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Canonizing Shepard


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#101
Han Shot First

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If there are Mass Effect games beyond the Shepard trilogy, Bioware wouldn't necessarily have to make certain details about Shepard canon. Since Bioware has already confirmed that ME3 is the last we'll see of Shepard even if the universe lives on, Bioware would not have to make either Male or Fem Shep canon, since Commander Shepard would not actually be in Mass Effect IV. Any references to Shepard in the codex or in conversation would be gender neutral. Likewise nothing would be said about his or her appearance, and no particular romance option would have to be made canon. If Bioware is smart it would set Mass Effect IV long after Shepard would have died a natural death anyway. That solves any questions as to why he doesn't appear in game and avoids them having to make certain details about Shepard canon.

Where Bioware *may* have to make some details is canon, is with the endings and the future of the Mass Effect universe. If there is a fail ending, that will no doubt be a non canon ending just as the ending in Mass Effect 2 where Shepard dies is not canon, unless the player quits the series at that point. Without knowing more about ME3 endings at this point however it is hard to say how tricky it would be for Bioware to make a Mass Effect IV without invalidating some player choices. It is going to be tricky if the Paragon & Renegade playthroughs result in a radically different galaxies in the post-war.

Modifié par Han Shot First, 15 septembre 2011 - 06:07 .


#102
Dexi

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LOL the OP was so gay...
The poster was like:
"ok, so sometime they gonna make a canon Shepard. So here's the Shep they should make canon: my Shep." lol
That's exactly how it is...

#103
ObserverStatus

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@OP TLDR

#104
Guest_Catch This Fade_*

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Dexi wrote...

LOL the OP was so gay...
The poster was like:
"ok, so sometime they gonna make a canon Shepard. So here's the Shep they should make canon: my Shep." lol
That's exactly how it is...

Fail...

#105
Han Shot First

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Dexi wrote...

LOL the OP was so gay...
The poster was like:
"ok, so sometime they gonna make a canon Shepard. So here's the Shep they should make canon: my Shep." lol
That's exactly how it is...


I wouldn't go so far as to call the OP 'gay,' but otherwise I agree with your post. It sounds as if he just wants his version of Commander Shepard to made canon.

well. For starters some of the biggest fans of the Mass Effect series are also fans of FemShep. While it is true most of the people who played Mass Effect tended to play a male Shepard, this was primarily due to the fact that male Shepard was simply the default character. For the people who really tended to get deep into the game, the hardcore fans, most of them played FemShep at least once.


That was the OP's weakest point, I thought.

Claiming that Fem Shep fans are more into the game or the universe than those that played as a Male Shep is completely ridiculous, and untrue. Fem Shep or Male Shep is just another player choice, like saving the Rachni or killing the Council. Neither makes some one more 'hard core' or more of a fan of the game.

#106
Dexi

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jreezy wrote...

Dexi wrote...

LOL the OP was so gay...
The poster was like:
"ok, so sometime they gonna make a canon Shepard. So here's the Shep they should make canon: my Shep." lol
That's exactly how it is...

Fail...


Trolled... 

#107
quaigee

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Dexi wrote...

jreezy wrote...

Dexi wrote...

LOL the OP was so gay...
The poster was like:
"ok, so sometime they gonna make a canon Shepard. So here's the Shep they should make canon: my Shep." lol
That's exactly how it is...

Fail...


Trolled... 


What are you? 11? Grow up

#108
DaringMoosejaw

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This entire thread is gay, which makes me feel a bit gay, but I'm alright with gay people.

Also, who else came into this thread thinking it was about the church making Shepard a saint?

Modifié par DaringMoosejaw, 15 septembre 2011 - 06:26 .


#109
Dexi

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quaigee wrote...

Dexi wrote...

jreezy wrote...

Dexi wrote...

LOL the OP was so gay...
The poster was like:
"ok, so sometime they gonna make a canon Shepard. So here's the Shep they should make canon: my Shep." lol
That's exactly how it is...

Fail...


Trolled... 


What are you? 11? Grow up


Lol, and you assumed I'm 11 year-old and need to grow up from? 

Clearly, pointing out how immature I am makes you look very mature. 
You're intelligence level got crystal clear when after I said I'm trolling, you responded in a negative manner, basically further feeding the troll, when a typical troll is looking for exactly that type of response. 

I consider you rethink your posts from now on, and not jump immediately with attacks, trying to looks smart.
Also, I could very well be a lot older than you :) 

#110
111987

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If there is a canon Shepard, I think it will most likely be a Male, Soldier, Earthborn, Sole Survivor, Paragon Shepard. Why?

Why Male? Because the vast majority of players identity Shepard as a male. Majority wins.

Why Soldier/Earthborn/Sole Survivor? Just because that is the default Shepard. Those details ultimately don't really matter though.

Why Paragon? Because it allows for the most content. Simple as that. That way future games can incorporate something like the Rachni.

#111
Computer_God91

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PXXL wrote...

There is no canon. I read the whole thing wich is pretty much what everybody has with Mass Effect.. trying to push what they experience as canon.
The story is exactly the same and doesn't change if your sex does.


this

#112
UpDownLeftRight

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The only thing Bioware would need to make Canon would be "Shepard united the galaxy and helped defeat the Reapers." and what the state of the galaxy is. There is no need for them to go deeper into who Shepard was.

#113
Zkyire

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Kreidian wrote...

There are a wide number of reasons why this would work so well. For starters some of the biggest fans of the Mass Effect series are also fans of FemShep. While it is true most of the people who played Mass Effect tended to play a male Shepard, this was primarily due to the fact that male Shepard was simply the default character. For the people who really tended to get deep into the game, the hardcore fans, most of them played FemShep at least once.


80% vs 20%. Landslide in favour of MaleShep.


Kreidian wrote...

To put it another way, most of the people who played male Shepard probably won't be too bothered if Shepard turns out to be female in some distant future project. By contrast people who played female Shepard tend to be much more devoted to their character's story and the franchise, and therefore would get a much deeper appreciation if canon Shepard turned out to be female as well.
Keep in mind I'm talking about generalizations here, I'm sure there are plenty of exceptions out there. My point is Bioware will get more bang for their fan service buck by making Shepard female.


Again, 80% maleshepards vs 20% femaleshepards.


Kreidian wrote...

To prove my point look at how passionate fans have been about FemShep recently. The best Mass Effect cosplay features Holly Conrad as female Shepard, and have you heard Morgan Webb talking about Shepard on G4? She insists that Shepard must be female every time. The fact that the fans themselves had a say in what female Shepard should look like is huge. Even if not all the fans agree, even if the end result isn't exactly what everyone wanted, the important thing to keep in mind is that the default FemShep was decided based on direct fan input, for better or worse this is what the fans wanted. The fact that FemShep is getting so much attention at all for ME3 is a result of the huge outpouring of support from fans of FemShep.  This all speaks volumes on the dedication of female Shepard fans out there. And likewise it would be a huge gesture on the part of Bioware if the future canon Shepard was ultimately the one decided by the fans.



..because Sheploo already exists, whereas a ModelFemshep does not.

Kreidian wrote...

For me, however, the best reason to make future canon Shepard female is because the overall story just has more impact. The story of Shepard just becomes more interesting and more compelling once you add the detail that she was a woman.* I have nothing against male Shepard - and in fact I really enjoy playing my male paragon vanguard - but story from the male Shepard perspective has this tendency to get boiled down to just a basic story of some jarhead shooting the crap out of everything till the galaxy was saved. Cool enough certainly but not nearly as compelling to me.


No it doesn't. The only thing that's different is that she gets to bang a couple different characters. It has no bearing on the story/events/combat/outcomes.

Kreidian wrote...

This is the same reason why I feel that a romance history with Liara would be the best choice. I admit, I'm a big Liara fan, she is my favorite romance option followed very closely by Tali. But a big part of that is because I feel the story of Liara in relation to Shepard is a much more significant one. More so then any other character we've seen Liara grow and develop into a really cool character. Likewise the story of Liara and Shepard's romance is that much more compelling to me then any of the other romances. ( Though again, Tali runs a very close second. :) ) After all look at all the sacrifices Liara went through to retrieve Shepard's body, and the risks she took just on the chance she could be brought to life. In addition a romance with Liara adds additional dramatic elements just from the mere fact that she is an alien. Themes of racial tensions, cultures clashing, and having to work with that while still maintaining a relationship all makes for a much more interesting romance and a much more interesting story overall.


See underlined.


Kreidian wrote...

This does bring up a question about Bioware's previous marketing. After all if the franchise was originally built on a male Shepard model how can they work moving to a female one? That's actually very simple as it turns out. Firstly it is important to understand that such a future product will be very different, they won't need to use Shepard at all for the marketing since it will be a very different story set in the same universe. ( Much like how you won't see Revan on the cover of the SWTOR game box. ) Beyond that they already laid the groundwork to explain this change in the game itself. Recall how Jacob mentions that the Alliance replaced Shepard with another model for their advertisements, because apparently she didn't "test well". So it's not a stretch to say that the Alliance had a male model on their advertisements since they felt that would "test better" despite the fact that Shepard was female. It would certainly add an interesting twist to the future of the Mass Effect story.


"Shepard is a woman" is not an "interesting twist".

#114
Carfax

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Kreidian wrote...

This train of thought was sparked in reaction to what is happening with The Old Republic as it expands into the MMO realm. Specifically the work by Drew Karpyshyn in his upcoming novel to effectively canonize Revan.

As a result alot of background facts about Revan are being nailed down in one direction or another. For example, Revan will now officially be male and saved the Republic. Mind you, the people at Bioware have made it clear that this is not intended to invalidate the choices players made in their own games playing the Knights of the Old Republic. This is to lay a common framework - a separate path - that everyone can refer to as part of the process of building up the story of the Old Republic MMO.

The reason I specify this is because we can expect that eventually, as the Mass Effect franchise evolves beyond Shepard's story, there will be a need to develop the same common framework for future games. In short you can expect Bioware at some point will need to canonize Shepard.

For the moment one might assume Bioware would just use what they've already put together. Meaning that the classic Sheploo model for Male Shepard would be rehashed for their canon Shepard. However I think they should go with a very different approach this time.

My suggestion is that the future canon Shepard should be Female, and to take it a step further, she also had a romance with Liara.

There are a wide number of reasons why this would work so well. For starters some of the biggest fans of the Mass Effect series are also fans of FemShep. While it is true most of the people who played Mass Effect tended to play a male Shepard, this was primarily due to the fact that male Shepard was simply the default character. For the people who really tended to get deep into the game, the hardcore fans, most of them played FemShep at least once.

To put it another way, most of the people who played male Shepard probably won't be too bothered if Shepard turns out to be female in some distant future project. By contrast people who played female Shepard tend to be much more devoted to their character's story and the franchise, and therefore would get a much deeper appreciation if canon Shepard turned out to be female as well.
Keep in mind I'm talking about generalizations here, I'm sure there are plenty of exceptions out there. My point is Bioware will get more bang for their fan service buck by making Shepard female.

To prove my point look at how passionate fans have been about FemShep recently. The best Mass Effect cosplay features Holly Conrad as female Shepard, and have you heard Morgan Webb talking about Shepard on G4? She insists that Shepard must be female every time. The fact that the fans themselves had a say in what female Shepard should look like is huge. Even if not all the fans agree, even if the end result isn't exactly what everyone wanted, the important thing to keep in mind is that the default FemShep was decided based on direct fan input, for better or worse this is what the fans wanted. The fact that FemShep is getting so much attention at all for ME3 is a result of the huge outpouring of support from fans of FemShep.  This all speaks volumes on the dedication of female Shepard fans out there. And likewise it would be a huge gesture on the part of Bioware if the future canon Shepard was ultimately the one decided by the fans.

For me, however, the best reason to make future canon Shepard female is because the overall story just has more impact. The story of Shepard just becomes more interesting and more compelling once you add the detail that she was a woman. I have nothing against male Shepard - and in fact I really enjoy playing my male paragon vanguard - but story from the male Shepard perspective has this tendency to get boiled down to just a basic story of some jarhead shooting the crap out of everything till the galaxy was saved. Cool enough certainly but not nearly as compelling to me.

This is the same reason why I feel that a romance history with Liara would be the best choice. I admit, I'm a big Liara fan, she is my favorite romance option followed very closely by Tali. But a big part of that is because I feel the story of Liara in relation to Shepard is a much more significant one. More so then any other character we've seen Liara grow and develop into a really cool character. Likewise the story of Liara and Shepard's romance is that much more compelling to me then any of the other romances. ( Though again, Tali runs a very close second. :) ) After all look at all the sacrifices Liara went through to retrieve Shepard's body, and the risks she took just on the chance she could be brought to life. In addition a romance with Liara adds additional dramatic elements just from the mere fact that she is an alien. Themes of racial tensions, cultures clashing, and having to work with that while still maintaining a relationship all makes for a much more interesting romance and a much more interesting story overall.

This does bring up a question about Bioware's previous marketing. After all if the franchise was originally built on a male Shepard model how can they work moving to a female one? That's actually very simple as it turns out. Firstly it is important to understand that such a future product will be very different, they won't need to use Shepard at all for the marketing since it will be a very different story set in the same universe. ( Much like how you won't see Revan on the cover of the SWTOR game box. ) Beyond that they already laid the groundwork to explain this change in the game itself. Recall how Jacob mentions that the Alliance replaced Shepard with another model for their advertisements, because apparently she didn't "test well". So it's not a stretch to say that the Alliance had a male model on their advertisements since they felt that would "test better" despite the fact that Shepard was female. It would certainly add an interesting twist to the future of the Mass Effect story.

Yes this is all just my opinion of what I think will make the best story in the end. Feel free to share yours. :)


tl;dr - If you're too lazy to actually read more then two sentences then I don't care about your opinion anyway.


Wow, biased much? Posted Image   Your entire post is nothing but one long piece of highly opinionated ranting with no objective reasoning.

Bioware would be fools if they made canon Shepard female.  First off, the movie Shepard WILL be male, there's no doubt.  Female leads in action movies don't generate the kind of sales and interest that strong male leads do, unless you're a feminist or weak beta male.

And it makes far more sense for Shepard to be a male from a realistic perspective, because warfare and soldiering has always been the province of men.  It makes no sense at all historically, or biologically for the FIRST human specter (an elite group of combat operatives) to be female, and not male.

Then you have to put up with additional difficulties such as whether to make a canonized female Shepard aesthetically pleasing, or more realistic; aka butch.

No one (whether male or female) wants to see some scarred tough chick with steroid induced muscles, so Bioware would go the route they always do, which is to have a ridiculously attractive FemShep that looks nothing like what you'd expect for an elite soldier capable of doing what Shepard has done.

So you end up with a Xena Warrior princess wannabe that kicks men 30 feet away blah blah blah Posted Image

Like I said, the amount of complications you get from having a canonical Shepard be female is just not worth the effort.  It's much easier to just make Shepard male.

#115
Aggie Punbot

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Carfax wrote...

Bioware would be fools if they made canon Shepard female.  First off, the movie Shepard WILL be male, there's no doubt.  Female leads in action movies don't generate the kind of sales and interest that strong male leads do, unless you're a feminist or weak beta male.


This I agree with.

Carfax wrote...

And it makes far more sense for Shepard to be a male from a realistic perspective, because warfare and soldiering has always been the province of men.  It makes no sense at all historically, or biologically for the FIRST human specter (an elite group of combat operatives) to be female, and not male.


This I do not. The year is 2185; humanity would have gotten past the sexist role associations for certain jobs. Just because men have historically been the 'first' to do anything related to warfare doesn't mean that it always has to be that way.

Carfax wrote...

Then you have to put up with additional difficulties such as whether to make a canonized female Shepard aesthetically pleasing, or more realistic; aka butch.


It's a Hollywood (?) movie; of course she'd be drop dead gorgeous. Can't risk having a realistic-looking female as a soldier now, can we?

Carfax wrote...

No one (whether male or female) wants to see some scarred tough chick with steroid induced muscles, so Bioware would go the route they always do, which is to have a ridiculously attractive FemShep that looks nothing like what you'd expect for an elite soldier capable of doing what Shepard has done.


For proof of this, see both femShep polls and the ridiculous outcry when a blonde Shepard won the first one. Maker knows blonde women aren't good for anything except being stereotypically blonde; no soldiering for her![/sarcasm]

#116
Carfax

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TS2Aggie wrote...

This I do not. The year is 2185; humanity would have gotten past the sexist role associations for certain jobs. Just because men have historically been the 'first' to do anything related to warfare doesn't mean that it always has to be that way.


The supposedly sexist role associations that have been with mankind since the beginning, came about for a valid reason. 

Women have greater limitations placed on them from a physical (and certain mental) stand point than do men, when it comes to strenuous and violent activity.  Historically, this has made them unfit for warfare, to the extent that no known Society or Civilization has ever relied primarily upon female soldiers/troops for it's defense.

To do so, would subject women to a much greater risk of death than their male counterparts, as well as reducing the overall efficacy of the combat force.

I don't see why this would change in the year 2185, unless women aren't women anymore.  And don't bring up genetic enhancement.  Genetic enhancement can't rewrite your genetic code to produce the kind of drastic changes required to bring women up to par with men (thats more like genetic engineering which is illegal I believe)...and even if it could, the same genetic enhancement would work on men just as effectively, thus the two genders would never be equal regardless.

#117
Aggie Punbot

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Carfax wrote...

TS2Aggie wrote...

This I do not. The year is 2185; humanity would have gotten past the sexist role associations for certain jobs. Just because men have historically been the 'first' to do anything related to warfare doesn't mean that it always has to be that way.


The supposedly sexist role associations that have been with mankind since the beginning, came about for a valid reason. 


They may have been considered valid at the time but even today's modern women have proven that they are more than capable to pick up a gun and fight in combat scenarios. One would think that 170 years into the future that would be even more true.

As for your immediately dismissing genetic enhancement, you don't get to choose what parts the opposing side of view is 'allowed' to use to defend their point. Genetic enhancement works for both genders and is a legitimate reason that women could be considered even more physically capable in the future than they are now. Don't apply the mentality of a certain faction of people in today's society to that of the one illustrated in the Mass Effect future, because they are not the same.

#118
Computer_God91

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Carfax wrote...

TS2Aggie wrote...

This I do not. The year is 2185; humanity would have gotten past the sexist role associations for certain jobs. Just because men have historically been the 'first' to do anything related to warfare doesn't mean that it always has to be that way.


The supposedly sexist role associations that have been with mankind since the beginning, came about for a valid reason. 

Women have greater limitations placed on them from a physical (and certain mental) stand point than do men, when it comes to strenuous and violent activity.  Historically, this has made them unfit for warfare, to the extent that no known Society or Civilization has ever relied primarily upon female soldiers/troops for it's defense.

To do so, would subject women to a much greater risk of death than their male counterparts, as well as reducing the overall efficacy of the combat force.

I don't see why this would change in the year 2185, unless women aren't women anymore.  And don't bring up genetic enhancement.  Genetic enhancement can't rewrite your genetic code to produce the kind of drastic changes required to bring women up to par with men (thats more like genetic engineering which is illegal I believe)...and even if it could, the same genetic enhancement would work on men just as effectively, thus the two genders would never be equal regardless.


This 100%. and inb4urasexistwomenarejustasgood

Seriously, people need to get over the fact that genders are not equal. Their are certain tasks men do better then women and certain tasks women do better then men because of they way they are built. Get over it. There is no equality in reality.

Modifié par Computer_God91, 18 septembre 2011 - 08:24 .


#119
Zkyire

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TS2Aggie wrote...

Carfax wrote...

TS2Aggie wrote...

This I do not. The year is 2185; humanity would have gotten past the sexist role associations for certain jobs. Just because men have historically been the 'first' to do anything related to warfare doesn't mean that it always has to be that way.


The supposedly sexist role associations that have been with mankind since the beginning, came about for a valid reason. 


They may have been considered valid at the time but even today's modern women have proven that they are more than capable to pick up a gun and fight in combat scenarios. One would think that 170 years into the future that would be even more true.

As for your immediately dismissing genetic enhancement, you don't get to choose what parts the opposing side of view is 'allowed' to use to defend their point. Genetic enhancement works for both genders and is a legitimate reason that women could be considered even more physically capable in the future than they are now. Don't apply the mentality of a certain faction of people in today's society to that of the one illustrated in the Mass Effect future, because they are not the same.


The point he's making on genetic enhancements is that even if women get them; so will men.

If we assign a points system to it: Women would have 5 points of strength. Men would have 10. Due to genetic enhancements, women could get an extra +5 to strength, bringing them to 10 points. But men could also get those +5 points, bringing them to 15.

Meaning no matter how powerful women become because of those
enhancements; men will always have the edge. Unless you want to give
women the exact same bodies as men and create some sort of weird, unisex
species.

Modifié par IEatWhatIPoo, 18 septembre 2011 - 08:27 .


#120
Aggie Punbot

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Just because men "have the edge" in a physical contest doesn't mean that women aren't capable.Besides, physicality isn't the only thing that matters in combat; intelligence, tactical strategy, mechanical eptitude, weapon accuracy, storm speed; those are all things that don't 'require' one to be a brawny leviathan to perform and are all vital to effective combative effectiveness.

I think in the past, women were protected from open warfare so that they could be held 'in reserve' to produce the next generation (i.e. have the babies). With the expansion of humanity beyond Earth and the overpopulation of our homeworld, there really is no more need to protect women in such a manner.

Modifié par TS2Aggie, 18 septembre 2011 - 08:30 .


#121
Zkyire

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TS2Aggie wrote...

Just because men "have the edge" doesn't mean that women aren't capable.


And it's not that they wouldn't be capable. It's that they'd never be AS capable in combat as men.

#122
Aggie Punbot

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IEatWhatIPoo wrote...

TS2Aggie wrote...

Just because men "have the edge" doesn't mean that women aren't capable.


And it's not that they wouldn't be capable. It's that they'd never be AS capable in combat as men.

That's arguable. However, even if that is true: so what? 'Not as capable as someone else' does not mean 'not capable at all.'

Modifié par TS2Aggie, 18 septembre 2011 - 08:31 .


#123
Computer_God91

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TS2Aggie wrote...

Just because men "have the edge" doesn't mean that women aren't capable.


Why put a female in when a male can do it better? There is no reason to. Males evolved to be good at hunting and warfare, you can't change evolution. You just have to deal with the fact that Men have the edge here and there is no benefit for having a woman in place of a man. Plus from a survival stand point I see exactly why men become good at this and why women didn't because women are far more important for the survival of the speices then men.

#124
Aggie Punbot

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That's the thing, though: you *don't* know for certain that a man would automatically be better than a woman in a combative role simply because he has a penis. Not all men are brawny and physical and not all women are 'shrinking violets.'

#125
Computer_God91

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TS2Aggie wrote...

Just because men "have the edge" in a physical contest doesn't mean that women aren't capable.Besides, physicality isn't the only thing that matters in combat; intelligence, tactical strategy, mechanical eptitude, weapon accuracy, storm speed; those are all things that don't 'require' one to be a brawny leviathan to perform and are all vital to effective combative effectiveness.


You also need to have a strong will to handle all the violence that comes with the position. I'd say men would have an easier time dealing with it then women. I'm not saying women can't, I'm just saying that men would have an easier time because that's how men are raised.