29 réponses à ce sujet

[ShadowLordXII]

What happens to the phylacteries of mages who join the wardens?

Initially this practice is used by the Chantry to keep track of mages who have fled the Circle and will allow the Templars to hunt them before they become malificarim or worse.

Does the Chantry still keep the phylactery of a mage who becomes a warden?

I always thought that either the phylactery would be destroyed out of respect to the Grey Wardens or as a side-effect of the Joining (with the Taint and so on).  Despite the reach of the Chantry, I can't see the Grey Wardens being too keen with their mages being trackable by an outside influence which could interfere with their duties.

Reasons:
1) We never find Ander's phylactery despite being told about the warehouse it was in.  Even then, he was able to flee to Kirkwall and avoid capture for six years.

2) If the Mage Warden's was still around then either Loghain or Howe would've been able to coerce the Chantry to allow him to use it to track him and Alistair down and set up an ambush either as soon as their survival was discovered or that the Antivan crow (Zevran) had failed.

3) Aren't Grey Wardens honored throughout most of Thedas for saving the world from four, now five Blights? You'd think that the Chantry would respect those within the Warden's ranks with a bit of no-strings-attached trust.  Not to say that they're aren't bad apples within the wardens (Bregan, Bregan's sister (forgot her name), That mage woman from DA II: Legacy, or the Silent Sister Warden who sided with the Architect); but on a whole, you'd think the Chantry would be convinced that the Wardens themselves would be able to watch their own mages by themselves.

4) The Right of Conscription.  Even in practice, there usually isn't any objection to this being used to recruit criminals, elves, mages or other figures, even lords (Loghain) have been recruited without major disagreement.

5) Plus, it would be a clear extension of usage of "blood magic" even if Chantry sanctioned, which the wardens would bring up if the Chantry annoyed them enough.

Thoughts?

Modifié par ShadowLordXII, 15 septembre 2011 - 03:52 .

[IanPolaris]

As far as I know the Chantry keeps them. That is probably a power overreach on the part of the Chantry, but then again since when was the Chantry afraid of overreachng it's legal powers?

-Polaris

[Stoomkal]

It is a little contradictory, as OP states.

I think it was an oversight that was never corrected. I thought it was plain stupid that my Hero of Ferelden could still be tracked like a damn criminal...

Then again, Wardens are the bad guys, now...

[Morroian]

Stoomkal wrote...

Then again, Wardens are the bad guys, now...

So Bethany or Carver are bad guys if they become Wardens?

[The Xand]

I think the phylacteries are kept by the Chantry but become redundant because after the Joining because the mage Warden's blood is tainted and no longer the same so the phylactery kept by the Chantry can't be used against him any more.

Modifié par The Xand, 15 septembre 2011 - 06:35 .

[IanPolaris]

The Xand wrote...

I think the phylacteries are kept by the Chantry but become redundant because after the Joining because the mage Warden's blood is tainted and no longer the same so the phylactery kept by the Chantry can't be used against him any more.

Anders certainly didn't seem to think that.

-Polaris

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

ShadowLordXII wrote...

What happens to the phylacteries of mages who join the wardens?

We were discussing this recently in the DA:O forums. In short, we don't know.

1) We never find Ander's phylactery despite being told about the warehouse it was in.  Even then, he was able to flee to Kirkwall and avoid capture for six years.

This is true. To me this suggests that either the phylactery was handed over or destroyed after the events of Awakening, or Anders merging with Justice might have nullified the phylactery's power in some fashion.

Can templars still track mages who have become abominations via phylacteries? No idea.

2) If the Mage Warden's was still around then either Loghain or Howe would've been able to coerce the Chantry to allow him to use it to track him and Alistair down and set up an ambush either as soon as their survival was discovered or that the Antivan crow (Zevran) had failed.

I disagree with this point. The survival of the last Grey Wardens is not discovered until after they leave the Korcari Wilds, and by that point the Circle Tower has suffered a slight infestation of demons. I don't think anyone would have been going inside to fetch a phylactery (and if the vault has been moved since the Mage Warden and Jowan broke in, as Finn says it was in Witch Hunt, it could be anywhere).

3) Aren't Grey Wardens honored throughout most of Thedas for saving the world from four, now five Blights? You'd think that the Chantry would respect those within the Warden's ranks with a bit of no-strings-attached trust.  Not to say that they're aren't bad apples within the wardens (Bregan, Bregan's sister (forgot her name), That mage woman from DA II: Legacy, or the Silent Sister Warden who sided with the Architect); but on a whole, you'd think the Chantry would be convinced that the Wardens themselves would be able to watch their own mages by themselves.

They're still mages. In fact the game and the books(?), said something to the effect of the Grey Wardens only having one mage recruit at a time (per country, IIRC). The Chantry appears to keep a pretty tight grip on how many mages it allows outside its control.

4) The Right of Conscription.  Even in practice, there usually isn't any objection to this being used to recruit criminals, elves, mages or other figures, even lords (Loghain) have been recruited without major disagreement.

If you play a Dwarf Commoner, City Elf or Mage there is disagreement to you being recruited due to crimes committed or witnessed. Human noble your father disagrees until he's bleeding to death (and it's kind of a dick move by Duncan to basically say "I'll save your child if I get to recruit her."). City Elf has his/her wedding hurried by the hahren when he hears Duncan is coming seeking recruits. Dwarven Noble and Dalish there's no disagreement because it's "Join us or die in the Deep Roads/of massive taint."

Anders has disagreements when he's recruited. Nathaniel (originally came to kill the PC), I think Varel calls you mad.

Loghain, I suspect there would have been more disagreements than just Alistair there, but on the other hand he's being stripped of his titles, lands and regency, and Anora announced to the whole Landsmeet the Joining could kill him. Possibly people were praying that he'd die.

5) Plus, it would be a clear extension of usage of "blood magic" even if Chantry sanctioned, which the wardens would bring up if the Chantry annoyed them enough.

Phylacteries being a form of blood magic, used by the templars no less, is something I'm wondering why has yet to come up in game.

[Satyricon331]

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...
I disagree with this point. The survival of the last Grey Wardens is not discovered until after they leave the Korcari Wilds, and by that point the Circle Tower has suffered a slight infestation of demons. I don't think anyone would have been going inside to fetch a phylactery (and if the vault has been moved since the Mage Warden and Jowan broke in, as Finn says it was in Witch Hunt, it could be anywhere).

In the mage origin, by the time the mage warden & Jowan break into the phylactery chamber, the Templars have already moved her/his phylactery to Denerim.

O/w I agree with your great post

edit: to bring it back to ShadowLordXII's point, I think it's possible Loghain wouldn't have known the name of the mage warden recruit, and with the Circle fallen was unable to obtain that info.  If so (I'm usually wrong about these things) he'd be unable to know which phylactery to use, and maybe doesn't have the manpower to check out all of them/all the younger-mage ones.  At least, I don't recall giving him my wardens' names on the playthroughs I had them speak to him in Ostagar, I don't know that the other survivors of Ostagar would know the name (Uldred might have but he's at the Circle), and even if he or an ally had the name at Ostagar they might not remember.

Modifié par Satyricon331, 15 septembre 2011 - 09:50 .

[Wulfram]

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

I disagree with this point. The survival of the last Grey Wardens is not discovered until after they leave the Korcari Wilds, and by that point the Circle Tower has suffered a slight infestation of demons. I don't think anyone would have been going inside to fetch a phylactery (and if the vault has been moved since the Mage Warden and Jowan broke in, as Finn says it was in Witch Hunt, it could be anywhere).

The Mage Warden's phylactery is sent to Denerim after the Harrowing.

edit: I post too slowly

Modifié par Wulfram, 15 septembre 2011 - 09:47 .

[Herr Uhl]

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

2) If the Mage Warden's was still around then either Loghain or Howe would've been able to coerce the Chantry to allow him to use it to track him and Alistair down and set up an ambush either as soon as their survival was discovered or that the Antivan crow (Zevran) had failed.

I disagree with this point. The survival of the last Grey Wardens is not discovered until after they leave the Korcari Wilds, and by that point the Circle Tower has suffered a slight infestation of demons. I don't think anyone would have been going inside to fetch a phylactery (and if the vault has been moved since the Mage Warden and Jowan broke in, as Finn says it was in Witch Hunt, it could be anywhere).

During the mage origin they say that the phylacteries are going to get moved to Denerim and thus this is your last chance to destroy them. So I'd wager Denerim is where the Fereldan mages in the Fereldan wardens phylacteries would be. Unless of course, they are more recent than you, which doesn't seem likely. Keeping the phylacteries at the tower seems ill-advised in the case of a rebellion.

Same would likely be true for wardens of other nationalities, if the phylacteries were kept. And to be honest, we only know of one case where it has been kept, Anders, and his was kept by a templar bent on revenge.

Stoomkal wrote...

Then again, Wardens are the bad guys, now...

Why are the wardens the bad guys now?

[The Xand]

IanPolaris wrote...

Anders certainly didn't seem to think that.

-Polaris

Anders isn't all knowing though, and the Grey Wardens that conscripted him might not have bothered to tell him or might not have known since the most experienced and wisened Grey Wardens that might have known had all been killed at Ostagar. Also, his phylactery was never destroyed but he managed to hide from the Templars for years.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Given that the Chantry's track record with overstepping its bounds, I doubt they destroy the phylacteries of Circle mages who become Wardens.However, I've often wondered if the Taint and Joining effect the Warden and their blood enough that the phylacteries do not work as well as they did when the mage was untainted. That would be something for the developers to clarify.

The Chantry does not seem to respect the Wardens like most do, but mostly tolerate them.

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

Oops, good call, guys. See, this is what happens when you've only done the mage Origin once XD

@Satyricon331 - I will say that it seems very likely Loghain does know the Mage Warden's name, as if you speak with him at Ostagar he says Cailan told him all about the meeting with you. While the PC might never say his or her name, I'm sure Duncan does (offscreen, for obvious VO reasons) or at least sends it in a letter, which is how Alistair knows you're coming.

[Patchwork]

In the mage origin Duncan asks for an explanation on what a phylactery is. IMO after the joining phylacteries no longer work so the wardens don't bother themselves about it.

I didn't know that about that, one mage per country, the Chantry have an even tighter grip than I thought. Viva la Revolution

Modifié par Ser Bard, 15 septembre 2011 - 11:14 .

[Satyricon331]

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

Oops, good call, guys. See, this is what happens when you've only done the mage Origin once XD

@Satyricon331 - I will say that it seems very likely Loghain does know the Mage Warden's name, as if you speak with him at Ostagar he says Cailan told him all about the meeting with you. While the PC might never say his or her name, I'm sure Duncan does (offscreen, for obvious VO reasons) or at least sends it in a letter, which is how Alistair knows you're coming.

Yeah, I didn't remember Loghain telling the warden that Cailan told him all about him/her.  It's still possible Loghain wouldn't have the name - given Loghain's disinterest in the Grey Wardens and his disbelief that it's a blight and that the GWs are necessary even if it were, I really don't think he'd have troubled himself about the letter's discussion of a new recruit, and he might have exaggerated or bluffed about Cailan's discussion, or Cailan might have just discussed the recruit loosely/abstractly (imo he seems a little loopy to discuss details), or even still L might have forgotten (I mean, a warden recruit would just not have seemed that significant).  But I agree it's less likely then.  

[LobselVith8]

Ser Bard wrote...

In the mage origin Duncan asks for an explanation on what a phylactery is. IMO after the joining phylacteries no longer work so the wardens don't bother themselves about it.

I'd assume the phylacteries work because the Warden-Commander never tells Anders that this is the case when Anders brings up finding his phylactery in Amaranthine. The Warden-Commander can even ask Anders if he thinks his phylactery might be in the warehouse.

Ser Bard wrote...

I didn't know that about that, one mage per country, the Chantry have an even tighter grip than I thought. Viva la Revolution

That's what the mage cleaning Duncan's room and Wynne (in the deleted 'blood mage' scene at the end of "A Broken Circle") say, but there was more than one mage at Warden's Keep under Sophia Dryden, and the Warden-Commander of Amaranthine can be a mage and have more than one mage recruited at Amaranthine with no one saying anything about it (specifically, Anders and Velanna).

[naledgeborn]

Tainted blood = inert phylactery. Anders didn't seem to think so because he was a Warden for about a week.

[LobselVith8]

naledgeborn wrote...

Tainted blood = inert phylactery. Anders didn't seem to think so because he was a Warden for about a week.

That doesn't explain the Warden-Commander from the Circle of Ferelden, who is familiar enough with the Grey Wardens to explain to Levi Dryden that blood magic is condoned by the order in "Warden's Keep," but doesn't provide this as an explanation for Anders' phylactery (or even his own when he questions Anders on whether his own would possibly be inside the warehouse).

[naledgeborn]

LobselVith8 wrote...

naledgeborn wrote...

Tainted blood = inert phylactery. Anders didn't seem to think so because he was a Warden for about a week.

That doesn't explain the Warden-Commander from the Circle of Ferelden, who is familiar enough with the Grey Wardens to explain to Levi Dryden that blood magic is condoned by the order in "Warden's Keep," but doesn't provide this as an explanation for Anders' phylactery (or even his own when he questions Anders on whether his own would possibly be inside the warehouse).

Warden-Commander was never given that information on screen. Who's to know what s/he knows? And a Warden (B/C) Hawke does imply their blood is useless to the Carta in Legacy. Janeka did say that she tried to get Warden Hawke's blood from Stroud, but I'm guessing that she was grasping at straws. And I think it's kind of obvious since the importance of blood is highlighted during the Joining. Warden's are forever changed after being tainted. That means their blood too.

[LobselVith8]

naledgeborn wrote...

Warden-Commander was never given that information on screen. Who's to know what s/he knows? And a Warden (B/C) Hawke does imply their blood is useless to the Carta in Legacy. Janeka did say that she tried to get Warden Hawke's blood from Stroud, but I'm guessing that she was grasping at straws. And I think it's kind of obvious since the importance of blood is highlighted during the Joining. Warden's are forever changed after being tainted. That means their blood too.

The Warden is clearly familiar with some rules without needing to be told on-screen, given the information that the protagonist provides to Levi Dryden. Also, the Warden sibling's blood is useless for the specific ritual needed for releasing the imprisoned darkspawn, which doesn't mean that the phylacteries are useless.

[T3H Fish]

If I had to make a guess, I would think that a Grey Warden Mage's phylactery doesn't become inert, but likely becomes more difficult to track them once they consume the Taint. Think of it like radio interference, you can pick up the signal at certain distances but most of the time it doesn't come in clearly enough to pin-point what it is. A Grey Warden Mage could still be traced by their phylactery, but because of the Taint altering their blood, it probably is very difficult to get clear directions.

Though can also argue that the Hero's phylactery was destroyed during the Battle of Denerim, since it's not clear WHERE in Denerim they are stored and the Horde and Arch Demon laid waste to most of the city.

It's a plausible explanation for how Anders managed to elude both the Grey Wardens and the Templars for so long, though given the situation in Kirkwall after the first year or so, I think Meredith and the Templars just tolerated him being there, just like they tolerate a Mage Hawke being free of the Chantry's control or Hawke's infulence was strong enough to keep Meredith from acting until she started going crazy.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Why would tehy destroy the phylactery? Might aswell keep it. They won't ever have a reason to use it (hopefully), but if the grey warden mage does turn rogue, or heaven forbid, an abomination, the phylactery will be the only way to track him.

[Quething]

LobselVith8 wrote...

naledgeborn wrote...

Tainted blood = inert phylactery. Anders didn't seem to think so because he was a Warden for about a week.

That doesn't explain the Warden-Commander from the Circle of Ferelden, who is familiar enough with the Grey Wardens to explain to Levi Dryden that blood magic is condoned by the order in "Warden's Keep," but doesn't provide this as an explanation for Anders' phylactery (or even his own when he questions Anders on whether his own would possibly be inside the warehouse).

The DA:O PC knows that blood magic is condoned by Wardens because she went through the Joining and witnessed Wardens condoning blood magic firsthand.

She doesn't know anything else about Wardens and magic, how would she? Not knowing anything about the Wardens is kind of a theme for DA:O. Even in the beginning of Awakening she's still having to ask Varel and whats-her-face the finance lady about the functioning, organization and guiding principles of the wider organization. The most secret secrets of the order, like for example that killing an Archdemon annihilates your soul, aren't exactly something she has access to at any point. And "by the way the Chantry can't track our mages" seems like something they'd want pretty secret.

Modifié par Quething, 17 septembre 2011 - 01:32 .

[Boiny Bunny]

I would venture to guess that the Chantry keep the physical objects - but they become utterly useless as soon as the darkspawn 'taint' enters the blood of the Grey Warden. That is to say, there is no need to destroy the object or steal it from the Chantry - it become useless the instant somebody actually becomes a Grey Warden (provided that they survive the joining of course).

Of course, Anders would not have been aware of this when he requested that the Warden find his - but it would certainly explain how he managed to get away and stay hidden.