20 réponses à ce sujet

[JohnZ117]

Of the things that bug me about the DA series, some of the biggest pertain to how sparse Denerim and Kirkwall seem to be.  There are no theatres, music halls, or street performers, nor galleries or eateries, and the only place to dance seems to be in Denerim's Alienage.  The only social activities that a regular citizen can engage in seem to be shopping, dinking, praying or screwing.  Athlatka had a theater and a circus. The Imperial City had an arena, theater, school, and the Scholar's Garden. So why was this overlooked?

[esper]

Feraldan is a backwater poor country.
In Kirkwall anything fun takes place behind closed doors...
I am guessing that theater and other such activities are related to Orlais.
As for schools and a Scholer's Garden. I don't think that the Chantry would ever allow knowlegde to flower outside of the Chantry - they are pretty old fashioned that way. Education properly belong to the Chantry in the Countries under the white divine.

[Zanallen]

Well, you have to remember that Denerim is the capital city of a backwater fly speck of a county who's principle export is wet dog smell. Kirkwall, while a major city, is hardly a cultural mecca. The idea of theater for most of these people is probably a raised stage in a clearing near the center of town. Probably the same stage where they hold executions. They most likely get their music in the form of traveling minstrels. The Chantry most likely handles what little schooling their is, though the rich may hire tutors. Street performers probably went the way of that majority of the city's population and just aren't shown.

[JohnZ117]

esper wrote...

I am guessing that theater and other such activities are related to Orlais.

Denerim was a part of Orlais' empire, and I find it somewhat hard to believe that this aspect of their culture wouldn't have been kept.

Zanallen wrote...
 Street performers probably went the way of that majority of the city's population and just aren't shown.

The most logical place for such a performance would be the marketplace.

[esper]

JohnZ117 wrote...

esper wrote...

I am guessing that theater and other such activities are related to Orlais.

Denerim was a part of Orlais' empire, and I find it somewhat hard to believe that this aspect of their culture wouldn't have been kept.

Zanallen wrote...
 Street performers probably went the way of that majority of the city's population and just aren't shown.

The most logical place for such a performance would be the marketplace.

I doubt the Orlesian would make a theater in the backwater dog land why they are so babaric and has no sense of fashion. And if they did the Fereldans properly destroyed it. There seemed to be a lot of bitternes in those who remembered the wars.

Modifié par esper, 17 septembre 2011 - 10:49 .

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

JohnZ117 wrote...


Denerim was a part of Orlais' empire, and I find it somewhat hard to believe that this aspect of their culture wouldn't have been kept.

The orlesians weren't really settling Ferelden, they were exploiting it. They did not really leave much because they were too busy pillaging the country to leave time for building theaters and galleries. They did not care enough about Ferelden to improve it. About the only legacy they left was the building of Amaranthine.

The most logical place for such a performance would be the marketplace.

You're also forgetting that we go to Denrim in the middle of a Blight and a Civil War. Somehow, I don't think street mimes and hobos strumming the banjo for coin are going to be on people's minds much.

[The Xand]

JohnZ117 wrote...
The only social activities that a regular citizen can engage in seem to be shopping, drinking, praying or screwing.

That's pretty much all we do here in Scotland tbh, but minus the praying.

I suppose if there were ever any plays or special events they'd have been held in the main square though. also it's worth bearing in mind that Ferelden is based on Anglo-Saxon England and I'm not sure if dark age England really had much entertainment other than pubs (where they'd also get fed) and markets.

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

The Orlesians weren't really settling Ferelden, they were exploiting it. They did not really leave much because they were too busy pillaging the country to leave time for building theaters and galleries. They did not care enough about Fereldento improve it. About the only legacy they left was the building of
Amaranthine.

That's maybe a little harsh actually. If the Orlesian occupation of Ferelden is analogous to the Norman occupation of England then they would have been building up the country's infrastructure, although brutally cracking down on the natives not to mention importing nobles and their own people.

esper wrote...

I doubt the Orlesian would make a theater in the backwater dog land why they are so babaric and has no sense of fashion../../../images/forum/emoticons/tongue.png.
And if they did the Fereldans properly destroyed it. There seemed to be
a lot of bitternes in those who remembered the wars.

That would be my belief as to why there's not much trace of Orlesian culture, it's like how when Christianity and Islam spread to conquered lands they defaced and erased earlier pagan temples and works of art.

Modifié par The Xand, 17 septembre 2011 - 12:56 .

[Sith Grey Warden]

The Xand wrote...
That's maybe a little harsh actually. If the Orlesian occupation of Ferelden is analogous to the Norman occupation of England then they would have been building up the country's infrastructure, although brutally cracking down on the natives not to mention importing nobles and their own people.

But it's not entirely analogous. King Meghren cared only about killing those darn rebels and getting his cousin to let him come home again. His leadership was cruel, and I doubt he thought the Fereldans could even build a theater of decent quality. And since the Emperor sent him there as a punishment, I doubt he would let Meghren bring any Orlesian entertainment with him. Previous Orlesian Kings of Ferelden may have ruled under similar circumstances.

Or the Fereldan Dog Lords, having no appreciation of Orlesian culture, simply destroyed everything the Orlesians built out of spite when they got their country back.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

The Xand wrote...

That's maybe a little harsh actually. If the Orlesian occupation of Ferelden is analogous to the Norman occupation of England then they would have been building up the country's infrastructure, although brutally cracking down on the natives not to mention importing nobles and their own people.

It is not analogous to the Norman occupation of England except vaguely. In the Stolen Throne, they were real bastards who did very little except exploit and pillage Ferelden. They did very little building of Ferelden, the occupation stripped it of alot of things. The only infrastructure the left was the city of Amaranthine. Other than that, they had no interest in developing Ferelden. They were idiots.

[Addai]

The cities have been pretty disappointing, it's true. I had hoped for a lot more with Kirkwall being the only major location in the whole game.

[TEWR]

Zanallen wrote...

Well, you have to remember that Denerim is the capital city of a backwater fly speck of a county who's principle export is wet dog smell. Kirkwall, while a major city, is hardly a cultural mecca. The idea of theater for most of these people is probably a raised stage in a clearing near the center of town. Probably the same stage where they hold executions. They most likely get their music in the form of traveling minstrels. The Chantry most likely handles what little schooling their is, though the rich may hire tutors. Street performers probably went the way of that majority of the city's population and just aren't shown.

There's apparently a University in Orlais that has been drawing the ire of the Chantry for what they're teaching.

[thats1evildude]

As TV Tropes reminds us, the trend of limited sources of entertainment in video games is hardly new.

It's always important to remember that the city you see in the game is kind of an abstraction; you're only visiting the places in-game that are "quest-relevant." There's other places you never go. For instance, I know from a dialogue with Merrill that she's visited the Viscount's gardens, but these are nowhere to be found in Hightown. I mean, if Kirkwall or Denerim only consisted of the neighbourhoods you could visit, they'd be peasant villages rather than cities.

So likely there are opera houses or restaurants or museums, but you never see them. Myself, I think Kirkwall could have benefited from having an underground fight ring, but c'est la vie.

Modifié par thats1evildude, 19 septembre 2011 - 06:37 .

[Boiny Bunny]

JohnZ117 wrote...

Of the things that bug me about the DA series, some of the biggest pertain to how sparse Denerim and Kirkwall seem to be.  There are no theatres, music halls, or street performers, nor galleries or eateries, and the only place to dance seems to be in Denerim's Alienage.  The only social activities that a regular citizen can engage in seem to be shopping, dinking, praying or screwing.  Athlatka had a theater and a circus. The Imperial City had an arena, theater, school, and the Scholar's Garden. So why was this overlooked?

With respect to venues, it is never implied that Kirwall is lacking in any of these things (or Denerim for that matter) - they simply are not relevant to the quests of the Warden or Hawke, and so are not available for travel to.

The cities are definately bare though in terms of street traffic.  I believe a Bioware dev confirmed that an early build of DA2 had much more bustling streets, but most of the NPCs were removed because it wan't running well on consoles or low end PCs.

[Stoomkal]

I cannot believe you made this thread without nominating my favorite underdeveloped DA city... Amaranthine.

I am sorry the *port* city of Amaranthine...

Everyone forgets that first part - because there wasn't any damn water in the whole city!

Not even a puddle... I would've at least liked *a boat* or a *sailor*...

[JohnZ117]

Boiny Bunny wrote...

JohnZ117 wrote...

Of the things that bug me about the DA series, some of the biggest pertain to how sparse Denerim and Kirkwall seem to be.  There are no theatres, music halls, or street performers, nor galleries or eateries, and the only place to dance seems to be in Denerim's Alienage.  The only social activities that a regular citizen can engage in seem to be shopping, dinking, praying or screwing.  Athlatka had a theater and a circus. The Imperial City had an arena, theater, school, and the Scholar's Garden. So why was this overlooked?

With respect to venues, it is never implied that Kirwall is lacking in any of these things (or Denerim for that matter) - they simply are not relevant to the quests of the Warden or Hawke, and so are not available for travel to.

I only commented/complained about their lack of visibility, but absence of evidence is evidence of absence.  And any developer worth their salt could integrate these venues into quests and/or give them their own questlines.

[Darkly Tranquil]

I think this falls under the "not worth the effort of coding" category of things that seem to be absent in computer RPGs (like toilets). When the designers are choosing between spending time working on the important parts of the game like combat and cutscenes, or street performers, it is no great surprise that the jugglers and mimes don't make the cut.

That said, I would really like it if DAs cities could be more populated than they are. Assassins Creed has shown that it is easily possible to make heavily populated cities in games.

[Stoomkal]

Making a port-city landlocked is not good design...

[Foolsfolly]

@ the OP:

Sir, I honestly think Denerim was ok. It was a few load zones and that's all it needed to be. It looked big. It served its purpose.

Kirkwall's a different story since the entire game took place there over a course of 7 years. It needed to feel larger. Its districts more distinct, its slums more lived in, and the place needed to change more. I don't think the tone was right.

This has been discussed to death. We all know Kirkwall wasn't implemented correctly. And I think BioWare would even agree. Some of the concept art for Kirkwall looked fantastic and nothing like the barren, sparely populated tilesets we saw in the finished game.

[Foolsfolly]

Stoomkal wrote...

Making a port-city landlocked is not good design...

It's not landlocked it has a docks and there are beaches.

Level design could have done that better. Get the feel of the port city more, show its size and scale... but, dude, you arrive to the place on a boat. And the Gallows is an island (easy to forget that because we never see it as an island except from a certain spot in the Docks).

[Stoomkal]

Yah - I was talking about Amaranthine in Awakening, not Kirkwall in DA2 "dude".