191 réponses à ce sujet

[Zkyire]

Ophiskc wrote...

Anyway, this thread is becoming a fail and once again a sexist discussion. Remember the theme is "Canonizing Shepard", not what men or women are capable to or not to do.

But it is all relevant.

The possibility of Femshep being canon is tied to the fundamental differences between men and women for combat roles.

[leggywillow]

Ah, I see this thread has devolved into completely moronic sexism.  Nice to see you're still predictable, BSN.

Are you guys really using the argument that Shepard should be a man because men are physically stronger?!  In a fictional science fiction universe that is so advanced CANCER HAS BEEN CURED?!  When Shepard casually and frequently undergoes augmentation procedures to make even her skin tougher?  I mean damn!  Get some perspective, people.

[Takio]

Sheploo, is default Shepard and the one that will be canonized, if they ever decide to do it.

[Zkyire]

leggywillow wrote...

Ah, I see this thread has devolved into completely moronic sexism.  Nice to see you're still predictable, BSN.

Are you guys really using the argument that Shepard should be a man because men are physically stronger?!  In a fictional science fiction universe that is so advanced CANCER HAS BEEN CURED?!  When Shepard casually and frequently undergoes augmentation procedures to make even her skin tougher?  I mean damn!  Get some perspective, people.

That's the point.

Whatever enhancements women can get, men can get the exact same ones.

When a man and a woman have the same genetic enhancements, it comes down to whatever is there of the natural bodies, of which the man will still be bigger and stronger. The man will still have longer reach. The man will still have denser bones. The man will still have greater muscle mass, the man will still have a faster running speed.

None of us have been saying that women are useless or incapable. We have been saying that physically, no matter how powerful women become, men will still have the advantage.

There is a reason why there are no women in the special forces today. And even in the future, since men will still be bigger and stronger, and the SF are limited to the best of the best, then women being in the SF would still be nonexistant/rare.

This includes Femshep being in N7.

Would biotics largely neutralise this? Yes.

But canonshep, if there ever will be one, will likely be a soldier, not one of the biotic classes.

Modifié par IEatWhatIPoo, 19 septembre 2011 - 12:19 .

[Golden Owl]

Carfax wrote...

TS2Aggie wrote...

This I do not. The year is 2185; humanity would have gotten past the sexist role associations for certain jobs. Just because men have historically been the 'first' to do anything related to warfare doesn't mean that it always has to be that way.

The supposedly sexist role associations that have been with mankind since the beginning, came about for a valid reason. 

Women have greater limitations placed on them from a physical (and certain mental) stand point than do men, when it comes to strenuous and violent activity.  Historically, this has made them unfit for warfare, to the extent that no known Society or Civilization has ever relied primarily upon female soldiers/troops for it's defense.

To do so, would subject women to a much greater risk of death than their male counterparts, as well as reducing the overall efficacy of the combat force.

I don't see why this would change in the year 2185, unless women aren't women anymore.  And don't bring up genetic enhancement.  Genetic enhancement can't rewrite your genetic code to produce the kind of drastic changes required to bring women up to par with men (thats more like genetic engineering which is illegal I believe)...and even if it could, the same genetic enhancement would work on men just as effectively, thus the two genders would never be equal regardless.

Superior weaponry and armor and cyber enhancements equalize the field in ME....I'm assuming enhancements and equipment wouldn't come cheap, so would be a rare commodity.

As for RL women and war...THE most valid reason, women are the ones who give birth....if you send the majority of your women off to war and your army is decimated, that's going to cause some very serious population issues at home.

Modifié par Golden Owl, 19 septembre 2011 - 12:20 .

[Ophiskc]

IEatWhatIPoo wrote...

Whatever enhancements women can get, men can get the exact same ones.

You dont know, women biologically have a body that is more capable to handle stress/pain , for obvious reasons. (another human can come out from their sexual organ for gods sake, they bleed for days every month and dont die, etc).
Their bodies could perfectly handle more enhancements that would be problematic for men, making them equal, if not better, physically.

To apply current logic to a fictional future universe is senseless, and going away from the theme

[Mims]

I love the paranoia people have over canon Shep, regardless of gender. Like somehow, if Bioware declares X, their Shepard will be taken out back and shot Old Yeller style.

[JamieCOTC]

Mims wrote...

I love the paranoia people have over canon Shep, regardless of gender. Like somehow, if Bioware declares X, their Shepard will be taken out back and shot Old Yeller style.

I have not doubt that Shep will eventually be canonized as a male soldier, but I really don't care.  Not my Shepard.

What's funny is that if the ME movie is highly successful, Sheploo will be replaced as the face of Shepard. The actor playing Shep will then be the new "canon."  Millions more than have even played ME will associate the new actor w/ Shepard.

Modifié par JamieCOTC, 19 septembre 2011 - 01:02 .

[Zkyire]

Ophiskc wrote...

IEatWhatIPoo wrote...

Whatever enhancements women can get, men can get the exact same ones.

You dont know, women biologically have a body that is more capable to handle stress/pain , for obvious reasons. (another human can come out from their sexual organ for gods sake, they bleed for days every month and dont die, etc).
Their bodies could perfectly handle more enhancements that would be problematic for men, making them equal, if not better, physically.

To apply current logic to a fictional future universe is senseless, and going away from the theme

Women giving birth does not mean women have greater pain tolerance.

Women having periods does not mean women have greater pain tolerance.

Where are you getting those ideas from?

[AdmiralCheez]

IEatWhatIPoo wrote...

Women giving birth does not mean women have greater pain tolerance.

Women having periods does not mean women have greater pain tolerance.

Where are you getting those ideas from?

Try bleeding out of your dick for five days.  Let me know how it goes.

As for me, I still say that a canonical female Shepard would be a lot more interesting than a male.  Big goddamn heroes are almost always male, so it'd be a fun reversal of the trope.

[Zkyire]

I get what you people are saying. But even with cybernetic and genetic enhancements to both sexes, the only way men and women will ever be physically equal is if they have the exact same bodies, which will mean, as I said, some kind of unisex species of humans, where men and women are the same height, weight, bone structure, bone density, musclemass, hormones etc.

But we wouldn't really BE men and women then.

Modifié par IEatWhatIPoo, 19 septembre 2011 - 01:10 .

[Zkyire]

AdmiralCheez wrote...

IEatWhatIPoo wrote...

Women giving birth does not mean women have greater pain tolerance.

Women having periods does not mean women have greater pain tolerance.

Where are you getting those ideas from?

Try bleeding out of your dick for five days.  Let me know how it goes.

As for me, I still say that a canonical female Shepard would be a lot more interesting than a male.  Big goddamn heroes are almost always male, so it'd be a fun reversal of the trope.

Women have periods and give birth because they're FEMALE. It has nothing to do with pain tolerance.

[Carfax]

Golden Owl wrote...

Superior weaponry and armor and cyber enhancements equalize the field in ME....I'm assuming enhancements and equipment wouldn't come cheap, so would be a rare commodity.

What makes you think superior weaponry, armor and cyber enhancements "equalize" the field of battle?  And how do you define superior?

The weapons in the ME setting tend to use mass acceleration technology, so they are supposedly much more powerful than today's weapons in terms of the velocity the rounds can attain..  I don't know if you've ever held a real gun before, or worn a kevlar jacket, but the damn things tend to be very heavy.  In fact, the modern infantry soldier carries more  weight into battle than any warrior in past history when you take into account the weight of his rifle, provisions, ammo etc.....

Anyway, the point is, I would expect the weight of armor and weapons to increase substantially in the ME setting due to their complexity and how powerful they've become.

As for cyber enhancements, as people have already noted, what you can do to women, you can also do to men; and since women start at a significantly lower baseline than men, it makes no sense from a financial perspective to "upgrade" their abilities, when you could spend less money on a man and get better results.

As for RL women and war...THE most valid reason, women are the ones who give birth....if you send the majority of your women off to war and your army is decimated, that's going to cause some very serious population issues at home.

Yes, there's this as well to be sure.  Ignorant people are so quick to yell "sexism" without even understanding the big picture.  There is absolutely no need to send women into war, unless your back is to the wall like the Soviets were in WW2; and even then it was done reluctantly. 

[Golden Owl]

IEatWhatIPoo wrote...

Ophiskc wrote...

IEatWhatIPoo wrote...

Whatever enhancements women can get, men can get the exact same ones.

You dont know, women biologically have a body that is more capable to handle stress/pain , for obvious reasons. (another human can come out from their sexual organ for gods sake, they bleed for days every month and dont die, etc).
Their bodies could perfectly handle more enhancements that would be problematic for men, making them equal, if not better, physically.

To apply current logic to a fictional future universe is senseless, and going away from the theme

Women giving birth does not mean women have greater pain tolerance.

Women having periods does not mean women have greater pain tolerance.

Where are you getting those ideas from?

From what I understand...science, etc...Apparently women and men are designed to cope with two different kinds of pain....Women: Deeper, more throbbing kind of pain...Men: More immediate, dramatic kind of pain....An interesting case in point I noticed myself....As a woman, I noticed in a Martial Arts class I was taking, the young men handled the hits better than most of the young women...hitting the mats from a throw, etc...the women took longer to get used to the jarring effect....Where as when we were instructed to drop into a 'Horse Stance' and hold it for a long period of time, I found the young men around me eventually buckling under the pain...but I was able to sink into that deep pain and hold it.,...Kind of seemed to me a self confirmation to the science I had heard....Hard wired for what we are naturally expected to face for survival reasons.

[AdmiralCheez]

IEatWhatIPoo wrote...

Women have periods and give birth because they're FEMALE. It has nothing to do with pain tolerance.

And yet you insist that being female is somehow a -1 military ability.

But you know what you can't mod?  The ability to command, to deal with stress, to think your way out of a tough situation, to bond with your crew, to be willing to make ugly decisions...  THAT sh*t knows no gender.

[Golden Owl]

Carfax wrote...

Golden Owl wrote...

Superior weaponry and armor and cyber enhancements equalize the field in ME....I'm assuming enhancements and equipment wouldn't come cheap, so would be a rare commodity.

What makes you think superior weaponry, armor and cyber enhancements "equalize" the field of battle?  And how do you define superior?

The weapons in the ME setting tend to use mass acceleration technology, so they are supposedly much more powerful than today's weapons in terms of the velocity the rounds can attain..  I don't know if you've ever held a real gun before, or worn a kevlar jacket, but the damn things tend to be very heavy.  In fact, the modern infantry soldier carries more  weight into battle than any warrior in past history when you take into account the weight of his rifle, provisions, ammo etc.....

Anyway, the point is, I would expect the weight of armor and weapons to increase substantially in the ME setting due to their complexity and how powerful they've become.

As for cyber enhancements, as people have already noted, what you can do to women, you can also do to men; and since women start at a significantly lower baseline than men, it makes no sense from a financial perspective to "upgrade" their abilities, when you could spend less money on a man and get better results.

Your missing the point I felt the most important element, of which I have based my above comment on...I have bolded it.

As for the weight of the weapons and armor...Yes I expect them to be heavy...thus the enhancement needs....but I just don't think the enhancements are that common....if I remember rightly, the codex makes mention of it also...aka, lack of disease, obesity, etc...only the better off can afford the enhancements, etc...

[Takio]

JamieCOTC wrote...

Mims wrote...

I love the paranoia people have over canon Shep, regardless of gender. Like somehow, if Bioware declares X, their Shepard will be taken out back and shot Old Yeller style.

I have not doubt that Shep will eventually be canonized as a male soldier, but I really don't care.  Not my Shepard.

What's funny is that if the ME movie is highly successful, Sheploo will be replaced as the face of Shepard. The actor playing Shep will then be the new "canon."  Millions more than have even played ME will associate the new actor w/ Shepard.

Unless they get Mark Vanderloo to act as him. 

[Carfax]

Golden Owl wrote...

As for the weight of the weapons and armor...Yes I expect them to be heavy...thus the enhancement needs....but I just don't think the enhancements are that common....if I remember rightly, the codex makes mention of it also...aka, lack of disease, obesity, etc...only the better off can afford the enhancements, etc...

As far as I know, cyber enhancements would be very rare...but genetic enhancements would be fairly common.  I'm not a buff on ME lore, but I remember it being said that Alliance soldiers receive "routine" gene therapy for instance.

Gene therapy or enhancement presumably means optimizing someone's genetic code so that their bodies function at it's greatest ability, but it doesn't make you into a superhuman......not by a long shot.

Shepard for instance would probably be equivalent to an Olympic athlete of today's standard, or slightly better.

Genetic enhancements can improve performance, but since they don't affect the genetic code on a fundamental level, they cannot affect large and dramatic changes in performance or ability.

Human genetic limitations would still exist in the ME setting, as much as they do today.

[Mims]

JamieCOTC wrote...
Millions more than have even played ME will associate the new actor w/ Shepard.

In this scenario, we're assuming the movie is successful? Millions of people watch a mass effect movie, enjoy it, but assume Manshep is male [and some random Matthew Fox esque actor]... and subsequently increase the fandom, increase interest in the game and mythos, convince people to try out the game, and encourage more games? Not to mention, being one of the very few successful video game films.

Don't get me wrong. I am Femshep all the way. But I just don't get how that is a bad thing.

[And, if the movie is terrible, we act like so many other bold fandoms before us and suffer in mourning for a few years. In that case, whoever the 'Manshepard' is will become a loathed figure, and mostly forgotten by the masses.]

Modifié par Mims, 19 septembre 2011 - 01:32 .

[Ophiskc]

Takio wrote...

JamieCOTC wrote...

I have not doubt that Shep will eventually be canonized as a male soldier, but I really don't care.  Not my Shepard.

What's funny is that if the ME movie is highly successful, Sheploo will be replaced as the face of Shepard. The actor playing Shep will then be the new "canon."  Millions more than have even played ME will associate the new actor w/ Shepard.

Unless they get Mark Vanderloo to act as him.

I dont think he's an actor, and that could turn out awful. And i agree, if the movie is successful the actor face will get more recognized than the one used for Shepard so far.

I guess it will be strange for people picking up the game for the first time to not being able to use this actor face. Or to convince them that the movie decisions are not the "real" ones and their own story is actually valid.

Modifié par Ophiskc, 19 septembre 2011 - 01:45 .

[SNascimento]

If I could choose, I would pick a femshep. There are just to many main male protagonist out there.

[AdmiralCheez]

jreezy wrote...

Not in Mass Effect's case. It has already been stated that Male Shepard and Female Shepard are equal, despite what the real world might tell regarding this issue.

By "real world," do you mean the cultural biases that we still haven't gotten over yet?

[Volus Warlord]

AdmiralCheez wrote...

jreezy wrote...

Not in Mass Effect's case. It has already been stated that Male Shepard and Female Shepard are equal, despite what the real world might tell regarding this issue.

By "real world," do you mean the cultural biases that we still haven't gotten over yet?

By "still haven't gotten over yet," do you mean "will never get over due to propagation in a shockingly large variety of ways"?

[AdmiralCheez]

Volus Warlord wrote...

By "still haven't gotten over yet," do you mean "will never get over due to propagation in a shockingly large variety of ways"?

Eh, give us a few... thousand... years.

Assuming we don't wipe ourselves out by then.