852 réponses à ce sujet

[KnightofPhoenix]

Xilizhra wrote...
I think the fact that she's actually sane and more or less functional speaks well of her personal strength.

Obviously we have a very different conception of her. She is not sane or functional to me in the slightest.

[Dragoonlordz]

slimgrin wrote...

1136342t54 wrote...

Emotionally Jack is weak when she realizes Shepard actually genuinely likes her and she is confused as hell by that. When it comes to fighting she will tear you to shreds.

That is exaclty correct, and it's what made Jack unique. Even if I didn't like her, she was a well written character..

I didn't like her because she kept telling me to F off every 5 minutes...

[KingNothing125]

Ringo12 wrote...

And like I said. It's ok for something like Game of Thrones to have tons of sex when not every single scene is about character developement or important but not for a game? Maybe you should get back to your rock and shield your eyes.

Who said anything about Game of Thrones? I certainly didn't.

But since you brought it up, it certainly does contain gratuitous nudity.

[Xilizhra]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

MerinTB wrote...

I'd argue Jack AND Miranda are weak. Considering how powerful / perfect they "are", they have weak personalities and sure cannot handle adversity.
Tali and Samara put Jack and Miranda to shame. Humans females don't represent well in ME2, IMO.

I agree.

I'd argue Samara is intellectually weak like any zealot. So ironically, the shy and awkward one, Tali, ends up being the strongest imo.

I think Liara edges Tali out, personally, though I can't say that I totally agree about the others either.

As for Witcher...  again, there's no lesson that isn't cautionary to be learned from it when it comes to sex. Maybe it can do consequence plots well, but sex? **** no.

[naledgeborn]

Siansonea II wrote...

It's not my job to be conciliatory. If he misunderstood me, that's his problem. He's the one who chose to interpret that I was talking about "all men" and "all women". And instead of asking "do you think this way of all men and all women?" he just came out guns blazing and accusing me of being "sexist". I'm not going to be intimidated by that sort of thing. And I'm certainly not going to respond to someone who yells at me by apologizing and backpedaling. SO not happening. If somebody wants a fight I WILL GIVE THEM ONE.

Woah there Rosengurtle Baumgartener! No need to go on a war path. This is a forums for discussion.

[1136342t54_]

Dragoonlordz wrote...
True but it doesn't cost you an arm or leg to have it in game if never wished to skip. To have a mature relationship expressed in game with hand in hand sex is part of almost all adult relationships is never a bad thing if it is an adult rated game which has such relationships. I'm just saying I found CDPR way of handling it far more mature than developers censoring it 'just incase' someone, somewhere is offended by nudity or sex just not offended by ripping someones head off and blood spurting out all over his or her face.

Its likely the dev doesn't see to much point in showing the sex scene when they could be doing something else. Sometimes I don't see the point but if its short like a minute or less then I'm okay with it. If its up to 4 minues then that is just unnecessary and I would have probably watched it once then skipped it everyother time.

However TW2 handles sex more maturely (imho) it to me does add realism and immersion to the world and the life and death nature of each day of Geralts existance, when deals with world issues such as sex like an adult with option of skipping if does offend. If was a rated 16 game or under than sure might have issue with it but it is an adult rated game as such I'm glad respected me enough for me to make the choice of showing or skipping.

I only really mind the sex if it happens to have a point to it and it relating to the story in some way. It doesn't necessarily adds maturity to the game in my mind.

[Lenimph]

-.- like I said it would be pointless

[Dragoonlordz]

Xilizhra wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

The fact that Jack's romance is a nightmarish ****fest doesn't make her character in general weak.

I felt her entire character was weak, and unsubtle.

Killing people, having a shaved head and saying "****" doesn't make you strong in the slightest. I pitied her, aka she is pathetic (not pejoratively), to me.

I think the fact that she's actually sane and more or less functional speaks well of her personal strength.

She wasn't sane imho, she was so mentally unstable it's the main reason we never got along in playthrough and ended with her cussing at me all the time.

[Siansonea]

1136342t54 wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...
It's not my job to be conciliatory. If he misunderstood me, that's his problem. He's the one who chose to interpret that I was talking about "all men" and "all women". And instead of asking "do you think this way of all men and all women?" he just came out guns blazing and accusing me of being "sexist". I'm not going to be intimidated by that sort of thing. And I'm certainly not going to respond to someone who yells at me by apologizing and backpedaling. SO not happening. If somebody wants a fight I WILL GIVE THEM ONE. 

That is blatantly being confrontational then for little reason. If he accused you then prove him wrong instead of adding to **** flinging contest that no one wants. It takes up posts and part of the discussion that is in the thread. You don't have to apologize or back pedal to respond to someone like that. You just prove them wrong and if they keep accusing when they are proven wrong by your explanation then just ignore them since they won't listen.

I understand what you're saying, but again, if someone comes at me and starts trying to intimidate me, it is on like Donkey Kong. I'm not looking for a teaching moment in that case, other than to teach them that if they want to be a bully, they should choose their targets more carefully. At that point, I don't care that they misunderstood what I said about the subject at hand, because they're being a bully, and that supercedes whatever topic was being discussed.

[Marionetten]

Lenimph wrote...

-.- like I said it would be pointless

Probably because it isn't true as both of them have strong and weak females.

[Costin_Razvan]

As for Witcher... again, there's no lesson that isn't cautionary to be learned from it when it comes to sex. Maybe it can do consequence plots well, but sex? **** no.

Have you played the game to know what's it about.

Cause if not I would like to ask you and those who haven't to just shut up about things they know squat about. Yes there's a sex scene, and yes it's that one but to think it just happen like that is laughable.

After days of running and fighting the two lovers finally find a moment for their own peace and decide to take advantage of it to make love, yes make love not just bloody sex, then they discuss about their relationship and where it is going.

[MerinTB]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

MerinTB wrote...

I'd argue Jack AND Miranda are weak. Considering how powerful / perfect they "are", they have weak personalities and sure cannot handle adversity.
Tali and Samara put Jack and Miranda to shame. Humans females don't represent well in ME2, IMO.

I agree.

I'd argue Samara is intellectually weak like any zealot. So ironically, the shy and awkward one, Tali, ends up being the strongest imo.

That's an argument on religion / moral codes / etc. that, this already being a controversial "sex" discussion, I'm not touching with a thirty foot adamantine pole.

Samara is tougher than Jack and Miranda because, no matter what she is confronted with, she doesn't back down or whine.  With her life experiences you could expect her to break down like Jack, but she holds strong to what she has to do and to her code.
There is an argument, that you are insinuating, for saying that sticking strictly to a set of beliefs or rules is "weak" or "cheating" - but, again, I think that's best not explored.

----

I cannot speak for TW2 as I've not played it yet (haven't finished TW1 yet) but I can say how much the ME2 characters (and DA2 characters, for that matter) feel like two-dimensional quasi-archetypes.

[Kaiser Shepard]

Xilizhra wrote...

All I can really say is that I hope that whatever Witcher is doing for their "romantic" plotlines, Bioware does the opposite. Luckily, being able to play as someone other than a straight man is an excellent start.

Why should your character's sexuality even matter in the slightest? Doesn't anyone here play these games simply to save the world, crush your enemies and preferably end up in a comfortable position of power?

---

And guys, I fail to see how Tali's character is stong in any way.

Modifié par Kaiser Shepard, 18 septembre 2011 - 01:17 .

[1136342t54_]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
I agree.

I'd argue Samara is intellectually weak like any zealot. So ironically, the shy and awkward one, Tali, ends up being the strongest imo.

Samara isn't really week intellectually. She understands the bad parts of the code and how it could lead her to even be forced to let her pusuers get away. I get the feeling most Justicars follow the code while at the same time knowing it isn't perfect but it gives them a sense of purpose that their life didn't have at all. Samara is intelligent and she displays that but she has to follow the code even though at times she wouldn't want to.

[ipgd]

Marionetten wrote...

ipgd wrote...

Where did I say that?

I assumed that was your point as I never compared Martin's writing to erotica. I compared his writing to The Witcher 2 in an attempt to show that it wasn't erotica as much as par for the course. Neither qualifies as erotica as far as I'm concerned. Apparently we agree on that.

Just responding to the "pointless sex scenes" comment. Cuz if they aren't there for any purpose other than sex for sex's sake, he's not doing a very good job of it. They're just not written to be erotic.

I mean, really, his food descriptions are infinitely more graphic and gratuitous than any of the sex scenes he writes. Those are obviously written for titillation purposes.


Having swallowed my 'hideous 3D models clipping into each other' issues, I went and watched a TW2 sex scene and I would say just from the cinematography that titillation is at least a part of it. I haven't actually played it so don't have context, and titillation isn't necessarily a bad thing, but it is very... male gazey. And Geralt is gross. And it's in 3D. *barfs*

[Siansonea]

Siansonea II wrote...

And for the record, there are shows like "Spartacus" and "True Blood" that I actually watch and like that feature nudity and sexual content. "Spartacus" especially. You see EVERYTHING, both boys and girls. But more often than not, the sex scenes serve a purpose. The scenes between Crixus and Lucretia come to mind. Contrast that with the scenes between Crixus and Naevia, and you'll see what I mean. One is about power and domination, and underscores the fact that even though Crixus is the top dog among the gladiators, he's still a slave, and literally a sex slave to the woman of the house. But he loves Naevia, and their scenes are about tenderness and a certain sense of impending doom and despair. There is a POINT to them.

I can't believe no one responded to this. People are taking me to task for my "tone" and all that, and then I write something pretty darned on-topic and get bupkiss.

[Siansonea]

jreezy wrote...

naledgeborn wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...

It's not my job to be conciliatory. If he misunderstood me, that's his problem. He's the one who chose to interpret that I was talking about "all men" and "all women". And instead of asking "do you think this way of all men and all women?" he just came out guns blazing and accusing me of being "sexist". I'm not going to be intimidated by that sort of thing. And I'm certainly not going to respond to someone who yells at me by apologizing and backpedaling. SO not happening. If somebody wants a fight I WILL GIVE THEM ONE.

Woah there Rosengurtle Baumgartener! No need to go on a war path. This is a forums for discussion.

Leave it alone. It'll be better that way. 

Will they never learn?

[ladyvader]

Siansonea II wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...

And for the record, there are shows like "Spartacus" and "True Blood" that I actually watch and like that feature nudity and sexual content. "Spartacus" especially. You see EVERYTHING, both boys and girls. But more often than not, the sex scenes serve a purpose. The scenes between Crixus and Lucretia come to mind. Contrast that with the scenes between Crixus and Naevia, and you'll see what I mean. One is about power and domination, and underscores the fact that even though Crixus is the top dog among the gladiators, he's still a slave, and literally a sex slave to the woman of the house. But he loves Naevia, and their scenes are about tenderness and a certain sense of impending doom and despair. There is a POINT to them.

I can't believe no one responded to this. People are taking me to task for my "tone" and all that, and then I write something pretty darned on-topic and get bupkiss.

That's because you made a point they really can't argue with. 

[Xilizhra]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

As for Witcher... again, there's no lesson that isn't cautionary to be learned from it when it comes to sex. Maybe it can do consequence plots well, but sex? **** no.

Have you played the game to know what's it about.

Cause if not I would like to ask you and those who haven't to just shut up about things they know squat about. Yes there's a sex scene, and yes it's that one but to think it just happen like that is laughable.

After days of running and fighting the two lovers finally find a moment for their own peace and decide to take advantage of it to make love, yes make love not just bloody sex, then they discuss about their relationship and where it is going.

Sex cards.

Why should your character's sexuality even matter in the slightest? Doesn't anyone here play these games simply to save the world, crush your enemies and preferably end up in a comfortable position of power?

That's well, and good, but when there's sex involved in the game? Why, yes, sexuality does matter when sex is brought up!

[1136342t54_]

Siansonea II wrote...

I understand what you're saying, but again, if someone comes at me and starts trying to intimidate me, it is on like Donkey Kong. I'm not looking for a teaching moment in that case, other than to teach them that if they want to be a bully, they should choose their targets more carefully. At that point, I don't care that they misunderstood what I said about the subject at hand, because they're being a bully, and that supercedes whatever topic was being discussed.

I don't get into confrontations that can easily be avoided. Even if someone is attempting to bully me I make them look incredibly stupid and ignore them. It saves me time and I'm satisfied by proving them wrong showing them how idiotic they are. Plus I am less likely to punch my computer or someone in real life.

[KnightofPhoenix]

MerinTB wrote...
Samara is tougher than Jack and Miranda because, no matter what she is confronted with, she doesn't back down or whine.  With her life experiences you could expect her to break down like Jack, but she holds strong to what she has to do and to her code.
There is an argument, that you are insinuating, for saying that sticking strictly to a set of beliefs or rules is "weak" or "cheating" - but, again, I think that's best not explored.

I certainly agree that she is tougher, at least emotionally speaking.
It's more like me believing manicheanism is intellectually weak, but it's my personal opinion. Agreed, that's best left unexplored. 

[1136342t54_]

ladyvader wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...

And for the record, there are shows like "Spartacus" and "True Blood" that I actually watch and like that feature nudity and sexual content. "Spartacus" especially. You see EVERYTHING, both boys and girls. But more often than not, the sex scenes serve a purpose. The scenes between Crixus and Lucretia come to mind. Contrast that with the scenes between Crixus and Naevia, and you'll see what I mean. One is about power and domination, and underscores the fact that even though Crixus is the top dog among the gladiators, he's still a slave, and literally a sex slave to the woman of the house. But he loves Naevia, and their scenes are about tenderness and a certain sense of impending doom and despair. There is a POINT to them.

I can't believe no one responded to this. People are taking me to task for my "tone" and all that, and then I write something pretty darned on-topic and get bupkiss.

That's because you made a point they really can't argue with. 

This.

[Dragoonlordz]

1136342t54 wrote...

However TW2 handles sex more maturely (imho) it to me does add realism and immersion to the world and the life and death nature of each day of Geralts existance, when deals with world issues such as sex like an adult with option of skipping if does offend. If was a rated 16 game or under than sure might have issue with it but it is an adult rated game as such I'm glad respected me enough for me to make the choice of showing or skipping.

I only really mind the sex if it happens to have a point to it and it relating to the story in some way. It doesn't necessarily adds maturity to the game in my mind.

IT isn't so much about story to me, it's more about immersion and a believable world and person within it. In the end Geralts life really was struggle from day to day being what he is and a person like that to me really would cling on to every shred of enjoyment and comfort he could while he still lives. Seeking the comfort of female touch in his world is hardly surprising to me and given his relationship with Triss hot and cold over the years being so very close, them actually being intimate seems fitting to me. Showing that aspect of the world just described to me makes the character and world more believable hence the term immersion. So even if not relating to progressing the story plot itself it is something I like in the game. The maturity aspect is giving the player the ability to see of skip it him or herself, puts the baton of responsability in the players hands (innuendo implied). It shows the respect the player enough to not hide it from the offset that side of life in the world they created of which desire you to be immersed in while playing.

P.s. Seems to be a lot of people in here talking about TW2 who haven't even played it and have admitted so, just don't go there. Play it then talk about it from the perspective of knowing what your talking about.

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 18 septembre 2011 - 01:24 .

[MerinTB]

Xilizhra wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

MerinTB wrote...

I'd argue Jack AND Miranda are weak. Considering how powerful / perfect they "are", they have weak personalities and sure cannot handle adversity.
Tali and Samara put Jack and Miranda to shame. Humans females don't represent well in ME2, IMO.

I agree.

I'd argue Samara is intellectually weak like any zealot. So ironically, the shy and awkward one, Tali, ends up being the strongest imo.

I think Liara edges Tali out, personally, though I can't say that I totally agree about the others either.

Liara has grown and hardened from 1 to 2.  I'm not sure I'd say she's stronger than Tali, but she has grown-up and become a strong and capable woman.  How she handles things in ME2 and LotSB... I can see calling her weak in how she reacts to Shepard (if they had been lovers), even if I wouldn't agree.

But Liara also isn't human.

I guess all you can say about Jack and Miranda is that, after all, they are "only human."

---

Demanding sex scenes in an RPG is about as mature, IMO, as demanding there be none.

But I don't think many in here are demanding either.

I don't find the sex scenes in ME2 nor DA2 very "mature", to try and get on topic.  DA:O was awkwardly done, IMO, because of the clothing.  ME1 did a decent job for a PG movie, no complaints from me.

The cards in TW1 don't bother me, I think they are alright, but I CAN see how many would find them offensive and wouldn't be upset if they weren't in the game.  But outside of them, the "sex scenes" are less revealing than ME1's (at least, as far as I was in the game.)

Modifié par MerinTB, 18 septembre 2011 - 01:29 .