20 réponses à ce sujet

[sib7]

I see this skill as very pointless. It should be a game option not an actual skill to develope your charecxtor. Any one else think this? All it is is configurable AI. This game being what it is. pause and play, why is thisa needed? The skill tres are very disapointingly shallow as it is, the last thing we need are pointless skills.

[PatT2]

No. disagree completely.

[Devilsway]

It's nice not having to pause and play every battle and cycle through every character all the time. For example set your mage to cast horror on the first warrior class mob in range without having to pause and play to do it is nice. Also if you want to have NPC change weapon sets under certain scenerios and keep them that way you need to have your basic tactics at least set. If you want them to stay at range or run out of deathclouds or blizzards without having to select them it also saves from having to move them yourself.

[sib7]

So this is a good use of skill points? This wouldn't have been better as just a game option you could turn on and off?

[Drider-man]

Tactics are awesome. You can certainly ignore them if you want and do EVERYTHING by yourself, but setting up some basic AI if/when parameters for your NPCs really works for me. Then I can focus on playing MY character and not handwalking a party of morons through every encounter.
If nothing else, I suggest you use a tactic slot or two on if/when heal for your designated healer.

Also, I think it gives an interesting skill choice, as if you neglect it you can be more powerful in other areas, at the cost of tactics or vice versa

Modifié par Drider-man, 22 novembre 2009 - 01:58 .

[jpem]

the game gets very hard if you dont use them

[sib7]

I hope that I can find them use full, but to put it in the skill tree I think was a bad move.

[JeffNichols]

I actually like it. It's a trade-off.



I installed a mod to get 25 additional tactics, and it felt a bit cheap.



I think the trade-off should be to remove the cunning requirement from tactics, and to make each slot spent open up 3 or 4 slots rather than Still make it a trade-off, but not a huge one.

[-XM-]

Just download the mod with 25 tactics slots, or modify the files yourself (Georg Zeller posted a comprehensive tutorial on the Missing Manual). Then download the mod to respec all the skill points you wasted in that tree.



Yes it's bad design to have it as a skill rather than just a game option, but that's why these days you should not buy any games that are not moddable (or you know are going to be well designed). Since this game is moddable, just fix it yourself or download the fix people have already made.

[metatrans]

the usefulness of tactics depends entirely on your character build.



if your character doesn't have many options than you don't need many tactics. a Dual Wield Warrior for example can get by with only 1 tactic really (run up to a guy and hit him).



a mage with lots of buffing and support spells can easily use 12 tactic slots and still want more. your various buffs and debuffs are situational and conditional and you can define some pretty specific tactics that make them work well. for example IF: ally attacked by range -> THEN: cast Heroic Aura on ally.



basically the tactics skill is just a character option and its value varies based on which character its on. don't use it if you don't need it. no point in complaining about it though. its very important for some characters.

[PatT2]

The tactics are far more useful than the last post suggests. You can make your dps party member protect your healer. You can make your healer keep your tank buffed. You can make your rogue attack whoever you are attacking. You can do so many things its absolutely amazing. You can make different characters attack folks based on armor rating. Or enemy level. Or who else is attacking them.



I'll say it again. You can do it all manually. But, tactics are like the ABS on your car. You can switch once per second. Your ABS system can do order of magnitude that many, and in combo with a traction control system, can do it all before you even realize you need to. You cannot, I repeat, you physically and mentally, simply cannot do as many things as fast as your processor. That's why abs are better than manually pumping your brakes on your car (I live in snow/ice country. I know what I'm talking about). Tactics are the same thing for your allies and your character.

[Spyndel]

I think Tactics would be more useful for the console version of the game, where managing your party is slightly more of a pain. For the PC version of the game, even if they *are* useful for people that don't want to micromanage as much, I have not found that the normal amount of slots you get over the course of the characters life is at all lacking for this purpose, enough to warrant investing skill points in. I have plenty for what I *need* my characters to do, and some slots just go unused because I never bother getting around to them.  It would be one thing if we *only* got slots from the skill, but we get plenty without it.

Modifié par Spyndel, 22 novembre 2009 - 03:01 .

[Suron]

while I wouldn't call it lazy it IS stupid to have it a "skill" you have to purchase....they should have just fleshed out skills differently..there is NO justification for this being a skill...it ONLY could if you could NOT control your companions...and even that is dodgy...



it should be a feature you can turn on/off...not a skillset you purchase like herbalism

[Lord Phoebus]

It's pretty useless, you get enough slots without the investment for basic tactics and you'll want to handle the complex stuff yourself. Besides, warriors are the only class it's worth setting them up for. You can't set tactics to flank, so you'll want to direct the rogues and spells need that personal touch because of friendly fire. I suppose it's handy for setting interrupts e.g. (if target is casting spell, then shield bash) but for anything else just tell your party members to handle it yourself.



As long as you can micromanage, it's useless. The only reason it's there is that RTWP sucks for controling a party, and this avoids some of the pausing every two seconds for the filler fights.

[asaiasai]

Not every character will need to use all the tactic slots you can skill them up to i find that for my party i need no more than 5 or 6 total for most of the party, and one of those slots is designated to health pot usage. The nice thing about the tactics management that i think you are missing is that the system is completely flexible and YOU decide how much or how little you want to rely on the AI. Some people like to micromanage the fight some do not, the tactical system in the game provides the option to do both and that is IMHO a far better design than the one size fits all approach. For me i do not think it gives me enough options or i have not figured out how to set it up propperly, but the AI if set up with a bit of planning can be almost better than some human WoW players i have played with, and most important less attitude.  Where i notice it is when i want to use 2 mages working in cinc to hammer a large gorup of enemies with an AoE spell stack. For example, paralyze, blizzard and tempest all stacked in one spot, so far I have to micromanage that, but for the most part the rest of the simpler things, tank and spank which incedentaly is the most commonly used route, the AI set up is very effective.

Play around with it if your still unsure or it does not work as you want i will post my settings for a few of the characters i use frequently to give you an idea of a sucessful or happy AI user.

Asai

[Sornin]

The tactics system should have simply given you a generous number of tactics slots without the need to invest in a skill. It is a game mechanic, not actual content, so wasting skill points on it seems silly.



Besides, no matter how well I set my tactics, I tend to go back to pausing and issuing single orders simply because no tactics setup can ever come close to being as adaptive and smart as a player.

[Hatem]

I actually found it to be quite useful when I have Wynne in my party. Aside from healing, she is also in charge of some debuffs like weakness and buffs like heroic aura/defense/offense. If I recall it correctly I use all but 3 tactic slots, with Tactics talent maxed out, obviously. However, its quite useless for everybody else.

[Whosi]

I doubt the tactics skill was meant to be used in difficult fights, though I do find I leave it on at least one NPC most of the time.  It's a time saver in easier fights and the default slots you get as you level up should be enough for people who don't want to mess with putting points in the skill. I'm glad they included it and I doubt they would have implemented another skill in it's place, i see it as more of a bonus for people who like to mess with it.

Modifié par Whosi, 22 novembre 2009 - 05:06 .

[Indy.of.Como]

As a programmer, no, I find Tactics terribly useful. That's 1/4 of the fun, trying to perfect your scripting. Guess you didn't play Carnage Heart on the PS1, eh?     My goal is to have all my allies playing just as if I had control of them, while I play my main.
As for including it in the skill tree, I'm not sure if I like that. Many times I have wanted to take other skills like traps or coerce, but chosen tactics instead to add more options to my scripting.

Tactics could have been made much better if it had included movement commands, such as getting in flanking position, maintain a distance from all enemies, never get more than x feet from nearest ally, etc. If NPCs have the AI to get into flank, they could have given it to us too. Another option which would have been nice is not restricting actions based on ally/self-enemy condition checks. CoX knows the difference, I don't know about FFXII; in CoX if you are a healer, you can remain selected on an enemy, attacking it, and your heal/support powers automatically go to the target of the enemy. And it works in reverse--target your ally, and attacks go to your ally's target(assuming it's an enemy.) This would have allowed us to set up things like on a fighter:
Ally: Surrounded by: at least 3 enemies ---> Attack.
...or even fancier conjuctions btwn fighter and mage...
Self: Surrounded by: at least 3 enemies ---> Use Item: Warmth Balm
  (+)
Ally: Surrounded by: at least 3 enemies ---> Use Ability: Fireball
Sure, you could setup
Ally: Surrounded by: at least 3 enemies ---> Use Ability: Taunt
but there is no promise that your Taunt will be in range w/o movement controls or using the behavior setting to keep mages in dangerous range of all the melee.

The scripting interface could have been made better if it allowed you to save over the default script slots. It is annoying, for example, to like running Morrigan on the support script plus a couple changes of your own, switch over to a custom script designed for boss fights, and then have to do all your changes again when you return to support script.

[Loc'n'lol]

My typical allistair tactics : self : any -> shield wall

Hmmm that's it.

So yeah, that's the last skill I would invest in.

[8DKimone]

I use the Advanced Tactics mod and I don't think I could imagine playing without it. I tend to only play my main character and prefer that my companions be "self sufficient" and the mod allows this (note that the current 3.0 beta version is bugged with "invisible walls"). The mod allows for support of a number of options unavailable in the default tactics, such as using "Group Heal" when 3 allies <50% health, my rogue automatically moves to flank/backstab position when in melee, launch a fireball at enemies using ranged attack if they're clustered together in a group of 3 or more, etc.