215 réponses à ce sujet

[Tommy6860]

MerinTB wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

sp0ck 06 wrote...

Your character in Baldur's Gate is completely established by the game's designers.  The only hand the player has in shaping your character is picking from a list of pre determined dialogue.

In KoTOR, your character is even more established.  You're Revan, and you don't even know it for most of the game...

That's backstory, not personality.

Right at the start of BG when you leave Candlekeep and get ambushed, what does your character do next?  Why?  Does he follow Gorion's advice and go to the Friendly Arm Inn?  Why?  Does he decide to head to the nearest town because it's safer?  Why?  Does he decide that the roads aren't safe, and Gorion's advice was bad because it got them ambushed and instead get off the road as soon as possible?  Why?

BG grants the player trememndous freedom in character design.  It does so more than any subsequent BioWare game, in fact, because it also allows free travel, so your character can actually go anywhere for any reason, regardless of whether the game is aware of that reason (this free travel disappeared in BG2, and hasn't been seen again in a BioWare game with the possible exception of Mass Effect).

While I didn't get FAR in BG in the three times I tried playing it, I agree.

Also, as far as "being Revan" - that's who you WERE, not who you are.  Even if you choose to return to the path Revan took, that person is GONE.  You are, more or less, tabula rasa at the start of the game.

And being the child of whom your the child of in the Baldur's Gate series doesn't even choose your race for you, so that's not really "establishing your character for you" in all but the broadest of terms.

I don't see where Sylvius made any claim otherwise to Revan being the PC at the start of the game, rather how one injects their personality into playing the character out. I got the same effect from his reply regarding BG as well.

[Dhiro]

I'm re-recommending Icewind Dale. The battles are a little hard (but that's probably because I suck at old rpgs), but it's also very fun. I think that, roleplay-wise, you'll find it satisfactory.

Some classes (notably Druid and Bard) have some alternative options to complete quests, I'm not sure if you think that's good or bad, but I thought it was a nice touch.

[Jestina]

There's Mount & Blade if you want something that is more authentic to medieval times. It's kind of a mix of strategy and rpg. A game in which I can finally play a mounted archer, but it's definitely not for everyone. It's kind of brutal to you starting out since the combat system is more realistic.

No magic, no insta healing, no scrawny characters with large weapons. Now if one of the better game developers would work on a game like this, that would be great. As much as Bioware likes to harp on wanting to be unique, they should have made an RPG like this.

[Chromie]

Jestina wrote...

There's Mount & Blade if you want something that is more authentic to medieval times. It's kind of a mix of strategy and rpg. A game in which I can finally play a mounted archer, but it's definitely not for everyone. It's kind of brutal to you starting out since the combat system is more realistic.

No magic, no insta healing, no scrawny characters with large weapons. Now if one of the better game developers would work on a game like this, that would be great. As much as Bioware likes to harp on wanting to be unique, they should have made an RPG like this.

Bioware isn't unique. At least not anymore.

Agreed though. Mount & Blade is awesome. Fantastic game and fun multiplayer.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Ringo12 wrote...

Agreed though. Mount & Blade is awesome. Fantastic game and fun multiplayer.

Right.  I should mention this:

I have no interest in multiplayer.  If I wanted to play with other people, I'd play tabletop games.  I play CRPGs specifically to avoid multiplayer.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Tommy6860 wrote...

I don't see where you think this works "terrifically" in Oblivion. Any quest you choose, and especially the main quest-line, you have no choice in doing it or not.

Sure you do.  In all the time I played Oblivion, I never even saw the main quest.  To this day I have no idea what it was.

In fact, the event that I think was supposed to be the main plot hook was the worst plot hook I've ever seen.  I'm in prison, and then mysteriously released.  The guy whose prison it was refuses to say why I was in prison.  And then he tells me to travel to a distant city to talk to his Captain of the Guard.

What?  Why would I do that?  That's insane.  So I never went to that city - I made a point of avoiding that city.  I did a lot of stuff, but whatever the main quest-line was, I don't know.

I suppose it's possible I did some of it, but I wasn't aware what it was.  That's another hallmark of a well designed RPG.  In BG, there's no way to know that the assassins who are attacking you in various towns are part of the main quest until after the fact.  There's no reason to believe that the Gnoll Stronghold isn't part of the main quest.  The whole thing is disjointed.

BioWare mostly doesn't do that anymore, either, but they did in DA2, so that was nice.

[Xewaka]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...
Sure you do.  In all the time I played Oblivion, I never even saw the main quest.  To this day I have no idea what it was.
In fact, the event that I think was supposed to be the main plot hook was the worst plot hook I've ever seen.  I'm in prison, and then mysteriously released.  The guy whose prison it was refuses to say why I was in prison.  And then he tells me to travel to a distant city to talk to his Captain of the Guard.
What?  Why would I do that?  That's insane.  So I never went to that city - I made a point of avoiding that city.  I did a lot of stuff, but whatever the main quest-line was, I don't know.
I suppose it's possible I did some of it, but I wasn't aware what it was.  That's another hallmark of a well designed RPG.  In BG, there's no way to know that the assassins who are attacking you in various towns are part of the main quest until after the fact.  There's no reason to believe that the Gnoll Stronghold isn't part of the main quest.  The whole thing is disjointed.
BioWare mostly doesn't do that anymore, either, but they did in DA2, so that was nice.

I reached the level ceiling in both Fallout 3 and New Vegas before starting the main plot. I like to play wanderlust characters when the game allows.

[Cyberarmy]

Yeah good ol'Morrowind even its main quest was far better than Oblivion(imo) still couldnt find myself to start it.
Spend about 120 hours before starting main quest. And after hours of main questing i relaised that i killed some important quest guys :/

Good times, now we cant even touch NPCs in majority of games.

[RPGamer13]

Do you have a DS?

Etrian Odyssey is a Turn-Based tactical RPG and you make your entire party and you go around mapping dungeons as there's no in-game map.


Or how about a PSP?

class of Heroes, you also make your entire party and there's also no backstory. It's a dungeon crawler though.


PS3: White Knight Chronicles II, but I don't think it meets your criteria. Although, the character you create has no backstory that was revealed in the first game. The game also includes both games under the updated combat system, which is . It's an action RPG too, but it's "turn-based".

And the only things you hear from your character are battle cries, like Dragon Age Origins.


Dragon Quest series, every game has a silent protagonist. And a vague backstory. In VIII all you knew about the main character was he is a Knight and he's half Dragon. In Dragon Quest IX, again don't know if you have a DS, you get to create your sprite, it's a sprite so there's not that many options. And the only thing you have on your character is that they are an angel.

[sp0ck 06]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

sp0ck 06 wrote...

Your character in Baldur's Gate is completely established by the game's designers.  The only hand the player has in shaping your character is picking from a list of pre determined dialogue.

In KoTOR, your character is even more established.  You're Revan, and you don't even know it for most of the game...

That's backstory, not personality.

Right at the start of BG when you leave Candlekeep and get ambushed, what does your character do next?  Why?  Does he follow Gorion's advice and go to the Friendly Arm Inn?  Why?  Does he decide to head to the nearest town because it's safer?  Why?  Does he decide that the roads aren't safe, and Gorion's advice was bad because it got them ambushed and instead get off the road as soon as possible?  Why?

BG grants the player trememndous freedom in character design.  It does so more than any subsequent BioWare game, in fact, because it also allows free travel, so your character can actually go anywhere for any reason, regardless of whether the game is aware of that reason (this free travel disappeared in BG2, and hasn't been seen again in a BioWare game with the possible exception of Mass Effect).

I don't see how this is different than Mass Effect.  Does Shepard follow TIM's advice and recruit Mordin, or head to the Citadel?  Does Shep bother gaining the loyalty of Jack, or risk activating Legion?  Why?

Obviously BG had a much larger space for the player to explore, and more sidequests, but it's the same idea.  Its a story driven game.  Sooner or later, you have to do the Nashkel Mines, or stop playing the game because there won't be anything to do.  So, no matter what, your character MUST do certain things to advance the game, even if s/he doesn't want to.  Mass Effect, BG, KoTOR, all similar basic structure.  They differ in mechanics, but the underlying idea of how the game plays out is the same.  You are granted freedom, but only within certain confines.  In BG2, once you go to the asylum, you pretty much are on a linear path for the rest of the game (which is quite long).

[Dominus]

Well Sylvius, from the sound of it, the only titles along those specific conditions you have yet to complete...have not yet been made. I would suggest holding out until Skyrim is released, as some have mentioned before me.

For the time being, well, you can try something outside the comfort zone. I hear Mario Party 8 is quite the cat's meow. (Just teasing, honest!) Not sure what else to tell you - the launch date is in the home stretch, at least.

[Dune01]

I know that this isn't exactly the game that you wanted, but Bastion is a great action RPG. One of the best stories in a game.

[RPGamer13]

Sacred 2, forgot about that.

But there's no customization, just change the class, hairstyle, and color.

But you don't have to advance the story to go to new areas. I also like the skills, it's a combination of needing items to upgrade commands and passives are skill points based on your level.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Luc0s wrote...

Sylvius what do you think of Dragon's Dogma so far? That game looks kinda promising!

I don't typically follow the development of action games, so I was unaware of it.

RPGamer13 wrote...

Do you have a DS?

Or how about a PSP?

PS3

PC Only.

sp0ck 06 wrote...

I don't see how this is different than Mass Effect.  Does Shepard follow TIM's advice and recruit Mordin, or head to the Citadel?  Does Shep bother gaining the loyalty of Jack, or risk activating Legion?  Why?

Unfortunately, those motivations you invent can and often are then contradicted by Shepards words and actions.

That's how Mass Effect fails.  Shepard's personality isn't under the player's control.

Dune01 wrote...

I know that this isn't exactly the game that you wanted, but Bastion is a great action RPG. One of the best stories in a game.

Games with "great stories" are typically pretty bad RPGs.  In order to tell their story effectively, they badly restrict player agency.

The two can work together - KotOR did (in KotOR, the plot's complication is entirely player-driven, and the motives stemming from that inform the entire rest of the narrative) - but that is quite rare.  In general, a tightly-woven authored narrative restricts the development of an emergent narrative, and thus limts roleplaying.

Also, as Ish mentioned on the first page, I don't enjoy action combat.  I like to have time to make decisions (so the combat needs to be pausable), and ideally I'd prefer not to have to select targets in real time.  Otherwise my character's proficiency will be limited by my ability to control a mouse, and I don't want that.  Frankly, the only thing that makes ME's combat playable for me is that you can aim while paused.

I didn't want my combat preferences to influence your responses, though, because finding games that allow largely unfettered roleplaying would help me find the developers who make such games, and I could do my own research from there.  Also, the marketing boilerplate on those games would be helpful for finding other games.  I don't know how to read a game's marketing well enough to identify features within it I like (even game reviews won't usually tell me that), so I need to find a larger sample of games with those features so I can measure how those features are described (assuming they are).

[MerinTB]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...
Games with "great stories" are typically pretty bad RPGs.  In order to tell their story effectively, they badly restrict player agency.

The two can work together - KotOR did (in KotOR, the plot's complication is entirely player-driven, and the motives stemming from that inform the entire rest of the narrative) - but that is quite rare.  In general, a tightly-woven authored narrative restricts the development of an emergent narrative, and thus limts roleplaying.

I'd like to issue a correction / caveat here...

IMO great RPGs often have great stories.  The issue is, and I think this is your problem, is that "great story" can mean different things for different mediums... what is a great story in a novel won't work in an RPG game because, IMO, a novel is a set protragonist (or protagonists) moving through a linear, preset story.  A game CAN try to be a novel, but then (again, this is just MY opinion) the game is more of an adventure game than an RPG (no matter how much loot you get or how many stats you can tweak.)  A great story for an RPG game almost requires that the story exists OUTSIDE of the protagonist (which should be created by the player) and that the protagonist can move through (and hopefully influence) by player choice and by the player created personality for the protagonist making in character decisions.  Whether the story is linear or not after that point is moot - though the better RPG, IMO, is the one that lets you change at least some minor outcomes here and there.

So, to try to sum up, I think your problem is NOT great stories for RPGs, but the TYPE of stories told in games that are MEANT to be RPGs.  As in - a set protagonist moving through set actions really is straining at the edges of what should (MY opnion) count as an RPG.

And this is why, for YEARS, I've been saying that I feel BioWare makes great ADVENTURE games. :innocent:

[UrkOfGreyhawk]

chunkyman wrote...

Skyrim (when it comes out in a month)!

Since you're a silent PC guy,  it will please you to know Bethesda is very committed to keeping that tradition of a silent PC.

Seriously? You're going to recommend a game you've never even played? Do you even realize how lame that is?

Ughh. Fanboys get on my last nerve.

Personally I think the elder scrolls games are vastly over-rated. They're just glorified first person shooters. Don't get me wrong. I have them all. I even play them from time to time, but they're definitely on my "meh" list. 

Right now the best place for RPGs is GoG.com. Here's my personal mix:
http://www.gog.com/e...ol_rpg_goodness

I'd put NWN2 towards the top of that list. The fully patched NWN2 is a 5 star game in my book. Star Wars Knights of the Old Republic is another 5 star winner. Dragon Age Origins is at the bottom end of my 5 star rating, but that's because for me the lack of a multiplayer client is something of a delbreaker. If you're not into MP it fits in much higher on the list.

Like I said. Elder scrolls is 4 stars, just above Gothic on my list, and just below Gothic 2. I prefferred Morrowind to Oblivion, but both are good.

At the bottom of the pile, Fable had some charm. I'd give it 3 stars. I'd give ME/ME2 three stars, too. Mass Effect is OK, but like the Elder Scrolls games it's really more a glorified shooter than an RPG.

Modifié par UrkOfGreyhawk, 20 septembre 2011 - 07:51 .

[Chromie]

UrkOfGreyhawk wrote...

chunkyman wrote...

Skyrim (when it comes out in a month)!

Since you're a silent PC guy,  it will please you to know Bethesda is very committed to keeping that tradition of a silent PC.

Seriously? You're going to recommend a game you've never even played? Do you even realize how lame that is?

Ughh. Fanboys get on my last nerve.

Word.

But Psychonauts is an rpg now? Ultima IV is free on Gog I think if OP wants to try that out.

[Dhiro]

Oh, there's also Kingdoms of Amalur: Reckoning. It's a free-world RPG with lots of sidequests and the like, pretty much like Oblivion or Morrowind (at least, that's what I got from the gameplay video). Also, the skills you use unlock new classes, instead of your class unlocking new skills. The combat is very fast paced, though, but the devs said you won't need to memorize combos and the like.

Maybe it's worth a try? It's not being sold yet, though.

[Ryllen Laerth Kriel]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...


I somehow missed Icewind Dale back in the day, and I regret it.

Newer games or Indie games are more likely to be something of which I'm not already aware.

I picked up Icewind Dale and it's expansion Heart of Winter back in the day and they are excellent games. It's a bit linear, but the writing is well done. The only downside is that you create an entire party instead of picking up NPCs, so there's a limitation on party interactivity. Overall it's alot of fun for people who like to customize a party, enjoy a fun, traditional fantasy plot and the Infinity Engine in it's hayday. Most of the encounters are quite good too as far as gameplay is concerned, leaving plenty of opportunity for strategic battles. Deffinitely pick this up on Amazon if you can find a copy.

[UrkOfGreyhawk]

Ringo12 wrote...

But Psychonauts is an rpg now? Ultima IV is free on Gog I think if OP wants to try that out.

I know. Bad Urk.

But it IS incredibly immersive and it's such an awesome game I plug it every chance I get.

I never really got into the ultima games.

Modifié par UrkOfGreyhawk, 20 septembre 2011 - 11:31 .

[ErichHartmann]

Ryllen Laerth Kriel wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...


I somehow missed Icewind Dale back in the day, and I regret it.

Newer games or Indie games are more likely to be something of which I'm not already aware.

I picked up Icewind Dale and it's expansion Heart of Winter back in the day and they are excellent games. It's a bit linear, but the writing is well done. The only downside is that you create an entire party instead of picking up NPCs, so there's a limitation on party interactivity. Overall it's alot of fun for people who like to customize a party, enjoy a fun, traditional fantasy plot and the Infinity Engine in it's hayday. Most of the encounters are quite good too as far as gameplay is concerned, leaving plenty of opportunity for strategic battles. Deffinitely pick this up on Amazon if you can find a copy.

www.gog.com/en/frontpage/

I think Icewind Dale II made the best use of the Inifinity Engine (aside from Baldur's Gate of course).  Great character customization, a good storyline, and very high replay value.  

[Sylvius the Mad]

Ringo12 wrote...

Ultima IV is free on Gog I think if OP wants to try that out.

Ultima IV is the greatest CRPG ever made (though I understand why some people think Ultima VII is better).

Modifié par Sylvius the Mad, 21 septembre 2011 - 03:53 .