276 réponses à ce sujet

[sunderlance]

Simple answer: if it resembles Dragon Age 2 more than Dragon Age Origins.

Okay, cards on the table time. I am a big pc gamer and I've been playing with Bioware since Baldur's Gate. I've been following through the Baldur's, Icewind Dale, the Neverwinters (even though the second one stepped away from Bioware), Jade Empire, and even Shattered Steel - even though my copy was bugged and there was literally no way to progress past the fourth level!

I loved Mass Effect and while I missed how big the first game was, the update to game-style for the second one fitted it perfectly. Dragon Age Origins was the same. The style of play fitted the story down to the ground, but the second one was a nightmare for me. Let's be fair here though. I own two copies of Origins - a pre-ordered original and the ultimate edition released through Steam. As for DA2. I pre-ordered it again, and have even bought each DLC you have released, so no one can say I'm not being supportive.

But DA2's storytelling mechanic failed in my opinion. It was a good idea, but I believe it was executed wrong. Only 2 thing's failed it: 

                  (1)  It created a disconnect with the main character - this is in part due to the fact that we start out      
                         mid-life with the character and part due to the fact that the character creation was lacking heavily
                         from the last game (I could actually see a massive space between my character's beard and where
                         it was supposed to be attached to his face!).

                  (2) The battle system was Xbox-oriented. Planning engagements was now gone because of the new
                        element involving waves of enemies appearing, and because of the fast-paced nature of the battles,
                         playing with anything other than a console made the fighting irritating.

No. 2 however has a MASSIVE knock on effect with No.1: You almost-never showed the outcome of what we had been working for. In all honesty, the ending was the only time I felt that old familiar feeling from ANY of your previous RPGs; the only time I felt any kind of real involvement. Where Anders is concerned. After THAT particular moment though, the game reverted to being uninteresting again.

For a PC gamer, and a loyal supporter of Bioware, I forced myself through this game. When we learn that characters have gotten married during the years we don't see we feel a disconnect. When all our achievements are honoured during the years we don't see we feel a disconnect. Every time we fight to see the outcome, we're told about it in past-tense. Both the past tense and the lack of visible outcome create the disconnect I'm talking about.

I'm trying very hard to avoid spoilers (even now) but what I'm saying should be clear enough. Everyone I've talked to who has played this game via Xbox has enjoyed it as an action game, but everyone I've talked to who has played it via PC have opened with a sigh before explaining how let down they felt. Now, while some forum goers can say "well, they can make it however they want to!", and yes, that's half-true. You can. The fact is, that you are alienating nearly 80-90% of your PC supporter - even those who have been with you from the start - by focusing these games on the Xbox gamer.

I'm a big fan of CD Projeckt and the Witcher stories, and in no way do I begrudge them for taking what some have argued to be the PC's only good exclusive game and bringing it to consoles. Personally, I'm happy for them to do that. Why shouldn't they be allowed to make more money for their work. The key thing is, that they have not marginalized their original customers to meet the needs of their newer ones.

I could sit here and write about the graphics, but I don't think I need to. The fact that you released a patch for the pc and tried to make up for the deficiency tells me that you already know there was a problem there. And giving one species horns and making another more waif-like is down to aesthetics - though you should note that the less realistic something looks, the less we relate to it.

But that's the key thing for me, and for many of those I have spoken to - relatability. Relatability and reward, because if the reward for all our efforts happens off-screen, referred to off-hand, we don't feel like we've done anything except reduce the remaining game time.

To be honest, it seemed like everything we were looking for, reward-wise, was taken out of the game and put into the trailer! Where was the climbing of the steps to be appointed protector of the city? Where was the standing high above the crowds holding our weapon aloft and rallying the people? The trailer itself was actually a little funny, because it seemed as if the in-game graphic segment we were shown ("from refugee") with the lead running through a flaming home town with his family, seeing everything they'd ever cared for burn, was actually the opening that we were looking for. That occurance was mentioned in-game, but again, it was ONLY mentioned. We never saw it and so would have no reason to relate to it.

Now, this is on a open forum so I do expect I'll hear back, if not from yourselves then from other players, BUT I would like everyone to take into account that I have not come here as a hater, or a troll, and have not come simply to complain. There are plenty of little things to nit-pick at (i.e. the fact that all the press for the game suggests 10 years when it's actually closer to 8), and I've even come across forums with people complaining that we couldn't get the end-game armour in time to fight the Arishok, like in the cinematic trailer.

I'm not here for that. As I've said, I'm a huge fan and supporter of Bioware and a major RPG and PC player. But in Dragon Age 2 I, as with others, felt almost no reason to care about the characters in question, and there were moments I was really quite annoyed by this. I even went so far as to create second character of the opposite sex (something I don't often do in these sort of games as it often increases the disconnect for me) and try to play through again thinking that if I just got the right combination of things, the game would become relatable. I couldn't bring myself to get more than a third of the way through. And I even bought Legacy for the extra story that was promised, but felt I was given only more of the same.

Long story short; it's a Role Playing Game. We're supposed to associate with our characters and character's friends. We're supposed to feel like we are having to make serious choices on which everything hinges. And we're supposed to care about the plight of the world. If we don't, then it's not working right. And too much about Dragon Age 2 forces us to disconnect from it.

Like I said, big fan of the Witcher games, and Witcher 2 did the "one character telling another character the story" mechanic, so don't think I'm just complaining about that mechanic. The difference is, the fight system was involving, the choices we made affected an outcome, and we EXPERIENCED that outcome.

Look, I love Bioware. I love Dragon Age. I love your games and I repect you trying to bring in ingenuity to your games and trying to be competitive by releasing on multiple formats. I'm just hoping that these points will be taken into account to create a game that will be as amazing - if not better - than the first, and that the end result doesn't feel as it was mainly/solely focused on pleasing only those new gamers who have picked up Bioware since the Xbox 360 came out.

All my best, and with hopeful thanks in advance,
Chris.

[frustratemyself]

How are story telling issues a pc specific matter?

[PsychoBlonde]

I am a PC gamer exclusively, and I like a lot of the changes DA2 brought to the table. I don't think it was perfect--but I don't think Origins was perfect either. I'd like to see some things go and some things stay, sure. However, I'd much rather have the devs decide what they want and don't want rather than try to please some hypothetical imaginary average gamer out there.

If you don't like it, don't buy it. Me, I'll probably pre-order.

[sunderlance]

@frustratemyself - Fair point. I probably worded it badly. What IS PC specific is that the fighting mechanics emphasized the other problems to the PC audience far more than to any Xbox gamer that I've spoken to. The story problems do affect both PC and console gamers, but as the post focused more on the PC issues, I labelled it as such. I hope that answers your question.

@PsychoBlonde Like I said, there are plenty of nit-pick topics out there but I'm not here for that. The disconnect I was talking about though is virtual RPG game suicide though. It's also very easy (and lazy) to say "don't like it, don't buy", especially since we'll never know until we play the game, and I've already pointed out the difficulty where the trailers are concerned. But as far as "hypothetical imaginary average gamers" are concerned; with all the legitimate negative views on forums today, those gamers are hardly imaginary, or some hypothetical idea that may not even exist at all.

As both a writer and a big reader, one thing you learn very quickly is that you can't write for other people, as there will always be someone who is unhappy - but you do have to keep your audience in mind; their wants, hopes, and concerns - something any commercial producer of ANYTHING knows, if you want to make your product as successful as you can. Again, to do otherwise is commerical suicide. Which is why, as a Bioware supporter, I have voiced my concerns here constructively. I hope that makes things more clear.

Thanks for the replies... and so quickly too!

Modifié par sunderlance, 15 septembre 2011 - 01:15 .

[Stoomkal]

The entire community is on your side here - though you have already got the "Don't like - don't buy" line already...

Yes, eat the brains, zombie...

Most people who were fans of DA:O were *very* dissapointed with DA2, specifically for the reasons you mention.

Within 1 minute of the game beginning, we are forced into an "emotional" scene - which no one cared about. It seems as if Bioware have no idea how to handle character drama in this game, which is just bizarre.

Hawke seemed incredibly impersonal. There was no point modding his face, he was just *so* canon already.

The "action" orientation they were trying failed *dismally* if this is an action game, then it is utterly slow - you can go for hours just talking to people with no button mashing...

... of course you can - its an RPG.

The whole idea of changing their game genre has failed. It is either an action game that is horribly slow and boring.

Or an RPG that has been reduced to mediocre status.

Their "new fans" are a much smaller base of transitory game-buyers who picked it up because it came out... and they did not win any loyalty with a badly rated game.

All I know is that when they do start to make DA3...

They won't be making it for people like us... heck, they may not even make it well enough for their "new fans".

[Morroian]

sunderlance wrote...

But DA2's storytelling mechanic failed in my opinion. It was a good idea, but I believe it was executed wrong. Only 2 thing's failed it: 

                  (1)  It created a disconnect with the main character - this is in part due to the fact that we start out      
                         mid-life with the character and part due to the fact that the character creation was lacking heavily
                         from the last game (I could actually see a massive space between my character's beard and where
                         it was supposed to be attached to his face!).

No disconnect for me, in fact just the opposite, in media res is a perfectly valid storytelling technique. Overall I role played Hawke better than I was able to do so with the Warden.

sunderlance wrote...

                  (2) The battle system was Xbox-oriented. Planning engagements was now gone because of the new
                        element involving waves of enemies appearing, and because of the fast-paced nature of the battles,
                         playing with anything other than a console made the fighting irritating.

PC player here and IMHO the combat is fine, in fact I really don't see how it would be easier on a console, hotkeys and the ability to easliy activate abilities all seem to me to make it easier on PC. As for planning yes you still could, you could plan for waves after a while it became obvious where they were going to come from. On nightmare I still spend more of the time switchng between characters repositioning and activating abilities that I think are appropriate for the battle at that time.

sunderlance wrote...

For a PC gamer, and a loyal supporter of Bioware, I forced myself through this game. When we learn that characters have gotten married during the years we don't see we feel a disconnect. When all our achievements are honoured during the years we don't see we feel a disconnect. Every time we fight to see the outcome, we're told about it in past-tense. Both the past tense and the lack of visible outcome create the disconnect I'm talking about.

Who's 'we'? You don't speak for the community. Thats quite presumptious.

sunderlance wrote...

I'm a big fan of CD Projeckt and the Witcher stories, and in no way do I begrudge them for taking what some have argued to be the PC's only good exclusive game and bringing it to consoles. Personally, I'm happy for them to do that. Why shouldn't they be allowed to make more money for their work. The key thing is, that they have not marginalized their original customers to meet the needs of their newer ones.

Well there are some here who liked the orignal who don't like the changes they made for TW2.

sunderlance wrote...

Long story short; it's a Role Playing Game. We're supposed to associate with our characters and character's friends. We're supposed to feel like we are having to make serious choices on which everything hinges. And we're supposed to care about the plight of the world. If we don't, then it's not working right. And too much about Dragon Age 2 forces us to disconnect from it.

Not me.

Stoomkal wrote...

The entire community is on your side here - though you have already got the "Don't like - don't buy" line already...

The entire community? You're being presumptious as well.

Stoomkal wrote...

Yes, eat the brains, zombie...

God forbid people have different opinions.

Modifié par Morroian, 15 septembre 2011 - 03:03 .

[Stoomkal]

Ummm... no.

Just.

No.

DA2 was a disaster.

To the Fans...

To the developer...

To the bottom line...

questions?

[Andraste_Reborn]

I'm also a PC gamer who's been playing BioWare Games since 1998 and Baldur's Gate, and yet I love DA2 and think that the combat was a general improvement over DAO. I feel as connected to my various Hawkes as I do to my Wardens, sometimes more so.

What does this prove? Only that community opinion is not, as some people seem to think, uniform.

[Stoomkal]

I keep forgetting about the awesome reception that DA2 had...

Or its continually climbing sales in the chartz...

Or its handful of defenders... Hey... I think it is an "okay" game - for a glitchy piece of crap - but I think trying to say it was more *anything* than the first may be difficult...

It was more phail... does that count?

[Stoomkal]

Ummm... if by "individuality" you mean - disagreeing with people...

Then you can just disagree.

Of course, you are an *adult* by getting upset everytime somebody makes a counter-claim... right?

[Morroian]

Stoomkal wrote...

Of course, you are an *adult* by getting upset everytime somebody makes a counter-claim... right?

Oh the irony.

[Tommyspa]

I'm still waiting for the one true consensus on this game.

[Stoomkal]

Irony... I know the word... perhaps you are confusing the definition?

To disagree with someone is *conversation* or *debate*...

Yet, on the internet, it is *wrong* to disagree with someone... it makes you a bad person.

You, Morroian, are not even trying to make a point, or an argument - you are trying to cast personal aspersions to inflate your own credibility and make someone else's opinion smaller.

Considering that - you... do... know... what irony is, right?

EDIT:

Or am I being um... "presumptious"... umm...

N'ah... I will just leave that as an English teacher

Modifié par Stoomkal, 15 septembre 2011 - 04:06 .

[highcastle]

Oh hey look. It's this thread again.

To the OP: I'm a PC gamer too. And I prefer DA2 to DAO. So making a blanket statement like your opening sentence disavows the existence of those of us who liked this game better. If you didn't like it, that's fine. But then name your thread: "What will kill DA3 for Me." You are not the voice of a generation.

[csfteeeer]

highcastle wrote...

Oh hey look. It's this thread again.

 

Oh look, it's this comment again.

[highcastle]

csfteeeer wrote...

highcastle wrote...

Oh hey look. It's this thread again.

 

Oh look, it's this comment again.

Quoth Hawke: "This is why the cycle of revenge will never be broken."

[csfteeeer]

Andrastee wrote...

I'm also a PC gamer who's been playing BioWare Games since 1998 and Baldur's Gate, and yet I love DA2 and think that the combat was a general improvement over DAO. I feel as connected to my various Hawkes as I do to my Wardens, sometimes more so.

What does this prove? Only that community opinion is not, as some people seem to think, uniform.

i think(and don't quote me on this), is that the OP was Referring to a larger Community of PC gamers, because it's mostly the PC gamers who are upset about DA2.
PC Gamers will not be happy with middle fingers, and turning an originally PC oriented Series into a PC ported One, it's considered a middle finger, and when the PC community gets mad, Developers are gonna feel it HARD (ask Crytek, Microsoft, and EA).
Though Hopefully they will now remember that the PC community is not like the Console Community, and we are not to be screwed with.

[Zanallen]

csfteeeer wrote...

i think(and don't quote me on this), is that the OP was Referring to a larger Community of PC gamers, because it's mostly the PC gamers who are upset about DA2.
PC Gamers will not be happy with middle fingers, and turning an originally PC oriented Series into a PC ported One, it's considered a middle finger, and when the PC community gets mad, Developers are gonna feel it HARD (ask Crytek, Microsoft, and EA).
Though Hopefully they will now remember that the PC community is not like the Console Community, and we are not to be screwed with.

That's true. PC gamers do seem to have a greater sense of entitlement and they certainly seem to whine more than console gamers.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Zanallen wrote...

That's true. PC gamers do seem to have a greater sense of entitlement and they certainly seem to whine more than console gamers.

Really?  Imagine the response from console gamers if DA3 didn't support 640*480 screen resolutions.  Or if it didn't get a proper console UI, and instead saddled console players with a mouse pointer they hadf to move around with an analog stick.  Or if the commands were all mapped to different combinations of controller buttons, so that no one command ever did more than one thing (forcing you to depress several buttons simultaneously to activate most abilities).

That;s analogous to the deficiencies PC gamerrs currently see.  Thy get games with console UIs that don't really work on a PC.  They get single buttons or keys mapped to several commands all at once, with no way to uncouple them.  And they get core design decisions (like the length of dialogue options) determined by their ability to fit on a 640*480 screen, even though PC games haven't supported that resolution for 10 years.

The difference is that right now PC gamers aren't being served as well as console gamers are, so they complain louder.

Modifié par Sylvius the Mad, 15 septembre 2011 - 05:22 .

[csfteeeer]

Zanallen wrote...

That's true. PC gamers do seem to have a greater sense of entitlement and they certainly seem to whine more than console gamers.

oh hohoho.

That DEFINITELY wasn't what i meant.

Watch This Video. Then you'll know.

Modifié par csfteeeer, 15 septembre 2011 - 05:21 .

[Stoomkal]

Y'see... now I want to rant that us *console* gamerz get less support.

Gentleman, prepare your sense of entitlement, and step back ten paces...

On my word, whine!

I will totally pwn you in this game...

EDIT:

Added emoticons to enhance sarcasm...

Modifié par Stoomkal, 15 septembre 2011 - 05:23 .

[Zanallen]

csfteeeer wrote...

oh hohoho.

That DEFINITELY wasn't what i meant.

Watch This Video. Then you'll know.

Well that was a definate waste of my time. Was that guy supposed to represent the PC gamers who are not supposed to be messed with? Or is he a console gamer?

[Zanallen]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Really?  Imagine the response from console gamers if DA3 didn't support 640*480 screen resolutions.  Or if it didn't get a proper console UI, and instead saddled console players with a mouse pointer they hadf to move around with an analog stick.  Or if the commands were all mapped to different combinations of controller buttons, so that no one command ever did more than one thing (forcing you to depress several buttons simultaneously to activate most abilities).

That;s analogous to the deficiencies PC gamerrs currently see.  Thy get games with console UIs that don't really work on a PC.  They get single buttons or keys mapped to several commands all at once, with no way to uncouple them.  And they get core design decisions (like the length of dialogue options) determined by their ability to fit on a 640*480 screen, even though PC games haven't supported that resolution for 10 years.

The difference is that right now PC gamers aren't being served as well as console gamers are, so they complain louder.

And none of those points have anything to do with the topic at hand.

[csfteeeer]

Zanallen wrote...

csfteeeer wrote...

oh hohoho.

That DEFINITELY wasn't what i meant.

Watch This Video. Then you'll know.

Well that was a definate waste of my time. Was that guy supposed to represent the PC gamers who are not supposed to be messed with? Or is he a console gamer?

He is a PC centric Gamer, but he owes Consoles as Well.
What the Guy was Complaining is that Developers such as Capcom keep releasing Half Assed Versions of their Games.
Why?
Because CONSOLE Gamers (those games are exclusive to consoles) Keep Buying them, and the thing is, unlike the PC community, they will keep buying it.
PC gamers, would never accept this, and they stop buying them.
Example: You wanna know how many Copies has COD: Black Ops sold on Consoles? o 360, it sold FIFTEEN MILLION Copies, on PS3, it sold TWELVE MILLION copies.
and you wanna know how many copies has it sold on PC? IT HAS NOT EVEN REACHED A MILLION.