852 réponses à ce sujet

[slimgrin]

Kaiser Shepard wrote...
And guys, I fail to see how Tali's character is stong in any way.

Hmm, this I cannot agree with, especially after the events of ME2...but it's a side note.

Modifié par slimgrin, 18 septembre 2011 - 01:24 .

[Costin_Razvan]

Sex cards.

Witcher 1, not 2.

[Seagloom]

ipgd wrote...

I mean, really, his food descriptions are infinitely more graphic and gratuitous than any of the sex scenes he writes. Those are obviously written for titillation purposes.

I just wanted to chime in on how true that is. Yegods does he enjoy describing food in nearly disturbing detail. I was in the middle of my reread of ACoK the other day and paused to think about whether his description of a character eating was subtext for sex. In comparison, GRRM's sex scenes lack that passion.

Modifié par Seagloom, 18 septembre 2011 - 01:28 .

[Xilizhra]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

Sex cards.

Witcher 1, not 2.

Ah, glorious; the series got less bestial when I wasn't looking. Marginally, anyway.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 18 septembre 2011 - 01:25 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Xilizhra wrote...

Costin_Razvan wrote...

Sex cards.

Witcher 1, not 2.

Ah, glorious; the series got less bestial when I wasn't looking. Marginally, anyway.

Because any game with a straight male PC is only marginally bestial, right?

[Marionetten]

ladyvader wrote...

That's because you made a point they really can't argue with.

Or because it's completely skewed. 90% of Spartacus is spent watching sweaty half-naked men duke it out. The female nudity definitely takes a backseat to the barrage of schlongs and glistening abs. And you know what? That's perfectly fine and Spartacus was one of my favorite shows of the season. But really, it's hardly some perfect example of equal pandering.

[Costin_Razvan]

Xilizhra wrote...

Costin_Razvan wrote...

Sex cards.

Witcher 1, not 2.

Ah, glorious; the series got less bestial when I wasn't looking. Marginally, anyway.

Anything else you would like to add? Perhaps Dry Humping Miranda was epic, or Kelly stripping for you in Shepard quarters was done in a very mature way. Or Garrus's romance scene actually was a scene and a not a fade to black ( which actually made it better for me ) or that the angst ridden sex with Fenris was actually romance and not sex, or that Anders going gay was totally in character for him ( sure, AWAKENING has a few words Bioware ), or that Merril is bi just like that with no explanation.

If you haven't played the Witcher 2 to understand what it's about I would suggest you kindly shut up.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 18 septembre 2011 - 01:29 .

[MerinTB]

Siansonea II wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...

And for the record, there are shows like "Spartacus" and "True Blood" that I actually watch and like that feature nudity and sexual content. "Spartacus" especially. You see EVERYTHING, both boys and girls. But more often than not, the sex scenes serve a purpose. The scenes between Crixus and Lucretia come to mind. Contrast that with the scenes between Crixus and Naevia, and you'll see what I mean. One is about power and domination, and underscores the fact that even though Crixus is the top dog among the gladiators, he's still a slave, and literally a sex slave to the woman of the house. But he loves Naevia, and their scenes are about tenderness and a certain sense of impending doom and despair. There is a POINT to them.

I can't believe no one responded to this. People are taking me to task for my "tone" and all that, and then I write something pretty darned on-topic and get bupkiss.

There's nothing wrong with this post - you aren't attacking anyone, misrepresenting anyone, etc.  So it's not baiting people - hence no angry responses.
There's not a question posed.  Without a question posed there's nothing to answer.

It's a fine point, and you stated your views on shows using sex and nudity properly.  It'd be silly to argue with you about that.

What response are you looking for?

Best I can give - I agree that True Blood does it (usually) very well.  I've not seen Spartacus.

[Xilizhra]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Costin_Razvan wrote...

Sex cards.

Witcher 1, not 2.

Ah, glorious; the series got less bestial when I wasn't looking. Marginally, anyway.

Because any game with a straight male PC is only marginally bestial, right?

I propose that it's extraordinarily difficult to have an exclusively straight male PC and get involved in issues of sex without bringing up misogynistic tropes, and it's even worse in a video game, as while video games may cater to different audiences, they're not nearly as diverse as those of books or movies. The vast majority will be aiming at male appeal, and a lot of commercial "male appeal" is misogynist in various ways.

Anything else you would like to add? Perhaps Dry Humping Miranda was epic, or Kelly stripping for you in Shepard quarters was done in a very mature way. Or Garrus's romance scene actually was a scene and a not a fade to black ( which actually made it better for me )

I actually think Jack's romance is probably worse than anything TW2 can dish out, and wasn't fond of the Miranda scene. Kelly was a labor of love done by a few people and didn't have nearly as many resources applied to her, so I find it harder to fault her.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 18 septembre 2011 - 01:31 .

[ladyvader]

Marionetten wrote...

ladyvader wrote...

That's because you made a point they really can't argue with.

Or because it's completely skewed. 90% of Spartacus is spent watching sweaty half-naked men duke it out. The female nudity definitely takes a backseat to the barrage of schlongs and glistening abs. And you know what? That's perfectly fine and Spartacus was one of my favorite shows of the season. But really, it's hardly some perfect example of equal pandering.

Which was the point.

[Costin_Razvan]

I propose that it's extraordinarily difficult to have an exclusively straight male PC and get involved in issues of sex without bringing up misogynistic tropes

The strongest female character in TW2 is a lesbian. She literary sent chills down my spines as I got to know her. ( and no my PC did not have sex with her nor was there any option to ).

[Marionetten]

ladyvader wrote...

Which was the point.

Erm, no? The point was to use Spartacus as an example of a show who does it right. It really doesn't as it's heavy on pandering. Hell, it sold itself on pandering. Far more than The Witcher 2.

[Xilizhra]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

I propose that it's extraordinarily difficult to have an exclusively straight male PC and get involved in issues of sex without bringing up misogynistic tropes

The strongest female character in TW2 is a lesbian. She literary sent chills down my spines as I got to know her. ( and no my PC did not have sex with her nor was there any option to ).

Well, dandy.

To be honest, TW2 pisses me off less because of misogyny and more because it's egregiously overused in negative comparisons against DA2. From what I've gathered, it does seem to suck less than TW1 in this regard, which I suppose is to be commended.

[slimgrin]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

I propose that it's extraordinarily difficult to have an exclusively straight male PC and get involved in issues of sex without bringing up misogynistic tropes

The strongest female character in TW2 is a lesbian. She literary sent chills down my spines as I got to know her. ( and no my PC did not have sex with her nor was there any option to ).

She might even be the strongest character in the entire game...a woman. So much for CDPR and sexism.

[Dragoonlordz]

ladyvader wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...

And for the record, there are shows like "Spartacus" and "True Blood" that I actually watch and like that feature nudity and sexual content. "Spartacus" especially. You see EVERYTHING, both boys and girls. But more often than not, the sex scenes serve a purpose. The scenes between Crixus and Lucretia come to mind. Contrast that with the scenes between Crixus and Naevia, and you'll see what I mean. One is about power and domination, and underscores the fact that even though Crixus is the top dog among the gladiators, he's still a slave, and literally a sex slave to the woman of the house. But he loves Naevia, and their scenes are about tenderness and a certain sense of impending doom and despair. There is a POINT to them.

I can't believe no one responded to this. People are taking me to task for my "tone" and all that, and then I write something pretty darned on-topic and get bupkiss.

That's because you made a point they really can't argue with. 

Has nothing to do with that, this thread is going at such a fast pace responses wise it's hard to catch every single post. Her post is silly in some regards now that I have read it. She likes nudity in those TV series because it has a plot basis in her mind. But that plot basis is no more so than the Geralt and Triss ones and I pointed that out about the nature of how Geralt lives and the risks of each day which is no different then "their scenes are about tenderness and a certain sense of impending doom and despair" in TW2 (excludes brothel ones) however even the brothel ones builds a more believable realistic world where poverty and despair encroach on everyones lives and seek comfort and gain through means at their disposal. And just like in her example those series there is an element of "more often than not". It's simple double standards on her end and subjective about what makes a difference to the story or not. Like Merin said there was no question so my reply is purely an opinion based on what read rather than answering any questions.

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 18 septembre 2011 - 01:34 .

[Siansonea]

MerinTB wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...

And for the record, there are shows like "Spartacus" and "True Blood" that I actually watch and like that feature nudity and sexual content. "Spartacus" especially. You see EVERYTHING, both boys and girls. But more often than not, the sex scenes serve a purpose. The scenes between Crixus and Lucretia come to mind. Contrast that with the scenes between Crixus and Naevia, and you'll see what I mean. One is about power and domination, and underscores the fact that even though Crixus is the top dog among the gladiators, he's still a slave, and literally a sex slave to the woman of the house. But he loves Naevia, and their scenes are about tenderness and a certain sense of impending doom and despair. There is a POINT to them.

I can't believe no one responded to this. People are taking me to task for my "tone" and all that, and then I write something pretty darned on-topic and get bupkiss.

There's nothing wrong with this post - you aren't attacking anyone, misrepresenting anyone, etc.  So it's not baiting people - hence no angry responses.
There's not a question posed.  Without a question posed there's nothing to answer.

It's a fine point, and you stated your views on shows using sex and nudity properly.  It'd be silly to argue with you about that.

What response are you looking for?

Best I can give - I agree that True Blood does it (usually) very well.  I've not seen Spartacus.

Well, I wanted to address the idea that I was coming from a place of "prudery" or "man hate", and only the most simplistic interpretation of my earlier posts would lead one to believe that was the case. I wanted to show that I'm not afraid of nudity (I'm a huge Renaissance art fan, I am quite accustomed to seeing the human form in all its glory) and I'm not afraid of intimacy/sex as a storytelling tool. But the Witcher 2 isn't doing any of that. It's an obvious attempt to titillate, and I suppose it's something that only a woman would notice, since the titillation aspect of it is clearly not developed from a female point of view at all. Do you think very many female players see themselves as Triss? She's not even the player character. And the camera's focus is on her from start to finish. That's not storytelling, that's pandering. Honestly, do people really not see it? I feel like there's an elephant in the room, and people are insisting it's just a lamp.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Xilizhra wrote...
I propose that it's extraordinarily difficult to have an exclusively straight male PC and get involved in issues of sex without bringing up misogynistic tropes, and it's even worse in a video game, as while video games may cater to different audiences, they're not nearly as diverse as those of books or movies. The vast majority will be aiming at male appeal, and a lot of commercial "male appeal" is misogynist in various ways.

And where is the astounding misogynism in TW2 (other than it being set in an actual medieval setting with people not taking women seriously)?
Before you say because Geralt saved Triss, first he doesn't have to, second, she saved his life too.
Because she left her neck exposed and was the submissive one in that particular scene (she's pretty dominating in TW1)?
Or because Geralt's genital was not shown? Triss' genitals were not shown either, and last I heard, many women find male chests attractive and yet we don't cover it up.

Sooo....where?
Perhaps because sorceresses dress in revealing ways, which is part of mage culture and is a method of manipulation, and I'd say many of them are more competent than male leaders.

Sure one could play Geralt as a James Bond character, but no one is forcing you.

[1136342t54_]

slimgrin wrote...
She might even be the strongest character in the entire game...a woman. So much for CDPR and sexism.

People can still make arguments for that. A strong female protagonist can in some ways be argued as in some ways sexist or very least pandering. In my opinion The Witcher isn't really sexist but it can have some parts about it that is pandering like many games do.

[KnightofPhoenix]

slimgrin wrote...

Costin_Razvan wrote...

I propose that it's extraordinarily difficult to have an exclusively straight male PC and get involved in issues of sex without bringing up misogynistic tropes

The strongest female character in TW2 is a lesbian. She literary sent chills down my spines as I got to know her. ( and no my PC did not have sex with her nor was there any option to ).

She might even be the strongest character in the entire game...a woman. So much for CDPR and sexism.

I wouldn't go for strongest, but definitely one of the most powerful characters in the game. And I love her to bits.
And yea, Philippa does send chivers down spines.

And she makes a remark about Triss that I am sure many would like: "Triss, stop thinking with your vagina"

[Xilizhra]

And where is the astounding misogynism in TW2 (other than it being set in an actual medieval setting with people not taking women seriously)?

My question to that: is it presented as a bad thing?

[Dragoonlordz]

MerinTB wrote...

I don't find the sex scenes in ME2 nor DA2 very "mature", to try and get on topic.  DA:O was awkwardly done, IMO, because of the clothing.  ME1 did a decent job for a PG movie, no complaints from me.

The cards in TW1 don't bother me, I think they are alright, but I CAN see how many would find them offensive and wouldn't be upset if they weren't in the game.  But outside of them, the "sex scenes" are less revealing than ME1's (at least, as far as I was in the game.)

DA2 I actually found amusing like Hawke stroking clothed/armoured Isabellas back like she was suffering from a rash. Merill I found too creepy her figure body shape and twig like arms plus alien neck I could never romance her for fear she would put her creepy boney hands and arms of doom on my Hawke and suck out his soul.

[Xilizhra]

Future Guy wrote...

ladyvader wrote...

Marionetten wrote...

ladyvader wrote...

That's because you made a point they really can't argue with.

Or because it's completely skewed. 90% of Spartacus is spent watching sweaty half-naked men duke it out. The female nudity definitely takes a backseat to the barrage of schlongs and glistening abs. And you know what? That's perfectly fine and Spartacus was one of my favorite shows of the season. But really, it's hardly some perfect example of equal pandering.

Which was the point.

So would this be considered as a misandric trope?  It seems some think that the opposite is a misogynistic trope.

It depends on how it's used.

[Marionetten]

Xilizhra wrote...

My question to that: is it presented as a bad thing?

Geralt loathes misogyny as much as racism which is what got him killed in the first place. So yes, I'd say it's presented as a very bad thing from the perspective of the character you're actually playing. The fact that most of the world is accepting of it is a different matter altogether.

Modifié par Marionetten, 18 septembre 2011 - 01:39 .