147 réponses à ce sujet

[jamesp81]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

You don't consider them equal. The Qunari does. Since even the Saarebas consdier themselves equal in the Qun, I would stick to their own social dogma, and not yours.

Then both the Qun and the Saarebas themselves are wrong on the matter.  Simple as that.

[jamesp81]

blothulfur wrote...

We strive for freedom for all, the mages rebellion want freedom for themselves. The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few.

If you're going to quote Mr Spock, then you have to quote Capt Kirk from the end of Star Trek III:

Spock: My father says you have been my friend.  You came back for me.
Kirk: You would've done the same for me.
Spock: Why would you do this?
Kirk: Because the needs of the one...outweigh the needs of the many.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Xilizhra wrote...

blothulfur wrote...

Yes, until the fade is severed from reality and both magic and possession are no more then mages will always seek more power and influence. Just like your nobility, the most ruthless and power hungry shall rule. Blood mages and anbominations.

And as always the common man shall suffer, but now he will give his soul and not just his life.

Kind of like how the Qun wants to own everyone's soul?

No. The Qun wants nothing from your soul. They want all to be equal under the Qun. To reach a common enlightenment, for a better world.
Take that as you will... but on paper it is a noble goal.

[blothulfur]

No Aristotle James. Selflessness before childish selfishness, the needs of the nation are paramount.

Xilizhra, you misunderstand the Qun.

[Xilizhra]

No. The Qun wants nothing from your soul. They want all to be equal under the Qun. To reach a common enlightenment, for a better world.
Take that as you will... but on paper it is a noble goal.

Many things are noble on paper.

Xilizhra, you misunderstand the Qun.

Do I? Perhaps you could enlighten me on one thing, then.
What is the role of Ariqun?

[naledgeborn]

Holy ****! Just read the first page. Blothulfur's Manifesto!

Modifié par naledgeborn, 19 septembre 2011 - 07:19 .

[blothulfur]

The ariqun leads the soul of the Qun, the proper way for our society to develop is at the heart of the ariqun's responsibilities. Through Kosluns teachings and experience the ariqun guides the body and implements the knowledge of the mind.

But to answer the question behind your question, the path to enlightenment differs for each individual. The ariqun can give us the words to hear but only we are able to understand, she does not seek blood and souls like the demon and the beast.

[Xilizhra]

Right... so the Ariqun is responsible for the interpretations of the Qun, and is the highest authority on that?

[jamesp81]

blothulfur wrote...

No Aristotle James. Selflessness before childish selfishness, the needs of the nation are paramount.

Xilizhra, you misunderstand the Qun.

Many a noble has said the same thing.  I think we all know how that turned out.

The Qunari aren't really any different than anyone else except in one respect: they put on a good act about being better.  But at the end of the day they mean to rule and will use violence to do it, same as any other "noble" lord.

[blothulfur]

The difference is we have no nobility and we have no slaves, judge us by our actions if you refuse to believe our words. Yes we mean to bring the Qun to all for the slavery and repression of the feudal kingdoms is heinous and wasteful to us, evil must be fought wherever it is found and what is more evil than the enslavement of the masses for the benefit of a few.

Modifié par blothulfur, 19 septembre 2011 - 11:42 .

[Heimdall]

blothulfur wrote...

The difference is we have no nobility and we have no slaves, judge us by our actions if you refuse to believe our words. Yes we mean to bring the Qun to all for the slavery and repression of the feudal kingdoms is heinous and wasteful to us, evil must be fought wherever it is found and what is more evil than the enslavement of the masses for the benefit of a few.

  That's because all qunari are slaves from birth.  Their society seeks to trap each into a role chosen against their will and drag them away from the Maker's path.  Drive these heathens out!  Let their deceitful words cease on our shores.  I call for a renewed Exalted March, destroy the unbeliever! 

[Xilizhra]

blothulfur wrote...

The difference is we have no nobility and we have no slaves, judge us by our actions if you refuse to believe our words. Yes we mean to bring the Qun to all for the slavery and repression of the feudal kingdoms is heinous and wasteful to us, evil must be fought wherever it is found and what is more evil than the enslavement of the masses for the benefit of a few.

Oh, I do judge you by your actions. Extensively.

[Eyeshield21]

LobselVith8 wrote...

I don't see the future of Dragon Age allowing the protagonist to side with the Qunari.

To be honest, I don't even see Dragon Age 3 allowing the protagonist to support the templars or the mages against the other.

It'll probably be like ME3, where shepard has to get everyone together and settle their differences, but probably more outcomes to it(like DA does well about it)

[Urzon]

Xilizhra wrote...

blothulfur wrote...

The difference is we have no nobility and we have no slaves, judge us by our actions if you refuse to believe our words. Yes we mean to bring the Qun to all for the slavery and repression of the feudal kingdoms is heinous and wasteful to us, evil must be fought wherever it is found and what is more evil than the enslavement of the masses for the benefit of a few.

Oh, I do judge you by your actions. Extensively.

It is hard to judge the Qun right now since we have only seen their military. I'm personally waiting to see a Qun town and/or the Ariqun and the Arigena before making any final decisions on them as a whole. Plus we have only seen the Kossith of the Qun in action, and they seem to be the most devout to the Qun philosophy. The elves and humans of the Qun could be alot more laid back, for all we know.

[asaiasai]

The qun is a lie and it is just another form of slavery. Free men do not answer to any but themselves, free men look after themselves, free men ask for nothing but the right to self determination, free men are willing to accept the risks only the freedom live or die based entirely upon thier merit grants. Regardles of how you wrap it it is still slavery just different masters. Arishok as opposed to lord, wrap it in nation, flag, ideology, dogma, mysticism, and to a lesser degree law it is all the same in the end. To be free one must have rights but most importantly one MUST understand the responsibility of those rights. For example, i have the right to make babies, but i have no job so how can i be responsible for caring for those babies, so in the end do i really have the right to make babies? Free your mind and your ass will follow.

Asai

[EmperorSahlertz]

No one is free...

[blothulfur]

And where exactly are the free men in Thedas, they are slaves bound to live, die and do on the whims of their noble masters. A child born to a peasent or serf slave is not free to prove himself or to be what they wish, they are doomed to pull the plough and serve their "betters" until a merciful death comes. Never having known a task suited to them or the contentment of being equal.

The arishok is a normal qunari, no "special" blood runs in his veins and no non existent god has blessed him, as with the others of the triumvirate he has risen because of self determination and ability. As any qunari can. Watching and judging children as they grow the tamassran set them basic tasks and games that indicate where their skills lie and what paths they should pursue, surely this is preferable to dooming them to the plough because of class and lack of inbred blood.

Why let the slavery of class endure, why revere an inbred bloodline when its sons do nothing to prove their worth, why submit to the followers of a non existent god and his madwoman bride, why do you fear freedom and responsibility when the Qun offers you equality, a role suited to your skills and the respect of all. Chevaliers rape and murder without consequence, Banns send their peasents into war against their neighbours armed with sticks while sitting back clad in stout plate mail and watching their people be slaughtered, magisters sacrifice a few hundred slaves to achieve congress with their demon masters or merely on a whim. This should not endure. 

Free your body, mind and soul through the teachings of the Qun.

Modifié par blothulfur, 20 septembre 2011 - 11:22 .

[Boiny Bunny]

asaiasai wrote...

To be free one must have rights but most importantly one MUST understand the responsibility of those rights. For example, i have the right to make babies, but i have no job so how can i be responsible for caring for those babies, so in the end do i really have the right to make babies? Free your mind and your ass will follow.

Asai

Unfortunately, often these 'responsibilities' are not understood or adhered to in the real world.

You can make babies, and have the right to do so, regardless of whether or not you can be responsible for caring for them.  Thus, if you want babies, you will have babies - good for you (perhaps), not so good for said babies or society at large.

In a world where every single person completely understood the responsibility of their rights, and adhered to it, there would be no need for laws.

[Tommy6860]

Boiny Bunny wrote...

asaiasai wrote...

To be free one must have rights but most importantly one MUST understand the responsibility of those rights. For example, i have the right to make babies, but i have no job so how can i be responsible for caring for those babies, so in the end do i really have the right to make babies? Free your mind and your ass will follow.

Asai

In a world where every single person completely understood the responsibility of their rights, and adhered to it, there would be no need for laws.

This really doesn't make sense in it the context of this discussion. Are not rights made by laws? Maybe re-wording it to say that "if everybody understood their responsibility to what is right..."

[DPSSOC]

blothulfur wrote...

The difference is we have no nobility and we have no slaves, judge us by our actions if you refuse to believe our words. Yes we mean to bring the Qun to all for the slavery and repression of the feudal kingdoms is heinous and wasteful to us, evil must be fought wherever it is found and what is more evil than the enslavement of the masses for the benefit of a few.

He who does not rule is enslaved, all that differs is the temperment of their masters.  The Qun offers a single choice, fulfill your role or die.  Serfdom offers the same choice, serve your lord or die (one way or another).  The difference being the Qun doesn't seem to set standards for service (a poor slave is still better than a dead one) while a lord may kill you for not performing to their satisfaction.  Neither the Qun nor the lord offer choice in how you serve, they merely demand you do.  The Qun offers many things; certainty, equality, stability, but freedom has no place in it.

[Boiny Bunny]

Tommy6860 wrote...

Boiny Bunny wrote...

asaiasai wrote...

To be free one must have rights but most importantly one MUST understand the responsibility of those rights. For example, i have the right to make babies, but i have no job so how can i be responsible for caring for those babies, so in the end do i really have the right to make babies? Free your mind and your ass will follow.

Asai

In a world where every single person completely understood the responsibility of their rights, and adhered to it, there would be no need for laws.

This really doesn't make sense in it the context of this discussion. Are not rights made by laws? Maybe re-wording it to say that "if everybody understood their responsibility to what is right..."

Not exactly.  I was referring more to what people seem to feel are their 'intrinsic' rights, regardless of law.  For example, it is thought by most in Australia (where I live) that women should have equal rights, in all aspects of life and law, to men.  This is part of the law in Australia, so there is no difference between the two.

However, there are countries in the world where the law states that women do not have equal rights to men.  Thus there may be a division between what 'the law says is a woman's right' and what one percieves to be a woman's intrinsic right.

Most people have views on what their own 'intrinsic rights' are, and those of others, regardless of law. 

Somebody might think for example, that they have the 'right' to drink as much alcohol as they want in a single sitting.  This is a legal right in many places around the world.  In an ideal world, people would take a level of responsibility with this right however, and ensure that they did not drive under any circumstances until they were sure that most of the alcohol had left their system.  Alas, people lack such responsibility.  Thus a law was created to enforce a level of responsibility onto that 'right' - if that makes any sense!

[blothulfur]

You are wrong DPSSOC. The qunari are free to excel in their given roles and become as great as their ambition and ability allow, the triumvirate do not guide us by virtue of blood or god, they guide because they have proven themselves. In leaving the raising of our children to the tamassran we allow them to be judged, tested and taught by unbiased and discerning minds over many years rather than suffer the expectations and biases of their parents.

Compare this to the assignment of roles that the feudal kingdoms present, the peasents son will be a peasent again, cattle to his masters whims and not even be evaluated for his talent or skill. Any unbiased eye may see that this is wasteful and unfair, the illogical rule of an unproven individual over vast masses of others is wrong and we aim to end this slavery by force of arms if necessary. As for those who support such evil repression, they shall be punished and made to serve.

You are right in one thing though, under the barbaric feudal kingdoms he who does not rule is enslaved. Under the Qun if the least of men were busily attending to their tasks not even the triumvirate would have the right to disturb or halt them without good reason. If the proud ariqun were strolling lost in contemplation and crossed the path of the herder driving his flock to market, then she must step aside and bide her time for his role takes precedence.

[Lazy Jer]

First off, you can't really say the mage rebellion is wrong.  Lock someone up anywhere and they'll rebel and want to break out, it doesn't matter if it's in the Gallows or the Blooming Rose.

Secondly I do long for the freedom the the Qun offers, I really do.  Freedom from being able to drink, yay.  Freedom from owning as much money as I can lay my hands on, woo.  Freedom from being able to do anything even mildly enjoyable, where do I sign up.

There's sarcasm there if you hadn't detected it.  Let's face it, unchaining yourself from nobles to chain yourself to the Qun is a bit like abandoning turkey for chicken.

[DPSSOC]

blothulfur wrote...
You are wrong DPSSOC. The qunari are free to excel in their given roles and become as great as their ambition and ability allow,

 
That they possess a longer leash than most does not mean the leash is gone.  Are they free to act as they wish, when they wish, wherever they wish?  Can a Qunari tell one of the triumvirate where to stuff it because they simply don't desire to perform their appointed task?  Again any man or woman who has a master is a slave.  If you answer to anyone, high or low, you are a slave.  As I said the only difference between your slavery and that of the feudal system is the temperment of your masters.

blothulfur wrote...
You are right in one thing though, under the barbaric feudal kingdoms he who does not rule is enslaved. Under the Qun if the least of men were busily attending to their tasks not even the triumvirate would have the right to disturb or halt them without good reason. If the proud ariqun were strolling lost in contemplation and crossed the path of the herder driving his flock to market, then she must step aside and bide her time for his role takes precedence.

Than you have another distinction from the feudal system in that even your masters are slaves, cherish it.

[dragonflight288]

In an attempt to remove this chaos, one can simply look to the past and those who came before. History is the greatest mentor of all. Great generals and kings have shown the way to improve the lives of all. We can learn the mistakes our ancestors made and see where things went wrong and not repeat them.

It is not in the words of a by-gone deity who turned away from his children...twice. Nor is it in the gods who abandoned their creations. But the true wisdom of our ancestors, good and bad intentions and mistakes, is what makes any culture great. Venerate your ancestors as we dwarves do, and may the stone support you.