351 réponses à ce sujet

[111987]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

111987 wrote...


Game-designers do not deliberately choose worst combat mechanics when better mechanics are just as easily implemented.

Not deliberately, no, but they might implement a suboptimal solution because they misidentified the standards by which the mechanic should be judged.

The implication here being that the ammo mechanic was suboptimal; I would disagree with that. I've always liked ammo; probably from my Resident Evil days, where ammo was like finding water in a desert.

But if you think the hybrid or overheat method is better, by all means, continue thinking that.

[Sylvius the Mad]

111987 wrote...

The implication here being that the ammo mechanic was suboptimal; I would disagree with that. I've always liked ammo; probably from my Resident Evil days, where ammo was like finding water in a desert.

But if you think the hybrid or overheat method is better, by all means, continue thinking that.

I think an ammo mechanic that didn't force everyone to play the game in the same way would be better.

Either have universal ammo that works for all weapons, or increase the carry capacity for ammo without changing the total amount of ammo available.

[KOS-MOS56]

Garrus "You know me, I love to savor that last shot before popping the heat sink"

And that is why the heat sink clip was implemented.

[Someone With Mass]

KOS-MOS56 wrote...

Garrus "You know me, I love to savor that last shot before popping the heat sink"

And that is why the heat sink clip was implemented.

Amen.

[Aradace]

Someone With Mass wrote...

KOS-MOS56 wrote...

Garrus "You know me, I love to savor that last shot before popping the heat sink"

And that is why the heat sink clip was implemented.

Amen.

Heat Sink Clips...So much fight, they're Garrus Vakarian approved.

[Gatt9]

111987 wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

111987 wrote...


Game-designers do not deliberately choose worst combat mechanics when better mechanics are just as easily implemented.

Not deliberately, no, but they might implement a suboptimal solution because they misidentified the standards by which the mechanic should be judged.

The implication here being that the ammo mechanic was suboptimal; I would disagree with that. I've always liked ammo; probably from my Resident Evil days, where ammo was like finding water in a desert.

But if you think the hybrid or overheat method is better, by all means, continue thinking that.

Here's the thing though...

...You label overheat as sub-optimal,  and clips as optimal,  you then touch on why you like them,  the limited ammo found in old Shooter that forced you to make concsious choices about when to fire and how much.

ME2's system doesn't do that. 

ME2's system is one such that everyone drops thermal clips no matter how little sense it makes for them to have them(Why are collectors dropping thermal clips they don't use?),  clips litter the landscape (Even in places where there's no logical reason for them to be),  and they fit in all guns so you don't need to make choices based on ammo availability.

In short,  they're even less logical than overheating might be.  They fail to perform the function that ammo was created to perform,  forcing you to make careful choices on use and which weapon to use.  They're literally everywhere,  everything drops them left and right.  The only two times I ever had to switch a weapon because I ran out of ammo was the Thresher Maw and the quest with the mine filled with the zombies. 

So basically,  they don't really do anything.  Which isn't strictly ME2's fault,  it's a trend in FPS's today just like insta-regenerating,  so that people don't even have to make the simplest of choices today.  Which is ironic,  considering that the same people who accept thermal clips and insta-regeneration will be the first ones to complain about loot being "Unrealistic".

[Epic777]

Gatt9 wrote...

111987 wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

111987 wrote...


Game-designers do not deliberately choose worst combat mechanics when better mechanics are just as easily implemented.

Not deliberately, no, but they might implement a suboptimal solution because they misidentified the standards by which the mechanic should be judged.

The implication here being that the ammo mechanic was suboptimal; I would disagree with that. I've always liked ammo; probably from my Resident Evil days, where ammo was like finding water in a desert.

But if you think the hybrid or overheat method is better, by all means, continue thinking that.

Here's the thing though...

...You label overheat as sub-optimal,  and clips as optimal,  you then touch on why you like them,  the limited ammo found in old Shooter that forced you to make concsious choices about when to fire and how much.

ME2's system doesn't do that. 

ME2's system is one such that everyone drops thermal clips no matter how little sense it makes for them to have them(Why are collectors dropping thermal clips they don't use?),  clips litter the landscape (Even in places where there's no logical reason for them to be),  and they fit in all guns so you don't need to make choices based on ammo availability.

In short,  they're even less logical than overheating might be.  They fail to perform the function that ammo was created to perform,  forcing you to make careful choices on use and which weapon to use.  They're literally everywhere,  everything drops them left and right.  The only two times I ever had to switch a weapon because I ran out of ammo was the Thresher Maw and the quest with the mine filled with the zombies. 

So basically,  they don't really do anything.  Which isn't strictly ME2's fault,  it's a trend in FPS's today just like insta-regenerating,  so that people don't even have to make the simplest of choices today.  Which is ironic,  considering that the same people who accept thermal clips and insta-regeneration will be the first ones to complain about loot being "Unrealistic".

ME1 had auto regen

[111987]

Gatt9 wrote...

111987 wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

111987 wrote...


Game-designers do not deliberately choose worst combat mechanics when better mechanics are just as easily implemented.

Not deliberately, no, but they might implement a suboptimal solution because they misidentified the standards by which the mechanic should be judged.

The implication here being that the ammo mechanic was suboptimal; I would disagree with that. I've always liked ammo; probably from my Resident Evil days, where ammo was like finding water in a desert.

But if you think the hybrid or overheat method is better, by all means, continue thinking that.

Here's the thing though...

...You label overheat as sub-optimal,  and clips as optimal,  you then touch on why you like them,  the limited ammo found in old Shooter that forced you to make concsious choices about when to fire and how much.

ME2's system doesn't do that. 

ME2's system is one such that everyone drops thermal clips no matter how little sense it makes for them to have them(Why are collectors dropping thermal clips they don't use?),  clips litter the landscape (Even in places where there's no logical reason for them to be),  and they fit in all guns so you don't need to make choices based on ammo availability.

In short,  they're even less logical than overheating might be.  They fail to perform the function that ammo was created to perform,  forcing you to make careful choices on use and which weapon to use.  They're literally everywhere,  everything drops them left and right.  The only two times I ever had to switch a weapon because I ran out of ammo was the Thresher Maw and the quest with the mine filled with the zombies. 

So basically,  they don't really do anything.  Which isn't strictly ME2's fault,  it's a trend in FPS's today just like insta-regenerating,  so that people don't even have to make the simplest of choices today.  Which is ironic,  considering that the same people who accept thermal clips and insta-regeneration will be the first ones to complain about loot being "Unrealistic".

I defintley agree that modern FPS's make finding ammo too easy. I didn't mean to say that ME2 was like a Resident Evil game in the sense that you had VERY limited ammo, but that unlike in an overheat system, you actually do have a finite amount of bullets, so it creates the illusion of needing to be conservative/accurate. It's just a personal preference though.

[The Spamming Troll]

familiarity. thats the biggest reason why.

at least i would hope thats the reason why TCs are in ME2 and and ME3. not because the devs couldnt herp derp their way through an overheating mechanic for the weapons.

[Someone With Mass]

jreezy wrote...

Epic777 wrote...
ME1 had auto regen

But it was much slower.

While the enemy health regeneration knew no bounds.

[Epic777]

jreezy wrote...

Epic777 wrote...
ME1 had auto regen

But it was much slower.

But in ME1 the player had more protections, immunity and barrier, shield boost. The battlefield is alot slower. Your shields take more of a beating before going down. insanity me2 your shields can take.....3 shots before depleting?

Modifié par Epic777, 17 septembre 2011 - 12:11 .

[Epic777]

Someone With Mass wrote...

jreezy wrote...

Epic777 wrote...
ME1 had auto regen

But it was much slower.

While the enemy health regeneration knew no bounds.

I knew something was up with that

[Bluko]

Brenon Holmes wrote...

morrie23 wrote...

He probably means having a single large pool of TCs that all weapons draw from, rather than each weapon having it's own small pool which once depleted cannot be refilled by TCs from any of your other guns.

Also, crunching already? I feel for you!

Ah, if that's the case... then no. It's the same as in ME2. Each weapon has its own pool. :happy:

That's a tad disheartening. If there was one change I was hoping to see with TCs it'd be that they would share the same supply.

I'm pretty sure the reason each weapon has it's own pool is for "balance" reasons. All things considered I think it probably would have been easier to balance weapons if the munition supply for each was fixed. Then you really only need concern yourself with DPS/Potential DPS and munition usage. Some would say swapping weapons could make that problematic...

Well yes if you continue to use the herp derp individual bullet count. (I'm rather annoyed BF3 is doing this now as I get to look forward to CoD-esque Reloading in that as well...)

If there's one thing I must insist (or beg it seems these days) it's that you make clips function by clip and not individual bullet count. So something like this:


*I added 33 Clips as I was intending to make this image a case for a universal thermal clip supply. Obviously if you have individual pools this would be too much.

In essence whenever you reload you lose all the remainder of shots with the loaded clip as there is no way individual shots can or should be preserved from Thermal Clips as they ejected are onto the ground afterwards. It's really quite silly you allow this.

Also I would argue that by implementing such you would make the game a much deeper and or challenging experience. (But I suppose that would make it too hard then right?) You would actually have to think when you reload your gun. Right now in ME2 you're basically free to reload your weapon whenever you're not actively firing and given that most of combat is spent behind cover it makes the process of reloading almost completely trivial. If you guys were serious about adding "tension" you would make reloading work via clip, not by shot count. In this sense you do actually have to think about preserving ammunition. With ME2 you either have more then enough ammuntion or you don't. And otherwise the only thing this does is give you an incentive to not miss, which is kind of no-brainer cause if you do enemies will eventually kill you. (And this was just as true in ME1as enemies were very aggressive... you certainly couldn't afford to shoot bullet patterns into the walls.)

In conventional modern shooters it's forgiveable that there's individual bullet count as realistically you can add more bullets to a magazine or clip. It's enough of a minor detail that it can generally be overlooked. Though frankly I consider it very primitive as Castle Wolfenstein and the old FPS games operated the same way. The only innovation most current shooters have is that rather then ammo pool of 900 something bullets you now press a button to refill a smaller pool of 30 out of 900.

But this sort of thing has no place in Mass Effect. At least not with the way you guys chose to add ammuntion. I believe I remember a few Devs stating that TCs were implemented to make players swap weapons more then anything else. And how did ME1's overheating not accomplish this? Again the issues with ME1 in this regard could (and should IMO) have been rectified in ME2.


Also if you are keeping the individual ammo pools could players at least be given some option to which weapons get resupplied first? Why in the heck would Shepard restock his/her TC supply for a Sniper Rifle when Husks are literally swarming you and you need as many clips as possible for the Shotgun? Perhaps this could be resolved by having TCs only resupplying the equipped weapon? (Of course then everyone really hate picking up Thermal Clips.)

See this is the hole you dig yourself into by adding "ammo". Nevermind the fact that allies and enemies still have unlimited ammunition themselves. Which is basically another excuse for poor A.I. At least the playing field in ME1 was even. I don't much care for the A.I. having the ability to "cheat".

Modifié par Bluko, 17 septembre 2011 - 12:28 .

[Admoniter]

Bluko wrote...

Brenon Holmes wrote...

morrie23 wrote...

He probably means having a single large pool of TCs that all weapons draw from, rather than each weapon having it's own small pool which once depleted cannot be refilled by TCs from any of your other guns.

Also, crunching already? I feel for you!

Ah, if that's the case... then no. It's the same as in ME2. Each weapon has its own pool. :happy:

That's a tad disheartening. If there was one change I was hoping to see with TCs it'd be that they would share the same supply.

I'm pretty sure the reason each weapon has it's own pool is for "balance" reasons. All things considered I think it probably would have been easier to balance weapons if the munition supply for each was fixed. Then you really only need concern yourself with DPS/Potential DPS and munition usage. Some would say swapping weapons could make that problematic...

Well yes if you continue to use the herp derp individual bullet count. (I'm rather annoyed BF3 is doing this now as I get to look forward to CoD-esque Reloading in that as well...)

If there's one thing I must insist (or beg it seems these days) it's that you make clips function by clip and not individual bullet count. So something like this:


*I added 33 Clips as I was intending to make this image a case for a universal thermal clip supply. Obviously if you have individual pools this would be too much.

In essence whenever you reload you lose all the remainder of shots with the loaded clip as there is no way individual shots can or should be preserved from Thermal Clips as they ejected are onto the ground afterwards. It's really quite silly you allow this.

Also I would argue that by implementing such you would make the game a much deeper and or challenging experience. (But I suppose that would make it too hard then right?) You would actually have to think when you reload your gun. Right now in ME2 you're basically free to reload your weapon whenever you're not actively firing and given that most of combat is spent behind cover it makes the process of reloading almost completely trivial. If you guys were serious about adding "tension" you would make reloading work via clip, not by shot count. In this sense you do actually have to think about preserving ammunition. With ME2 you either have more then enough ammuntion or you don't. And otherwise the only thing this does is give you an incentive to not miss, which is kind of no-brainer cause if you do enemies will eventually kill you. (And this was just as true in ME1as enemies were very aggressive... you certainly couldn't afford to shoot bullet patterns into the walls.)

In conventional modern shooters it's forgiveable that there's individual bullet count as realistically you can add more bullets to a magazine or clip. It's enough of a minor detail that it can generally be overlooked. Though frankly I consider it very primitive as Castle Wolfenstein and the old FPS games operated the same way. The only innovation most current shooters have is that rather then ammo pool of 900 something bullets you now press a button to refill a smaller pool of 30 out of 900.

But this sort of thing has no place in Mass Effect. At least not with the way you guys chose to add ammuntion. I believe I remember a few Devs stating that TCs were implemented to make players swap weapons more then anything else. And how did ME1's overheating not accomplish this? Again the issues with ME1 in this regard could (and should IMO) have been rectified in ME2.


Also if you are keeping the individual ammo pools could players at least be given some option to which weapons get resupplied first? Why in the heck would Shepard restock his/her TC supply for a Sniper Rifle when Husks are literally swarming you and you need as many clips as possible for the Shotgun? Perhaps this could be resolved by having TCs only resupplying the equipped weapon? (Of course then everyone really hate picking up Thermal Clips.)

See this is the hole you dig yourself into by adding "ammo". Nevermind the fact that allies and enemies still have unlimited ammunition themselves. Which is basically another excuse for poor A.I. At least the playing field in ME1 was even. I don't much care for the A.I. having the ability to "cheat".

This guy he gets it!

[Sylvius the Mad]

111987 wrote...

I defintley agree that modern FPS's make finding ammo too easy. I didn't mean to say that ME2 was like a Resident Evil game in the sense that you had VERY limited ammo, but that unlike in an overheat system, you actually do have a finite amount of bullets, so it creates the illusion of needing to be conservative/accurate. It's just a personal preference though.

Games with limited ammo can be great.  System Shock 2 is an excellent example.  System Shock 2 often left you with no ammo at all, forcing you to use a wrench to farm hybrids for credits so you could occasionally buy ammo from the vending machines.

That's not what I'm complaining about with ME2.  ME2's problem is that the implementation of ammo, aside from breaking the lore, forces one playstyle.

[Sgt Stryker]

Bluko wrote...

If there's one thing I must insist (or beg it seems these days) it's that you make clips function by clip and not individual bullet count. 
In essence whenever you reload you lose all the remainder of shots with the loaded clip as there is no way individual shots can or should be preserved from Thermal Clips as they ejected are onto the ground afterwards. It's really quite silly you allow this.

I like this idea. If anything, it would discourage the typical shooter mentality of "fire one shot-have 29 left over-reload anyway" that a lot of gamers have. This is a good thing and would be more in line with the idea of thermal clips. The heat sink is a discrete unit that has a set capacity. If you fire 1 shot out of an assault rifle and you have 29 left over, and you decide to eject that sink anyway, congratulations, you just wasted 29 shots. 

[Sepewrath]

Insanity being hard, we cant have that.

[Anacronian Stryx]

Personally i would like a system with 5000 shots(as was the lore) - you have to replace a ammo block from time to time and two inboard heatsinks - one overheats you rotate the other in place while the fist one cools of .

[capn233]

Wow. Some people want the game to move towards the original Rainbow Six... In that one you kept partially empty mags on you though and could pop them in if need be. But there was 0 ammo pickup in a mission. And reloading was not very fast at all.

It isn't really "realistic" that the enemies wouldn't have any clips on them if they are using similar weapons. At least the clips are supposed to be universal. It isn't as if you are running around with an M4 and pick up "rifle ammo" from a guy with an AK47. I know, they don't actually work in all your guns after they are allotted.

It would almost be more interesting if the thermal clips cooled down on their own though. Why not? Unless they are undergoing some irreversible endothermic reaction to act as the heatsink (which is plausible).

The other question though is what powers these guns. Seems like they could have gone with a heat mechanic paired with a battery mechanic... you would end up with something like the Plasma Rifle in Halo.

Sort of just throwing stuff out though. I don't mind the ME2 system, and it has already been implemented in ME3 anyway.

Modifié par capn233, 17 septembre 2011 - 06:33 .

[Terror_K]

Bluko wrote...

But this sort of thing has no place in Mass Effect. At least not with the way you guys chose to add ammuntion. I believe I remember a few Devs stating that TCs were implemented to make players swap weapons more then anything else. And how did ME1's overheating not accomplish this? Again the issues with ME1 in this regard could (and should IMO) have been rectified in ME2.

The thing is, if the devs really did add these things to make players change weapons all the time, then I don't think that's a good move personally, and I find it more frustrating and limiting than challenging in a good way. Especially when I've heard BioWare state several times, "the right way to play the game in the end is how you the players do it, not how we do" etc.

The reason behind this is simple: weapon specialisation. In ME1 I had different builds of the same class, and that went for weapons as well. Now with the way ME2 went about things that was completely thrown aside since in the end I'm basically forced to use every weapon available instead of using the weapon I wanted to focus on for that build. The most annoying example for me is the Vanguard: I've had three different ones in ME1, but there's little point in importing any but one. In ME1 I had a close-quarters build that focused on Shotguns, and a more medium ranged one that focused primarily on Pistols.

Now in ME2 I'm forced to use Shotguns with my Pistol build and Pistols with my Shotgun one. Rather than playing the build the way I want to, I'm shoehorned into changing weapons because the game arbitrarily states that I must use a certain pool of thermal clips for a weapon I have no interest in using, so I end up having to use it. The whole point of chosing builds with weapon-specific focus in mind in an RPG is to allow variety and specialisation to suit the style you want to go for, and allow you to explore the other style with another build. ME2 doesn't allow that and forces you into falling back into a style that doesn't suit your build with a silly, pointless limitation.

[Phaelducan]

IMO it's silly not to use a Sniper Rifle at a target 400 meters away because you have a shotgun "build." So what, specialize in your preference, but utilize the best tool for any given situation. Shotguns suck against heavy armor. That's logical to me, so I'd use something that doesn't suck.

Couple points though, as stated in an earlier post, not to mention countless other posts for months and months. Guns should cool down on their own over time to a minimum shot capacity. I buy the switch, I buy the new codex, I buy the whole thing... except it's absolutely absurd that once you fire all of your shots, the gun stays hot forever without a new thermal clip to eject.

Also, an omni-tool would be able to change any standard size clip to any other standard size clip fairly quickly. Why is it it so hard to accept in-game explanations I wonder?

[Cheesy Blue]

uh..... can we lock this thread? Another stupid thermal clip troll thread is a major eye sore when I look at the forum home.

[Omega4RelayResident]

Cheesy Blue wrote...

uh..... can we lock this thread? Another stupid thermal clip troll thread is a major eye sore when I look at the forum home.

You got a lot of balls calling this one a troll thread when you got on my case for calling the other one a troll thread.