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Bioware postmodernism in its Fantasy RPG.


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#1
Ceesko

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Just watching the trailer for the new DLC{very hollywood-ish:} gives strength in my opinion that bioware turned its medieval fantasy rpg which was adequately portrayed in DA:O to neither medieval nor fantasy, but simply a postmodernist setting with swords instead of guns. Replacing the weapons with automatic machines will absolutely make no difference.

My feeling and this opinion in general stems from the way characters react to each other, the way they talk like if they were living in the 21th century, they way they react to gender differences as if everyone is unisex, all this defies all climate or logic that bioware tried to establish in DAO. It simply lost its feelings; it doesn't feel like a fantasy anymore, just a bizarre mish-mash between a modernistic setting and a medieval one.
Just my opinion.

Modifié par Ceesko, 16 septembre 2011 - 03:15 .


#2
LeBurns

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Well it's not just your opinion, and you've made some good points.

But it doesn't matter. The Dark Gritty WRPG world of Dragon Age Origins is gone forever. All I can do is replay it, over and over again.

#3
GodWood

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I already felt that way with Origins and its very liberal views on homosexuality and female warriors.

That's not to say I don't want those features in the game I'd just rather my character be subject to more medieval intolerences.

Anyways, what 'new trailer' are you talking about?

Modifié par GodWood, 16 septembre 2011 - 03:20 .


#4
LeBurns

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Well I played female warriors in D&D over thirty years ago, so that stereo-type has been gone a while for me. BG I know was modded for same sex romance, so that really isn't that new, it's just now built into the game.

#5
whykikyouwhy

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I didn't see any grand differentiation of genders in DA:O - save for a few situations where gender was called out, I can't recall it being an issue and certainly not as something that would dictate social structure. The same goes with dialogue - the companions had a very casual way of addressing one another, a very 'modern' manner, if you will, in conversation. So I'm not certain where you are seeing a disparity in the social environments between the two games. They seem similar to me.

Personally, I prefer my medieval-esque worlds to be more fantasy based than historically accurate. I enjoy playing female characters who are doing more than weaving tapestries in towers, but that's just my take on things.

#6
GodWood

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LeBurns wrote...
Well I played female warriors in D&D over thirty years ago, so that stereo-type has been gone a while for me. BG I know was modded for same sex romance, so that really isn't that new, it's just now built into the game.

I don't believe I said it was a new phenomenon.

#7
Ceesko

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[quote]I already felt that way with Origins and its very liberal views on homosexuality and female warriors.

That's not to say I don't want those features in the game I'd just rather my character be subject to more medieval intolerences.[quote/]

That is why I said it was adequately portrayed, at least you got to argue with Sten on his view on women. At least the gender difference with visible specially in the City Elf origin.

Anyways the new trailer is up in youtube, Mark of the Assassin. Watch and judge it for yourself

Modifié par Ceesko, 16 septembre 2011 - 03:27 .


#8
Ceesko

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whykikyouwhy wrote...

I didn't see any grand differentiation of genders in DA:O - save for a few situations where gender was called out, I can't recall it being an issue and certainly not as something that would dictate social structure. The same goes with dialogue - the companions had a very casual way of addressing one another, a very 'modern' manner, if you will, in conversation. So I'm not certain where you are seeing a disparity in the social environments between the two games. They seem similar to me.

Personally, I prefer my medieval-esque worlds to be more fantasy based than historically accurate. I enjoy playing female characters who are doing more than weaving tapestries in towers, but that's just my take on things.


It does not have to be historically accurate. But at least match the logic and climate it is supposedly set in, otherwise you will end up with a Final Fantasy.

At least in DAO they where some elements of this.

#9
GodWood

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Ceesko wrote...
Anyways the new trailer is up in youtube, Mark of the Assassin.

Thanks

#10
CaptainZaysh

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whykikyouwhy wrote...

Personally, I prefer my medieval-esque worlds to be more fantasy based than historically accurate. I enjoy playing female characters who are doing more than weaving tapestries in towers, but that's just my take on things.


I think it would be better if female warriors were more exceptional than they seem to be in Thedas.  I don't think there are very many women who would constitute a credible threat in close combat to the average fighting age male.  I think Aveline or Ser Cauthrien might have been more striking if women weren't so incredibly well represented in Thedas's fighting units.

#11
Ceesko

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To be honest, Dragon Age 2 is just the logical conclusion of the BioWare Romance Formula: everyone wants to @:$# the protagonist - now not even their sexuality will get in the way.

Actually the more I think about it the more pathetic it seems, it's really nothing but an escapist powertrip designed for the murkier parts of the Bioware fanbase. A cursory read of this forum confirms this view..

Modifié par Ceesko, 16 septembre 2011 - 03:40 .


#12
esper

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Woman actually have a little more power than men because woman can earn high ranking titles in the chantry system which men can't (Grand Cleric, Divine.). I think I read in some lore that it was because of Maferath and his betrayal of Andraste.
The intolerances in Thedas are different from our hisotrical once. They seems to be intolerant to people with different religion (dalish and qunari), city elves and mages. I am not sure what they think of dwarves.
Sexuallty and gender is just not so important in Thedas.

#13
thats1evildude

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GodWood wrote...

I already felt that way with Origins and its very liberal views on homosexuality and female warriors.


I figure that in a world where everyday life brings the risks of getting eaten by dragons, possessed by demons or flayed alive by darkspawn, people wouldn't get too hung up about sexuality.

Modifié par thats1evildude, 16 septembre 2011 - 03:56 .


#14
highcastle

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Let's not say "postmodernism" like it's a bad thing, first of all. Without postmodernism there'd be no Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy, House of Leaves, White Teeth, Written on the Body, The Man in the High Castle etc. I feel like the OP doesn't know what s/he's referencing by calling out that particular literary genre. It's a style designed to make us question the nature of reality, truth, and humanity. As such, it can be a pretty powerful tool.

Take, for instance, Bodahn's speech about the Hero of Ferelden when we encounter him for the first time in the Hightown markets. There's a moment where he stops talking to Hawke, looks out at the screen, and addresses the player instead. This is a scene where the game is working on two levels: one in which Hawke as the character is receiving relevant information to the world, and one in which the player is hearing about their own past accomplishments.

In some ways, most video games are "postmodern" to an extent. Anytime you have a tutorial level, anytime there's a reference to another series, the game is suggesting that what's going on inside it isn't real. Well, obviously. But in most other forms of fiction, you don't often see these same shoutouts. Sometimes a character will reference feeling like they're "in a movie" (or a play or a book, etc.) which is a clue to the reader that on some level, the characters know their reality is a construct. In video games, though, it happens all the time.

What postmodernism isn't: anachronisms that result from lack of research, a catchall term to refer to anything you don't like, etc. So saying that the love interests all want to romance Hawke regardless of sexual orientation is not an example of postmodernism. It's not an example of anything, really, except that the society of Thedas is much more liberal and open regarding orientation. Not unlike ancient Greece, for instance. And you can't have anachronisms in a fantasy setting that's outside earth.

In short, I guess I'm saying I don't know what the OP is saying. You're going to find it very hard to escape postmodernism in games because the medium itself is based on those principles. Do you not like references to other games (such as the "eaten by a gru" comment one miner makes during the Deep Roads expedition)? Do you know like references to the player as a controlling entity (such as Hawke's comment that someone must have thought long and hard about his name)?

#15
whykikyouwhy

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@Ceesko - Well, I never got a FF vibe. But then, I didn't see a huge disparity between DA:O and DA2. Maybe because, for me, DA:O established the world/setting, so wth DA2, certain elements did not need to be readdressed or repeated. So too, DA2 had a smaller scope as far as the map goes - there was less travelling out to different realms. You were surrounded by Kirkwall culture, with some sprinkling of the Dalish for good measure.

As far as sexuality in the games goes, that's just one option that a player can partake in. If you want to make a comparison with high fantasy, romanticism was a big deal - gallant knights, ladies in waiting, etc. So part of the fantasy genre has its roots in epic poetry and tales that inevitably include some sort of mention of love (and implications of sex). But again, in-game, that's a side dish of sorts. Not necessary, but a nice treat for those interested.

@CaptainZaysh - I think by the time we drop into the DAverse, the gender politics have eased. Hence the original Aveline was so remarkable. And didn't she sort of initiate the change in the order to allow women? That's one area where there was a cultural shift...where we enter the game, things are on more equal footing. It still allows for there to be remarkable and bad*ss female warriors though, imo (it just makes their fight to rise in the ranks to be, perhaps, less restrictive).

#16
Big I

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Ceesko wrote...
My feeling and this opinion in general stems from the way characters react to each other, the way they talk like if they were living in the 21th century, they way they react to gender differences as if everyone is unisex, all this defies all climate or logic that bioware tried to establish in DAO. It simply lost its feelings; it doesn't feel like a fantasy anymore, just a bizarre mish-mash between a modernistic setting and a medieval one.



I've always bought the gender equality in Dragon Age because they made Andraste a woman, as well as all subsequent Chantry leaders. It provides a logical way to have equal rights without losing the medieval setting.

#17
maxernst

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Dragon Age was as close as they've ever come to doing something that resembled medieval Europe. Unlike the Forgotten Realms, there are at least explanations for why women are treated more or less equally in Thedas: having a female dominated religious hierarchy would do that,and you also have the story of Aveline, which indicates that it was not always thus. So while gender inequality is pretty much a constant in most of our pre-Industrial societies, I can see why it might not be so in Thedas.

As to homosexuality, historical societies varied considerably in how they perceived sex and sexuality. Thedas isn't Judeo-Christian, so it shouldn't necessarily be expected to have the same attitudes toward sexuality.

#18
Herr Uhl

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Ceesko wrote...


My feeling and this opinion in general stems from the way characters react to each other, the way they talk like if they were living in the 21th century, they way they react to gender differences as if everyone is unisex, all this defies all climate or logic that bioware tried to establish in DAO.


I found all of this to be there in DAO, and in their manifest for the game setting. It is not new.

#19
AlexXIV

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Well it's DA2 style, which is not surprising since it is a DLC for DA2.

#20
KLUME777

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I agree, and also the art style is partly to blame as well.

#21
Ceesko

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LookingGlass93 wrote...

Ceesko wrote...
My feeling and this opinion in general stems from the way characters react to each other, the way they talk like if they were living in the 21th century, they way they react to gender differences as if everyone is unisex, all this defies all climate or logic that bioware tried to establish in DAO. It simply lost its feelings; it doesn't feel like a fantasy anymore, just a bizarre mish-mash between a modernistic setting and a medieval one.



I've always bought the gender equality in Dragon Age because they made Andraste a woman, as well as all subsequent Chantry leaders. It provides a logical way to have equal rights without losing the medieval setting.


I am not talking about gender equality, I am all for it. I am talking about the said sex interaction with the said world has absoluletly no difference if you are male or female. Greatest example of this both of them are addressed with the same title "messere".

#22
LeBurns

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Ceesko wrote...

To be honest, Dragon Age 2 is just the logical conclusion of the BioWare Romance Formula: everyone wants to @:$# the protagonist - now not even their sexuality will get in the way.

Actually the more I think about it the more pathetic it seems, it's really nothing but an escapist powertrip designed for the murkier parts of the Bioware fanbase. A cursory read of this forum confirms this view..


That may be all fine, but if dog starts licking my legs ...

#23
esper

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Ceesko wrote...

LookingGlass93 wrote...

Ceesko wrote...
My feeling and this opinion in general stems from the way characters react to each other, the way they talk like if they were living in the 21th century, they way they react to gender differences as if everyone is unisex, all this defies all climate or logic that bioware tried to establish in DAO. It simply lost its feelings; it doesn't feel like a fantasy anymore, just a bizarre mish-mash between a modernistic setting and a medieval one.



I've always bought the gender equality in Dragon Age because they made Andraste a woman, as well as all subsequent Chantry leaders. It provides a logical way to have equal rights without losing the medieval setting.


I am not talking about gender equality, I am all for it. I am talking about the said sex interaction with the said world has absoluletly no difference if you are male or female. Greatest example of this both of them are addressed with the same title "messere".


They specifically chose gender neutral ways of adressing the protagonist to save vocie acting.
As for the li's they actually talk different to male and female Hawke. Some of them a lot some just a single line, but the diffrence is there. 

#24
HanErlik

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maxernst wrote...

As to homosexuality, historical societies varied considerably in how they perceived sex and sexuality. Thedas isn't Judeo-Christian, so it shouldn't necessarily be expected to have the same attitudes toward sexuality.


Being against homosexuality is not just about religion. Pagan Germans and pre Islamic Turks were also against homosexuality. This is simple; if a society direly needs sons or daughters who are needed for working in farms or fighting in battles, homosexuality cannot be tolerated. But in properous societies, such as Ancient Roman and Greek aristocracy, homosexuality means no harm.

In that case, perception of hs (I got tired of writing this word) should have varied for different nations in Thedas. But they all acts like modern, wealthy, liberal Europeans. For example Dalish Elves are near to extinction but all the elves we know are bisexual.

#25
Ceesko

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HanErlik wrote...

maxernst wrote...

As to homosexuality, historical societies varied considerably in how they perceived sex and sexuality. Thedas isn't Judeo-Christian, so it shouldn't necessarily be expected to have the same attitudes toward sexuality.


Being against homosexuality is not just about religion. Pagan Germans and pre Islamic Turks were also against homosexuality. This is simple; if a society direly needs sons or daughters who are needed for working in farms or fighting in battles, homosexuality cannot be tolerated. But in properous societies, such as Ancient Roman and Greek aristocracy, homosexuality means no harm.

In that case, perception of hs (I got tired of writing this word) should have varied for different nations in Thedas. But they all acts like modern, wealthy, liberal Europeans. For example Dalish Elves are near to extinction but all the elves we know are bisexual.



Exactly. And this is not just about hs, the general attitude and behavior of most characters is well, is like modern,wealthy, liberal europeans!

Just take this latest DLC as an example, I mean come on! "The most impregnable fortress ever built?!", most of the lines in the trailer sounds like something come from oceans elven not a medieval fantasy.

Modifié par Ceesko, 16 septembre 2011 - 09:37 .