276 réponses à ce sujet

[MorrigansLove]

Persephone wrote...

bEVEsthda wrote...

Persephone wrote...

What will kill DA3 for PC Gamers?

A monster chewing on gaming discs with Bioware logos.

Wait, this is another "More DAO, DAII kills kittens!" drama? Mixed with a nice PC "adults" vs. "console kiddies" brawl?

What will kill DAIII? Threads like this.

*Bows out*

And you considered you wanted to make that post because...?

Because I wanted to and I was bored. Plain and simple. 

You're so sad.

[bEVEsthda]

MorrigansLove wrote...

You're so sad.

(I suppose I should fight my urge to moderate, harder, but...)
As I would think Persephone would have realized the matter the first time, this comment seem to fall into the cathegory "unneeded". Combine this with Epler's recommendation: "Be excellent to each other" and an old saying: "If you have nothing nice to say, you better think very hard about why you should."

Modifié par bEVEsthda, 17 septembre 2011 - 10:55 .

[Adrian68b]

Sharn01, your comment is excellent and to the point. At an emotional level (emotional involvement) I felt the same hopelessness. Realistically, the single decisive character in the entire Dragon Age saga so far is Flemeth. Just remember her actions since The Stolen Throne: saving Maric AND Loghain; saving the Wardens; finally saving Hawke. Also, remember her prescient ability, AND her criptical dialogues with the saved heroes. I constantly wondered what REALLY is Flemeth, and what are her REAL plans concerning Thedas.
On the other hand, there are consequences and consequences. As Flemeth put in: "It is fate or chance. I could never decide". For instance, Meredith actions were tyrannical long before Hawke first arrival in the city. But very likely without Hawke, Meredith would never aquire the idol (presumably Bartrand and Varric would have died trying to reach it - similar to that idiot dwarf boy in Act 2). In this, as in other quest, Hawke involvement was unintentional. Still, the consequences of his involvement were dramatic.
During the final quest, Hawke's involvement IS decisive for the outcome (I sided with the mages). Why? Only because of his status as the Champion. Just remember the huge Hawke statue in the Docs. According to DA2 lore, the status of a Champions in the Free Marches is very similar to a dwarf Paragon. And Hawke IS the only living Champion in the Free Marches.
Also, according to Chantry lore, the RoA was carried out about 70 times in the past. With no rebellion afterwards. What was the key difference in Kirkwall this time ? The involvement of A Champion (read: a Paragon).
Of course, at a physical level, Meredith, Orsino Elthina would have died with or without Hawke. Possibly, also the mages would have rebelled later, without any idol influence over Meredith. BUT, in my opinion, with a very different reaction across Thedas.
So, as I said previously, not Hawke's actions were decisive, but his reputation.
In term of role-playing however (precisely emotional feeling) that's a completely different story. I was as frustrated as you at the end of the game, thinking in exactly the same way. The later comprehension of the events doesn't change that feeling. For me, the first playing of a RPG is always the essential one.
But I strongly suspect that Bioware consciously wanted to offer that. Long ago, I felt the same after finishing Monkey Island 2. And, in the end it wasn't bad at all. Because of this, I still consider MI2 ending one of the best ever.

[nightcobra]

Adrian68b wrote...

Just remember the huge Hawke statue in the Docs.

the one that is always male, wears a heavy armor and is wielding a sword with a flaming blade symbolizing the flaming sword of andraste?

always thought that was the templars way of taking the credit for hawke's work   

Modifié par nightcobra8928, 17 septembre 2011 - 11:29 .

[Adrian68b]

Not at all. It has the head of the Arishok at his feet. I think it was raised there because of the vicinity of the qunari compound.
DAO ending was also non-traditional. The hero could reject Morrighan and became a martyr. Even accepting her offer is rather ambivalent, and not a traditional happy ending. I always accepted the offer, hoping for a real conclusion concerning Morrighan's child.
Maybe it's just me, but I rate the two dialogues with Flemeth the best part in DA2. Flemeth is just incredible in both. I replayed those dialogues several times, more than anything else in DA2. Just remember her answer about Morrighan - meaning a long planning ahead by Flemeth. Does she also saw the coming of the fourth Blight ? Morrighan must be the same age as Alistair. Was Flemeth already preparing Morrighan before the events from The Calling ?

[Adrian68b]

Also, Flemeth in not behaving at all like an abomination (Morrighan's behavior was more selfish). From my part, if any of these questions concerning Flemeth will be answered in DA3 (even in part), that will be a nice premise for a good story.

[nightcobra]

my guess is that flemmeth is also one of the tevinter magisters that entered the golden city but was fortunate enough to transfer her soul to another body before the taint settled in, much like how coripheus apparently transfers himself to either larius or janeka.

flemmeth also apparently has a part of herself inside sandal making him able to use magic and due also to these scenes






that's my theory at least

[Adrian68b]

Thank you very much for sharing this, Nightcobra8928!. I will look for the first Sandal scene in my next play.
Also, I liked Warric naming Anders "Blondie" - a clear sign of connection with Sergio Leone's The Good, The Bad And The Ugly (one of the best entertainment movie of all time, in my opinion). Stories with hidden key characters, like Flemeth and Sandal are just great.
It is very likely that David Gaider is still deciding about Flemeth and possibly also Sandal.

[Adrian68b]

As such, is difficult to guess their involvement in DA3 and future games. But for me it's obvious that Flemeth is gradually emerging as the key character of the DA universe (so far).

[Adrian68b]

Isabela runs off to get the Tome of Koslun herself
Hawke never existed so she has no reason to not run away
Arishok gets butthurt
No Hawke to stop the Arishok
Bye-bye Kirkwall

Just so. My point is that as long as players are concerned about in-game outcomes, that means they are emotionally involved. It's just as in real life. The outcomes of our actions are not always those desired (or hoped).
In my opinion, Bioware tried constantly to offer more imersion whith each new game  (whith the exception of NWN). Just remember some of the silly quests from BG1 or BG2. Of course, not every trial was a succes.
Let's be fair, the combat system used previously was less involving (a lot of defaut actions). I was more detached in combat in BG or IWD as I ever was in DAO or DA2.
The depht of companions involvement in actions also increased. For instance Anders devices his Master Plan about destroying the Chantry after some dialogue (in the Gallows, I think).
As for the ninja and paratrooper behavior of the enemies, I can accept that as part of the story. (We actually are playing not the "real" battles, but the ones told by Warric - and he's a compulsive liar).

[Giubba]

Sharn01 wrote...

Adrian68b wrote...

In short, Hawke is just a catalyst. But the essential one.

I have to disagree, I cant think of a single major plot point that would not play out exactly the same way without Hawke.  I am not referring to Hawke in specific either, I am referring to everything that Hawke did during the game had no effect on the over all plot.

In the 10 years span Anders would be imprisoned/killed/made tranquil or simply left kirkwall without the aid of all the character that Hawke presence bound togheter.

Just one example

[MKDAWUSS]

nightcobra8928 wrote...

Adrian68b wrote...

Just remember the huge Hawke statue in the Docs.

the one that is always male, wears a heavy armor and is wielding a sword with a flaming blade symbolizing the flaming sword of andraste?

always thought that was the templars way of taking the credit for hawke's work   

I thought that statue was an eyesore and arrogant.

[nightcobra]

i hope that in DA3 our character can influence entire countries with his actions, much like how the warden gets to decide the fate of orzammar by picking it's king or the coronation decision in the landsmeet, in da2 you get lots of choice but they mostly affect hawke as a character rather than the world around him/her. i long for a chance to seize real power and decide the fate of nearby countries, if it's in orlais i'd love to raise in status maybe even becoming emperor/empress or the general of their forces. the court quests in awakenings were a few of my favorites, i'd love to excert power like that.

[Reno_Tarshil]

MKDAWUSS wrote...

nightcobra8928 wrote...

Adrian68b wrote...

Just remember the huge Hawke statue in the Docs.

the one that is always male, wears a heavy armor and is wielding a sword with a flaming blade symbolizing the flaming sword of andraste?

always thought that was the templars way of taking the credit for hawke's work   

I thought that statue was an eyesore and arrogant.

The Statue always reminded me of Meredith

[Maconbar]

nightcobra8928 wrote...

i hope that in DA3 our character can influence entire countries with his actions, much like how the warden gets to decide the fate of orzammar by picking it's king or the coronation decision in the landsmeet, in da2 you get lots of choice but they mostly affect hawke as a character rather than the world around him/her. i long for a chance to seize real power and decide the fate of nearby countries, if it's in orlais i'd love to raise in status maybe even becoming emperor/empress or the general of their forces. the court quests in awakenings were a few of my favorites, i'd love to excert power like that.

But does DA:O, other than in slides, show many of the effects of these choices? The main one that I can recall is the werewolf army. I would love to decide the fate of coutnries, as you put it, but I want more than just an epilogue mention.

The main choice in DA:O was DR/US. Will this choice matter in DA:3? I hope it does but if it doesn't than I will believe that our choices in both DA:O and DA:2 were close to irrelevant.

[nightcobra]

Maconbar wrote...

nightcobra8928 wrote...

i hope that in DA3 our character can influence entire countries with his actions, much like how the warden gets to decide the fate of orzammar by picking it's king or the coronation decision in the landsmeet, in da2 you get lots of choice but they mostly affect hawke as a character rather than the world around him/her. i long for a chance to seize real power and decide the fate of nearby countries, if it's in orlais i'd love to raise in status maybe even becoming emperor/empress or the general of their forces. the court quests in awakenings were a few of my favorites, i'd love to excert power like that.

But does DA:O, other than in slides, show many of the effects of these choices? The main one that I can recall is the werewolf army. I would love to decide the fate of coutnries, as you put it, but I want more than just an epilogue mention.

The main choice in DA:O was DR/US. Will this choice matter in DA:3? I hope it does but if it doesn't than I will believe that our choices in both DA:O and DA:2 were close to irrelevant.

that's what i'm hoping, a mix of both DA2 and DAO in which choices actually decide the world's destiny while having them shown in the game rather than slides.

Modifié par nightcobra8928, 17 septembre 2011 - 02:25 .

[Adrian68b]

Me too, nightcobra. In DA2 Bioware tried another kind of hero. Was it a good or a bad choice?
I sincerely don't know. It was different, and I congratulate them for trying to bring something new in their game. Just think about a DA2 very similar with DAO.
I hope for a DA3 with even deeper companion interactions and more meaningful side quests. (ex. hidden martial arts trainers willing to train you, master craftsmen able to create and alter personalized weapons and armor). And also a more open interaction with powerful factions, with decisive consequences.

[nightcobra]

Adrian68b wrote...

Me too, nightcobra. In DA2 Bioware tried another kind of hero. Was it a good or a bad choice?
I sincerely don't know. It was different, and I congratulate them for trying to bring something new in their game. Just think about a DA2 very similar with DAO.
I hope for a DA3 with even deeper companion interactions and more meaningful side quests. (ex. hidden martial arts trainers willing to train you, master craftsmen able to create and alter personalized weapons and armor). And also a more open interaction with powerful factions, with decisive consequences.

and i'd also love a return of some specializations. like the spirit warrior after seeing the visual effect of spirit damage attacks in DA2 i'd love if spirit warriors got to look something like this.

http://images.wikia....36/NDT_DMC4.jpg

the color, transparency and claw design look quite similar 

[Adrian68b]

"I think this is one of the biggest problems I had with DA2. This kind of storytelling, while others might enjoy it, is clearly not my cup of tea. If I play a RPG I want my decisions to have an impact I can see and experience - if not immediately then at least at the end of the game. That's partially what defines a RPG for me, why I play them. If I just want a story to be told without being able to actually change something, I'll go and read a book or watch a movie."


But, you can (well, sort of) even in DA2. For instance, in the confrontation scene at the beginning of Act 3 I played a more forceful Hawke (proposing himself as the next viscount). After the scene, I talked a bit with the nobles still in the area, and got favorable comments.

[upsettingshorts]

What I learned from this thread:

An RPG is defined by having plot flags, being able to set them, and a confirmation that you have indeed done so by the end of the game.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 17 septembre 2011 - 03:13 .

[Adrian68b]

But the real problem is indeed the lack of a meaningful scene at the end of the game. Well, the last one involving Warric, Cassandra and Leliana is good, but not what I expected. Also, being myself an avid reader I understand your point perfectly. Bioware missed a lot by omitting to create at least several scenes concerning Hawke's actions (ex. reactions between the Arishok and his staff concerning Hawke, or between Meredith and Cullen, reactions in Kirkwall after the defeat of both the Arishok and Meredith...).

[Adrian68b]

The scene after Leandra's death was good and powerful. Sadly, it was the only one in the entire game (well, except the one after Legacy).

[Dragoonlordz]

PresidentCowboy wrote...

Sharn01 wrote...

Adrian68b wrote...

In short, Hawke is just a catalyst. But the essential one.

I have to disagree, I cant think of a single major plot point that would not play out exactly the same way without Hawke.  I am not referring to Hawke in specific either, I am referring to everything that Hawke did during the game had no effect on the over all plot.

• Isabela runs off to get the Tome of Koslun herself
• Hawke never existed so she has no reason to not run away
• Arishok gets butthurt
• No Hawke to stop the Arishok
• Bye-bye Kirkwall

Hawke is not any stronger than any other companion he runs around with, any one of them could of stopped the Arishok. It's a party based game, your party is as strong as the protagnaist else they wouldn't take part in the combat in the first place. Merrill could of kicked Arishoks butt just as easily as Hawke. As for last part I assume you have played the game, Kirkwall ends up that way regardless. With the aspect of choice / consequence and especially branching instead of bottlenecking it was poor title / game with regards to this aspect and has been admitted as much on Biowares end how C+C and branching was not done very well and will try to improve on next time.

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 17 septembre 2011 - 03:37 .