mountain Father) we don't know much about it.


Dalish polytheism seems largely concerned with the worship of absentee deities. Their story of how the gods and their enemies were tricked by Fen'Harel is interesting because of the parallels with the old gods (i.e. the enemies of the elven gods are imprisoned beneath the world).


The Chantry and Imperial Chantry follow the Chant of Light, which is attributed to Andraste. Andraste was indisputably a real person who conquered the south of Thedas. According to the one of the spirits of the Gauntlet her mother had a prophetic vision of her life during childbirth. According to the Canticle of Maferath, one of the Chant of Ligth's Dissonant Verses, Maferath received a vision of her in a dream where she forgave him and told him his betrayal was part of the Maker's plan. According to Eleni Zinovia (talking statue that sees the future in Kinloch Hold) one day the Maker will return to "light their fires again." Whether any of that means that the Maker is real, or that Andraste ever thought he was real, or that she said the things in the Chant they say she did, is up for debate. The Chant of Light is at least suspect in it's portrayal of the magister expedition to the Black City if Corypheus is to be believed.

Modifié par LookingGlass93, 16 septembre 2011 - 05:30 .

[bEVEsthda]

The magic, demons and deities that clearly exist in the DA game, don't need any religion.
The religions are blasphemous. Any existing or non-existing gods don't need them. The priests need them. The purpose of the religion is to put one person or some persons in the place of a god. To make their words to seem as if coming from a god. To make lies into 'truth' by claim of speaking for a god. This religion is a political instrument. To control people. To justify power, persecution and privileges.

So, there is no 'true' religion in the game.  (...either .)

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

bEVEsthda wrote...

The magic, demons and deities that clearly exist in the DA game, don't need any religion.
The religions are blasphemous. Any existing or non-existing gods don't need them. The priests need them. The purpose of the religion is to put one person or some persons in the place of a god. To make their words to seem as if coming from a god. To make lies into 'truth' by claim of speaking for a god. This religion is a political instrument. To control people. To justify power, persecution and privileges.

So, there is no 'true' religion in the game.  (...either .)

Which deities 'clearly exist' in Dragon Age?

[Vilegrim]

casamar wrote...

No love for the Imperial Chantry?

splitting hairs... if the chantry is correct (the maker et al.) then you can get down to which version is correct....

[Sith Grey Warden]

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...


Which deities 'clearly exist' in Dragon Age?

The Old Gods. And our Ancestors, who strengthen us all when they return to the stone.