276 réponses à ce sujet

[Adrian68b]

"An RPG is defined by having plot flags, being able to set them, and a confirmation that you have indeed done so by the end of the game."


Precisely. But also Bioware's RPGs are combat-oriented. As such, spending about 80% of the playing time in meaningless fighting is bad. For instance, I cleared every gang of thugs diring the game. With no reaction from the citizens. Even Aveline, as captain of the guard (and presumably directly concerned AND in fact constant member of the team has no comment).

[upsettingshorts]

I was being sarcastic:

Upsettingshorts wrote...

What I learned from this thread:

An RPG is defined by having plot flags, being able to set them, and a confirmation that you have indeed done so by the end of the game.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 17 septembre 2011 - 03:40 .

[Adrian68b]

Maybe, but it was in fact spot on. As simple as it sounds. Every human being (in fact every living being) is acting as such. Otherwise, it's like interacting with an autistic companion.

[upsettingshorts]

I actually disagree with it completely. It's certainly spot on that plenty of people do seem to think that way.

But I'm more concerned with playing my character - and having it act in the way I want to, something DA2 does far better than DAO - than whether or not I get a paragraph at the end of the game describing the consequences of an action I'll never actually be able to see.

[Adrian68b]

"Hawke is not any stronger than any other companion he runs around with, any one of them could of stopped the Arishok. It's a party based game, your party is as strong as the protagnaist else they wouldn't take part in the combat in the first place. Merrill could of kicked Arishoks butt just as easily as Hawke. As for last part I assume you have played the game, Kirkwall ends up that way regardless. With the aspect of choice / consequence and especially branching instead of bottlenecking it was poor title / game with regards to this aspect and has been admitted as much on Biowares end how C+C and branching was not done very well and will try to improve on next time."

It's right. My comment was only about the scale (magnitude) of effects concerning Hawke's actions not about in-game decision three. That was clearly broken. I remember talking by accident with Moira (the templar) AFTER Leandra's death and she promised me help in searching her.

[upsettingshorts]

Are you really citing an obvious scripting bug as evidence of a flaw in the writing approach?

[Adrian68b]

"But I'm more concerned with playing my character - and having it act in the way I want to, something DA2 does far better than DAO - than whether or not I get a paragraph at the end of the game describing the consequences of an action I'll never actually be able to see."

It's clearly a misunderstanding. I'm not talking about an explicit, manifest reaction specially devised for each of my character's exploits. My comment was about game environment responsiveness.
Let me show this with an example: at the beginning of Act 3 I visited Lirenne's shop. She reacted favorably and offered far better prices.

[Cutlasskiwi]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

I actually disagree with it completely. It's certainly spot on that plenty of people do seem to think that way.

But I'm more concerned with playing my character - and having it act in the way I want to, something DA2 does far better than DAO - than whether or not I get a paragraph at the end of the game describing the consequences of an action I'll never actually be able to see.

This I agree with. Because of this Hawke felt like a real character and the Warden felt more like an avatar to be used to comunicate with the world. (My opinion of course)

[DamnThoseDisplayNames]

With you OP, though I think your perception of deceitful trailer was excessive. It's a simple advertising act, publishers do it all the time. Show some cool stuff or best parts of the game, hiding real stuff, so the s*** would sell. Of course it hurts more when your favorite company does that instead of some other, but I don't believe guys who written dialogue or draw character design have any to do with it. Just marketing guys trying to do their job best, can't blame them for it.

[DamnThoseDisplayNames]

This I agree with. Because of this Hawke felt like a real character and the Warden felt more like an avatar to be used to comunicate with the world. (My opinion of course)

Your opinion is flawed. A main character in RPG IS an avatar for the player. For the most part, everything else belongs into Adventure game genre, where instead playing a character, we just "help" already existing character to solve various problems.

Modifié par DamnThoseDisplayNames, 17 septembre 2011 - 04:21 .

[Adrian68b]

"This I agree with. Because of this Hawke felt like a real character and the Warden felt more like an avatar to be used to comunicate with the world. (My opinion of course)"

Also my opinion. Having personal ties (ex. family, companions, and even enemies) better designed and in development helped a lot in DA2. And also, better dialog AND quest choices.

[NedPepper]

Dragoonlordz wrote...

PresidentCowboy wrote...

Sharn01 wrote...

Adrian68b wrote...

In short, Hawke is just a catalyst. But the essential one.

I have to disagree, I cant think of a single major plot point that would not play out exactly the same way without Hawke.  I am not referring to Hawke in specific either, I am referring to everything that Hawke did during the game had no effect on the over all plot.

• Isabela runs off to get the Tome of Koslun herself
• Hawke never existed so she has no reason to not run away
  
• Arishok gets butthurt
• No Hawke to stop the ArishokBye-bye Kirkwall

Hawke is not any stronger than any other companion he runs around with, any one of them could of stopped the Arishok. It's a party based game, your party is as strong as the protagnaist else they wouldn't take part in the combat in the first place. Merrill could of kicked Arishoks butt just as easily as Hawke. As for last part I assume you have played the game, Kirkwall ends up that way regardless. With the aspect of choice / consequence and especially branching instead of bottlenecking it was poor title / game with regards to this aspect and has been admitted as much on Biowares end how C+C and branching was not done very well and will try to improve on next time.

Merrill would have never been in a position to be near the Arishok without Hawke.  Fenris would have probably left Kirkwall in Act One if not for Hawke.  Aveline would have never gotten into the city without Hawke.  Almost all of your companions thrive in Kirkwall (with the exception of Varric) because of Hawke.  Someone already mentioned Anders.

So, if there's no Hawke, Kirkwall is a very different place.  The Arishok probably kills all the nobles and turns Kirkwall into a Qunari city and Meridith and the mage/templar issue probably becomes a case where the mages are killed without a voice.  If Hawke never gets off the boat from Ferelden,  Kirkwall wouldn't have lasted as long as it did.  Whether Hawke made it better or worse is a matter of perspective.

[Adrian68b]

"So, if there's no Hawke, Kirkwall is a very different place. The Arishok probably kills all the nobles and turns Kirkwall into a Qunari city and Meridith and the mage/templar issue probably becomes a case where the mages are killed without a voice. If Hawke never gets off the boat from Ferelden, Kirkwall wouldn't have lasted as long as it did. Whether Hawke made it better or worse is a matter of perspective."

Total agreement. And a likely final outcome. Hawke is not a superhero, but more or less an ordinary human in the right place in the right time. The most common case in history.

[JosephCurwen]

Dragon Age 2 already killed Dragon Age 3 for PC gamers.

[upsettingshorts]

DamnThoseDisplayNames wrote...

This I agree with. Because of this Hawke felt like a real character and the Warden felt more like an avatar to be used to comunicate with the world. (My opinion of course)

Your opinion is flawed. A main character in RPG IS an avatar for the player. For the most part, everything else belongs into Adventure game genre, where instead playing a character, we just "help" already existing character to solve various problems.

Actually that only applies for those who play self-inserts.  Not everyone does, in fact, many who come from the so-called "old school" including many PC gamers would probably say that playing in such a way, while valid, is not "roleplaying."

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 17 septembre 2011 - 04:39 .

[JosephCurwen]

PresidentCowboy wrote...

JosephCurwen wrote...

Dragon Age 2 already killed Dragon Age 3 for PC gamers.

PC gamers who dislike good games, sure

  Best laugh I've had all day!

[DamnThoseDisplayNames]

Actually that only applies for those who play self-inserts. Not everyone does, in fact, many who come from the so-called "old school" including many PC gamers would probably say that playing in such a way, while valid, is not "roleplaying."

Change it to "A main character in RPG IS an avatar for the player's character".. eh, that sounds really clumsy, but whatever. As about self-inserts.. there are many ways of roleplay. Still, tabletopers and larpers create their *own* characters, their own roles in the game. It's a big part of creative process involving you into RPG.

Modifié par DamnThoseDisplayNames, 17 septembre 2011 - 04:43 .

[upsettingshorts]

The way you play, sure.

That the Warden was more capable of being an avatar than a character, and Hawke was more capable of being a character than an avatar is not a view I would dispute.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 17 septembre 2011 - 04:48 .

[Sylvius the Mad]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

The way you play, sure.

That the Warden was more capable of being an avatar than a character, and Hawke was more capable of being a character than an avatar is not a view I would dispute.

I'll grant that, but the Warden was also more capable of being YOUR character than Hawke was, because Hawke's speech and behaviour wasn't controlled by you.

[Gunderic]

Complistic wrote...

No self respecting pc gamer should even be considering picking up DA3 before it gets thoroughly reviewed.

This. Customers shouldn't even consider picking up DA3 before it gets reviewed, actually.

And you can't say your voice carries as much weight (about the genre as a whole) as those who've played Western RPG's on the PC at one point in time, if you're a console-only player. PC players are more familiar with Western RPG's.

[upsettingshorts]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

I'll grant that, but the Warden was also more capable of being YOUR character than Hawke was, because Hawke's speech and behaviour wasn't controlled by you.

As In Exile often points out, that depends on what kind of character you want Hawke or the Warden to be. 

[Jamesnew2]

Bioware has always been good to pc players in my mind but if they ever pull a Rockstar and produce a game thats exclusive to consoles e.g red dead redemption then i will be thoroughly disapointed and would probably reduce my love for the company however until then it should be alright however i do share the OP worry bout the control system but what bugs me most is the lack of auto attack lawl..

[Gunderic]

Zanallen wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

They have to do with your response to the topic at hand.

Not really, considering my post was a direct response to the post I quoted. The post which claimed that PC gamers are to be feared 'cause they take no guff.

I don't know about 'feared', but they sure tore DA2 apart. :innocent:

[Cutlasskiwi]

DamnThoseDisplayNames wrote...

This I agree with. Because of this Hawke felt like a real character and the Warden felt more like an avatar to be used to comunicate with the world. (My opinion of course)

Your opinion is flawed. A main character in RPG IS an avatar for the player. For the most part, everything else belongs into Adventure game genre, where instead playing a character, we just "help" already existing character to solve various problems.

No, my opinion is not flawed, I just play differently than you do. Like Uppsettingshorts said, that works great if you're playing self-inserts but it's not something I like to do.