434 réponses à ce sujet

[TEWR]

There's also the HN line in Origins to Iona when asking what she thinks of humans. Paraphrasing but it goes something like, "Do you find them attractive? The reverse is often true." Like I said paraphrasing but it gives the impression that "Elves are attractive" is a common opinion, though it may be an opinion based on misinformation.

I think you got the line exactly right. If so, the key word there is "often". Often doesn't mean always, so the people saying that all elves need to be attractive are operating on faulty logic.

[Addai]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

And there were still ugly elven women in Origins, so it's a moot point. The Stolen Throne came out after Origins. He didn't say that men were attracted to all elven women, now did he? 

No one is saying that all elves are hot.  But it's part of the lore that generally speaking, they are considered attractive.  You were disputing that that is even part of the lore, and it demonstrably is.

And once again- if some in Origins were ugly, you would have hoped that the sequel would improve on them.

Modifié par Addai67, 22 septembre 2011 - 03:19 .

[tmp7704]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Because he said the Crows, who operate out of Antiva and live in Antiva, hire elves due to their attractiveness.

"Out of" being the key word -- note that's something said by Crow assassin who operates in Ferelden, and there's a handful of other Crows operating there, that you can interact with in the game. And Ferelden is literally nearly at the end of known world.

So if you have organization which operates across Thedas, even as far as Bummfsck, Nowhere then perhaps their preference for hiring elves comes from the Thedas-wide preference towards that species, not some local flavour which would render that advantage completely useless beyond their own tiny borders.

He just said elven women. That doesn't mean they're all attractive. It just means that men have a propensity to be as attracted to elven women as they are to human women.

I'm sorry, but this is blatant spinning. "If a man says he likes blondes then it just means he likes brunettes just as much."

And no, of course it doesn't mean they are all attractive. (which may explain your point why some of them in DAO weren't... then again, horses for courses)  However, i think all these tidbits we're given put together form sort of a common belief that elves on average are supposed to be "pleasant to the eye" as Leliana puts it. Meaning, attractive looking elves should be relatively common, and these who aren't -- few.

Modifié par tmp7704, 22 septembre 2011 - 12:43 .

[Zanallen]

Riddle me this though; just how are elves attractive to humans? Beauty is subjective and often based regional or cultural preferences. Being overweight used to be beautiful because it was a sign of wealth. Wide hips and large breasts are generally considered a sign that a woman is fertile and won't have issues with birthing. Some tribes consider elongated necks beautiful and the women of those tribes use metal rings to lengthen their necks. Some tribes like teeth filed into points. Anyway, the point is, what exactly do the men in Thedas find attractive? Is it classical beauty? Modern beauty? Something else derived from living in a wolrd alien to our own? Hell, maybe the men of Thedas are just horn dogs who will schtoop anything that moves. Maybe they have an opposites attract vibe going on and like elven females precisely because they are different from them. A little Dalish Fever, maybe.

[willholt]

Everwarden wrote...



People don't dislike Dragon Age 2 elves because they're 'different', which is what Bioware pretends is the problem with any complaint about Dragon Age 2, but because they look awful.

Precisely!! ... got no problem with them wanting to change the appearance of the elves and make them more distinctive... but did the whole design team have to forget to wear their glasses when they did it? ... End result was distinctive, but oh so, SO UGLY!!

Everwarden wrote...
Most of them look like they've suffered severe blunt force trauma and recieved reconstructive surgery from a drunk, blind auto mechanic trying to give them facial features similar to a chipmunk. An ugly chipmunk. 

... and now you owe me a new monitor, as I've just sprayed coffee all over mine. roflmao

[tmp7704]

Zanallen wrote...

Riddle me this though; just how are elves attractive to humans? Beauty is subjective and often based regional or cultural preferences.

In part, yes. But especially when it comes to the facial features there's largely universal appeal of symmetry and certain proportions to the features, that you can find time and time again on portraits and in sculptures made across the ages.

[TEWR]

Addai67 wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

And there were still ugly elven women in Origins, so it's a moot point. The Stolen Throne came out after Origins. He didn't say that men were attracted to all elven women, now did he? 

No one is saying that all elves are hot.  But it's part of the lore that generally speaking, they are considered attractive.  You were disputing that that is even part of the lore, and it demonstrably is.

And once again- if some in Origins were ugly, you would have hoped that the sequel would improve on them.

On the contrary, I've seen posts from people saying that all the elves look like they've suffered all manner of serious injuries, and when someone brings up a good-looking elf they either say "Oh it's subjective" (which it is) or "Oh that's just an elf with a more humanistic look".

I actually never disputed that the elves were considered attractive. They are. But it's this notion that all of the elves must be attractive that I'm disputing.

If you actually look at the majority of elves in DAII, they are indeed attractive. Most are in the Dalish clan: Ineria, Fenarel, Ilen, Variel, Marethari, Merrill, Arianni (her tattoos could've looked better though, but I attribute that to age), etc.

Then there are some City Elves that look great: Orsino, Lia, Zevran (imo he looks fine, but can definitely look better), Elven Fanatic (remove what the saar-qamek did to her skin and she's a good looking elf), Athenril, and probably a few more.

The Dalish have a very beautiful air about them that fits given the fact that they're not around polluted, festering, racism-filled cities.

People are saying that the new elves are ugly and then talk in hyperbole, but aren't actually saying what's so ugly about them. Personally, I see nothing ugly about the elves in DAII that deals with the design itself and not an individual elf.

[tmp7704]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

People are saying that the new elves are ugly and then talk in hyperbole, but aren't actually saying what's so ugly about them. Personally, I see nothing ugly about the elves in DAII that deals with the design itself and not an individual elf.

I see the specific grievances listed quite often in these threads. They generally involve the traits which were introduced to the DA2 elves to make them more "distinct", and which are most certainly part of the actual design itself, than individual features.

It's okay if you personally don't see anything ugly about these elves, even ones like the 'new' Zevran, but please accept that some people do.

[Sabariel]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
People are saying that the new elves are ugly and then talk in hyperbole, but aren't actually saying what's so ugly about them.

Not every elf I thought was creepy/ugly/unattractive/whatever has this entire list, this is just a list of all the traits that I found irksome or repulsive. I also don't think every one of these traits was intended (ie: the ostrich neck, the appearance of the ears, the too-big head) but it's still present and still creeps me out.

-Freaky noses / raised nose bridge
-Too-big eyes
-Too-thin faces
-Ostrich neck
-Balloon head
-Child/tween-like appearance
-Too-skinny body
-Ears that resemble stretched silly putty from a side-on view.

Modifié par Sabariel, 23 septembre 2011 - 12:42 .

[TEWR]

tmp7704 wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

People are saying that the new elves are ugly and then talk in hyperbole, but aren't actually saying what's so ugly about them. Personally, I see nothing ugly about the elves in DAII that deals with the design itself and not an individual elf.

I see the specific grievances listed quite often in these threads. They generally involve the traits which were introduced to the DA2 elves to make them more "distinct", and which are most certainly part of the actual design itself, than individual features.

It's okay if you personally don't see anything ugly about these elves, even ones like the 'new' Zevran, but please accept that some people do.

And people that do find something ugly about the elves need to accept that other people might not. Opinions are wonderful things.

Even if there are flaws with the design (that I myself do not see), that's no excuse for asking to return to humans with pointy ears. Rather, they should be asking for the design's flaws to be improved upon in future iterations of the series.

So far, I haven't seen anyone say anything that's a specific grievance of the design. It's just "They're ugly now!".

[Addai]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

If you actually look at the majority of elves in DAII, they are indeed attractive. Most are in the Dalish clan: Ineria, Fenarel, Ilen, Variel, Marethari, Merrill, Arianni (her tattoos could've looked better though, but I attribute that to age), etc.

No, I find them all quite unattractive.  They look like aliens.  Fenris is the only one I consider decent looking, though I could do without the big ears and his limbs could stand to be a bit more muscled.  And shoes.  Dear god, shoes.

I realize you disagree.  However, some people do not find the new style attractive.  There's a fairly common principle that people are attracted to proportional faces and bodies.  In the design of the asari race in ME, they focus tested different things- and some of those prototypes I've seen look a lot like the DA2 elves- and found that people were rejecting the more alien look.  They preferred a human looking race.  Obviously the DA designers went a different route.  Opinions vary on how successful that is.

Modifié par Addai67, 23 septembre 2011 - 12:38 .

[TEWR]

Sabariel wrote...

Not every elf I thought was creepy/ugly/whatever has this entire list, this is just a list of all the traits that I found irksome or repulsive. I also don't think every one of these traits was intended (ie: the ostrich neck, the appearance of the ears, the too-big head) but it's still present and still creeps me out.

-Freaky noses / raised nose bridge

It's really just an extended human nose, and they didn't make it a continuous nasal bridge. They did add a slight indentation/bump/whatever to the elven noses around where it meets the forehead

-Too-big eyes

I've seen people with the same thing and it didn't bug me.

-Too-thin faces

The only one that fit this that I saw was Orana, and she looks like that because she's a slave. Danarius and whats-her-name didn't exactly take care of their slaves.

-Ostrich neck

People have naturally elongated necks in our world too (myself included), and some even make their necks elongated on purpose. I've seen people who have a disproportionate head to their neck also

Frankly, I again don't see a problem with the necks because they look proportional to the head

-Balloon head

Not quite sure what you mean. Do you mean like a bloated and chubby face? If so, elves weren't the only ones to have that.

-Child/tween/too young in general-like appearance

I didn't see anyone who looked at all like that, and a youthful grace fits with the idea of them trying to regain immortality. They were said to not age in body, but in spirit. They do age in body now, but the Dalish do so at a pace that doesn't make them look their age, which is appropriate given how they remember the immortality.

Also, an elf's lifespan seems to be a few centuries given how Ilen talks about his father facing the Clayne tribes after the fall of the Dales, which happened a few centuries before Calenhad united the Clayne tribes.

-Too-skinny body

Eh, I don't see it. I bet if we were able to we could see that they have fat and muscle on their body structure. The body structure is proportional to their more narrow heads.

Plus, I have a skinny body structure myself coupled with an abnormally high metabolism.

-Ears that resemble stretched silly putty from a side-on view.

This I can agree with. I'd rather have the ears pulled back or jut out to the side in a diagonal way, not in a sideways way.

I mean, Tomwise's ears were just huge!

[Sabariel]

Balloon head = head too big for the skinny body. Mostly the female elves had this problem, Athenril is an example.

I saw no elf that had just one of the traits I listed. It was a combination, perhaps the "wrong" combination, of two or more of these traits that made me go: "eww". I will probably never like the DA2 elves (thoughts of DA2 Zevran still makes me cry myself to sleep at night ). I am hoping there will be a few tweaks to the DA3 elves and maybe then I will find them attractive/not creepy/whatever.

Forgot to put this on my list: some of the elves' ears are wayyyy too low down on their heads and it bothers me. OCD? Yes!

Also, I don't think people who find the DA2 elves attractive/not creepy/whatever are weird or stupid or anything, I think they have different tastes than me and nothing more. Just putting that out there before anyone tries to eat me.

Modifié par Sabariel, 23 septembre 2011 - 01:16 .

[dreadpiratesnugglecakes]

You know what would make the elves better? What would really help brand them with DA distinctiveness? Horns. Now don't be hasty...we don't want big Qunari battle cattle cow horns. Just a nice set of antlers. Totally different. Really. Totally not the same or lame or anything. Nothing says brand new experience and exciting redesign like sticking horns on something that didn't have them before.

[Satyricon331]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
On the contrary, I've seen posts from people saying that all the elves look like they've suffered all manner of serious injuries, and when someone brings up a good-looking elf they either say "Oh it's subjective" (which it is) or "Oh that's just an elf with a more humanistic look".

I actually never disputed that the elves were considered attractive. They are. But it's this notion that all of the elves must be attractive that I'm disputing.

But who is saying they all must be attractive?  And how is that first paragraph contrary to what Addai67 wrote?

If you actually look at the majority of elves in DAII, they are indeed attractive. [...] Zevran [...]

omigawwwd, you are so straight  (I'm just teasing, ppl)

But to the extent it's fair for you simply to assert these aesthetic preferences as you do, it's fair for someone else to assert the majority of elves in DA2 are unattractive, etc.  And preferring the humans-with-pointed-ears look to the DA2-elf look is also a matter of preference.  

tmp7704 wrote...

Zanallen wrote...
Riddle me this though; just how are elves attractive to humans? Beauty is subjective and often based regional or cultural preferences.

In part, yes. But especially when it comes to the facial features there's largely universal appeal of symmetry and certain proportions to the features, that you can find time and time again on portraits and in sculptures made across the ages.

While I'd avoid the word "universal" here, there are facial proportions whose popularity seems to be more common than random chance would suggest - much like how Bach is more popular than the average of musicians but liking him is still a matter of subjective taste.  (I think nearly everyone here thinks liking the DA2 elves is subjective.)  I'd suspect there's much less variation on faces than on body types.  Addai67's point about the Asari in ME is surprising mostly in that they did the study at all.  

[Saberchic]

Wow. Just saw this thread. I gotta say, OP, that if you really want to debate it fairly, you would include Merrill from DAO and DA2 as the comparison and not some other elf.

That's really the only fair way to debate the changes--you look at the same person and examine the differences. Otherwise, it just seems that you are trying to manipulate the outcome--trying to get a desired consensus.

[TEWR]

But who is saying they all must be attractive? And how is that first paragraph contrary to what Addai67 wrote?

.....damn. You're right about the contrary bit.

I have to stop posting when I'm really tired. I tend to say things that make no sense.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 23 septembre 2011 - 04:43 .

[tmp7704]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Even if there are flaws with the design (that I myself do not see), that's no excuse for asking to return to humans with pointy ears. Rather, they should be asking for the design's flaws to be improved upon in future iterations of the series.

If someone genuinely thinks the previous version of the design was a better approach and happens to like it, i fail to see exactly why they aren't allowed to request exactly that. That's perfectly good reason (not excuse) to ask for it, imo. And obv, that may be a controversial request some are given to be strongly against, but the exact same thing can be said about the opposite stance.

[Addai]

tmp7704 wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Even if there are flaws with the design (that I myself do not see), that's no excuse for asking to return to humans with pointy ears. Rather, they should be asking for the design's flaws to be improved upon in future iterations of the series.

If someone genuinely thinks the previous version of the design was a better approach and happens to like it, i fail to see exactly why they aren't allowed to request exactly that. That's perfectly good reason (not excuse) to ask for it, imo. And obv, that may be a controversial request some are given to be strongly against, but the exact same thing can be said about the opposite stance.

Yep.  I'm fine with humans with pointy ears.  The need to be "distinctive" is an impulse that has led DA to grief in more than one respect, IMO.

However, since they've already said they're going to stick with the basic DA2 style, just a bit toned down/ moderated would be nice.  And shoes.  Please, please.  Aliens I can handle.  Barefoot aliens is just dumb.

[Blastback]

Wulfram wrote...

They should tweak things rather than doing a wholesale revamp. Use the more swept back ears of Merrill and Fenris rather than the sticky out ears more common with the rest. Maybe make the nose/brow ridge a bit less pronounced, but keep it. Give them all the equivalent of a few good meals.

Also, stop making the faces so doughy. Though this applies more widely than the elves

I could get behind this.  While I generaly dislike the elven redesign, I know that Bioware seems to want to keep it.  But some subtle tweaks could go aways to making it more palatable for those of us who prefered the Origins design.

[Huntress]

Well for my game I had to get mod's for the 7-8 elves that actually resemble humanoid one of them is the slave we get doing fenris quest..

I really hope we are NOT forced to play as ELves in the furure.. Even less wanted if they are going to look like that, I undestand people love to bed aliens but come on.. Not all of us want to be/do or likes that.. oh and yes I mod fenris and Merril as well, couldn't romance them the way they were..

[Everwarden]

Saberchic wrote...

Wow. Just saw this thread. I gotta say, OP, that if you really want to debate it fairly, you would include Merrill from DAO and DA2 as the comparison and not some other elf.

Yeahno. Merril looks little to nothing like the other elves of Dragon Age II, and is therefore not representative of the changes.

[Heimdall]

Everwarden wrote...

Saberchic wrote...

Wow. Just saw this thread. I gotta say, OP, that if you really want to debate it fairly, you would include Merrill from DAO and DA2 as the comparison and not some other elf.

Yeahno. Merril looks little to nothing like the other elves of Dragon Age II, and is therefore not representative of the changes.

No, she is actually not so dissimilar.  It's the most hideous ones people object to though, so those are the ones they complain about.

[Sabariel]

Lord Aesir wrote...

Everwarden wrote...

Saberchic wrote...

Wow. Just saw this thread. I gotta say, OP, that if you really want to debate it fairly, you would include Merrill from DAO and DA2 as the comparison and not some other elf.

Yeahno. Merril looks little to nothing like the other elves of Dragon Age II, and is therefore not representative of the changes.

No, she is actually not so dissimilar.  It's the most hideous ones people object to though, so those are the ones they complain about.

Actually, I "object" to elves that others say they find attractive, such as Athenril, Merrill, Fenarel, Zevran, and so on.

[alex90c]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

And there were still ugly elven women in Origins, so it's a moot point. The Stolen Throne came out after Origins. He didn't say that men were attracted to all elven women, now did he? 

No one is saying that all elves are hot.  But it's part of the lore that generally speaking, they are considered attractive.  You were disputing that that is even part of the lore, and it demonstrably is.

And once again- if some in Origins were ugly, you would have hoped that the sequel would improve on them.

On the contrary, I've seen posts from people saying that all the elves look like they've suffered all manner of serious injuries, and when someone brings up a good-looking elf they either say "Oh it's subjective" (which it is) or "Oh that's just an elf with a more humanistic look".

I actually never disputed that the elves were considered attractive. They are. But it's this notion that all of the elves must be attractive that I'm disputing.

If you actually look at the majority of elves in DAII, they are indeed attractive. Most are in the Dalish clan: Ineria, Fenarel, Ilen, Variel, Marethari, Merrill, Arianni (her tattoos could've looked better though, but I attribute that to age), etc.

Then there are some City Elves that look great: Orsino, Lia, Zevran (imo he looks fine, but can definitely look better), Elven Fanatic (remove what the saar-qamek did to her skin and she's a good looking elf), Athenril, and probably a few more.

The Dalish have a very beautiful air about them that fits given the fact that they're not around polluted, festering, racism-filled cities.

People are saying that the new elves are ugly and then talk in hyperbole, but aren't actually saying what's so ugly about them. Personally, I see nothing ugly about the elves in DAII that deals with the design itself and not an individual elf.

goddamnit shes a CHILD

:/