133 réponses à ce sujet

[Rockworm503]

I'm of the mind that its your body so do what you want to it. Of course the end of DX:HR opened the possibility of someone else controlling you.
You have to go to LIMB clinics to get a chip in your head to make all this work for you. Of course it can be used to manipulate people so the danger element was there.
Of course I'm talking completely about the game when your looking for a realistic answer. I have none and I don't think we'll get any on this subject in our life time.

[Bryy_Miller]

Here's the way I see it: the only conflict that seems to come up with this issue is the fact that people might try to do whatever they want, such as looting and rampant crime. The secondary idea that society will be further segregated is more realistic.

[Homebound]

if human augmentation becomes some sort of standard, then it needs to be available to all period without limitations to wealth etc. imagine if only 1 exclusive group of people got these advancements? the concept of equality at all levels would be skewered.

[marbatico]

Hellbound555 wrote...

if human augmentation becomes some sort of standard, then it needs to be available to all period without limitations to wealth etc. imagine if only 1 exclusive group of people got these advancements? the concept of equality at all levels would be skewered.

well, to be honnest, i'm fine with law enforcers getting superhuman like augmentations and the rest of us just getting the things that make life easier.

Modifié par marbatico, 17 septembre 2011 - 10:37 .

[Seagloom]

If there are any ethical questions it is bound up in other issues such as potential separation due to class division as Hellbound mentioned. Poverty creating a population of human have nots against enhanced beings would be a huge issue. Regulation might also be a problem. Weapons and certain modifications should be strictly illegal. Ideally, modification should be used for medical reasons, or to improve overall quality of life. Turning a person into a super being for the hell of it is a useless application outside niche scenarios such as warfare.

Where should we stop and how far is too far? That is impossible to answer outside context. I have no interest in endlessly speculating on generalities.

In my opinion humans are defined by two qualities: our brains and our use of tools. Modifying our bodies is not intrinsically unethical. I do not see anything unethical about modifying our brains either as long as we retain our sense of self in the process. We already do this to an extent with plastic surgery, organ transplants, and chemicals that do everything from ease the symptoms of illness to suppressing undesirable behaviors by altering brain chemistry. Fantastical modifications are merely another step on a road we embarked on long ago.

Modifié par Seagloom, 17 septembre 2011 - 10:54 .

[FlintlockJazz]

Question for everyone: how many of you wear glasses? Whether you wear them or not is not already a form of augmentation? It is using an artificial, man-made device to alter your perception of the world. I have metal bars implanted in my ankle to hold it together, is that not augmentation? I should be a cripple by 'Nature's' demands after I broke it but the doctors altered that, how many of you would have turned that down? Those of you who use smartphones, how would it be any different if you could have it implanted in you so you could have with you all the time?

Nature is a ****. She dictates our worth by how many kids we have, 'rewarding' those who are too incompetent or selfish to use a condom by allowing them greater influence over the genetic destiny of our race over those who refrain (I always felt sorry for those who refuse to have kids because of the impact it would have on the planet, their altruism only leads to their qualities not being passed onto the next generation, no one to pass their ideals onto the next generation). I say lets not be dictated to, lets not define ourselves by how society or biology demands, but how we want to be. Lets redefine what it means to be human, because if we don't we are doomed to forever be screwed by our 'humanity' (despite what Star Trek tells us, humanity isn't actually all that great...) and the fact that, despite how 'successful' we appear now, we cannot continue in this form indefinitely, our actions on this planet and to ourselves are catching up with us...

Modifié par FlintlockJazz, 17 septembre 2011 - 11:10 .

[KenKenpachi]

** Image removed as spam, see Site Rules #2 **


20 to 1 a Lock down before the day is out unless the mods are asleep. As this is already heading for political and ethical grounds.

Modifié par Selene Moonsong, 17 septembre 2011 - 01:27 .

[KenKenpachi]

Luc0s wrote...

KenKenpachi wrote...

20 to 1 a Lock down before the day is out unless the mods are asleep. As this is already heading for political and ethical grounds.

Yes of course this is going to political and ethical grounds, because that's what the subject of this entire thread is about in the first place. I asked some ethical and philosophical questions about human augmentation in my OP and I'm curious to see how people think about this.

But surely, that doesn't mean this thread will get locked anytime soon, not if we keep this classy and mature. Can you do that, KenKenpachi?

You obviously have not read the Forum Rules, the state NO Topics of this nature are allowed Period. The only reason that previous where are we going thread even lasted as long as it did is some of the mods fell sleep behind the wheel.

However if you want my honest opinion on the issue.

I see it much like say, bio-organic research... I think it should be used and developed but, well it needs limits, it needs wisedom to it. I mean yes it can help others walk, for those that can't have an eye transplant to see, creat new limbs for those who lost one in battle or in other events.

But it needs limits, much as IMO plastic surgery does.

Such as women who go out with nothing major wrong with them and getting boob and face jobs, versus a person who had there face scraped on the road. One is a waste, the other is a need.

Such as with lets say a bionic arm, or computer interface chip. The Later should not be allowed under any circumstance. We must not forget we are fleash and blood. Not Machine. And in the Former, only if you lost your limb in an unpurposeful manner should you get a replacement.  Manners like these need to be clear cut.

Say you have a person who gets regenerating limbs (an actul form of research going on now), Mechanical eyes and hearing superiour to any person, or even worse the DARPA Chip that kills the pain sensors and emotions of its hosts, an effective mind control sollution, that promotes pain when one does not fallow orders, and kills pain and emotion to keep a man running past death.

Could you trust such a person? Could you say you would not use such power for your own ends and means? Think long and hard on it. I know fully well while I may mean well to start with that power, that invunerability it would corrupt me. As it would many others. The path to hell is often paved with good intentions.

And if these technologies are only made for use by the Rich, or the "rulling" class, how long till we all are Serfs and slaves or wiped out? Human nature condems us in most manners. That being said I support the technolgies of both types to a limited scale, but not for body replacement, or to birth a Master Race. However I look at it with Caution, we humans for the most race headlong into power, always wanting more, more and more.

But do we even understand and can use responsiblely what we have now?

No.

In fact for all the gloating, schools and literacy we are no smarter than our ancestors from 5000 years ago. Should a plauge happend in Urban Area's that killed off 20% of the population and knocked out the power, humanity would go down hill fast. I know many on this site are Smart, or so they think. I admit to my limitations, but let me ask you this.

Can you build a Computer?  Sure maybe you can.

Can you, build the componets?, refine the minerals to make these componets? Mine these Materials?  Operate the power plant to run it? Repair said plant? Make the lines to bring power from it? Mine the Materials to run it? In the case of a Nuke plant handle issues with it? Can you then defend said resources? Build the weapons to do so? Build the clothing to protect what forces you have? Maintane ammo stocks?  I really could go on and on here. Must of us "know" how say the net works, but not how it really works, or how to deal with the millions of small pictures it takes to make it. **** how about atomic arms? You have ignorance on both sides of those.

So at the end, do humans have the wisedom, authority and judgement to use these far off technologies, or are we digging our own graves with ignorance and glee? Those are the Questions I ask. Are we ready? Would we no longer have our humanity?, which is already very lacking in many. The Unknown is to be overcame, but is also to be feared. And to be taken with Caution, honestly the lack of judgement and guidance in most of what we have now and our pace of advancement is worrying in some fields. While our stagnation in others when coupled with those advancements is even more so when taken together.

But one thing is sure, if a leader without wise advisors, thinks he can win a battle with little losses, or that he has the means to be stronger. They will strike. And down that road of the one who fallows his ambitions without knowing anything about it. Surely that is the path to hell. And Reguardless of your Religious views, there is a Devil. He is Easy to find and seen in the deeds of many men. Some who are to themselves doing good, only to leave broken bodies and more pain in its wake. So while I support the above advancements, I urge caution. Just as I do with research into AI's. An AI can learn, be it from Hitler, or Ghandi, you can't control which, and yet some among us without thinking in the long term and the "what ifs"  charge head long into this, as do some reach foolishly searching for immortality.

The Greatest threat to humankind, is not nature, or a chunk of rock from space, it is humankind its self, and our petty "wants".

Modifié par KenKenpachi, 17 septembre 2011 - 01:51 .

[KenKenpachi]

Metaphorically, but as various "Enlighten Governements" have shown some people it can be literally.

Just ask some Albanians about the Turks, some Jews from the 40's, the people of  Cambodia, bulk of Africa, etc, etc.

Modifié par KenKenpachi, 17 septembre 2011 - 02:15 .

[RAF1940]

Bad idea.

[jacquesct]

I'm all for human guided evolution. Functional body modification has been something I've been interested in for quite a few years.

For some research, you might want to view Quinn Norton's lecture on Bodyhacking at 23C3 ( ).Interestingly, the Bodyhacking thing came about from Lukas Zpira, a body piercer, who's already done the obvious current functional mods (magnets, RFID, etc), but, more interestingly, he's working on an implant that replaces an area of your skin with a metal receptacle, in which you can, for example, place your ipod.

This is just the kind of stuff that the guys with no money come up with. You only need to look at companies like Touch Bionics to see how far actual prosthetics have come in such a short time.

I fundamentally disagree with what KenKenpachi says about only people that need plastic surgery should get it, or only people who suffer an accident should get a prosthetic (if they ever develop a prosthetic that's better than an actual limb). To me, that particular point of view is so incredibly narrow minded as to beggar belief.

As a species, humans have always strived to better themselves, and I really believe that functional modification (in any manner) is the very real natural progression of that.

[KenKenpachi]

jacquesct wrote...

I'm all for human guided evolution. Functional body modification has been something I've been interested in for quite a few years.

For some research, you might want to view Quinn Norton's lecture on Bodyhacking at 23C3 ( ).Interestingly, the Bodyhacking thing came about from Lukas Zpira, a body piercer, who's already done the obvious current functional mods (magnets, RFID, etc), but, more interestingly, he's working on an implant that replaces an area of your skin with a metal receptacle, in which you can, for example, place your ipod.

This is just the kind of stuff that the guys with no money come up with. You only need to look at companies like Touch Bionics to see how far actual prosthetics have come in such a short time.

I fundamentally disagree with what KenKenpachi says about only people that need plastic surgery should get it, or only people who suffer an accident should get a prosthetic (if they ever develop a prosthetic that's better than an actual limb). To me, that particular point of view is so incredibly narrow minded as to beggar belief.

As a species, humans have always strived to better themselves, and I really believe that functional modification (in any manner) is the very real natural progression of that.

So it would be no nevermind to you if I just replaced my arms with biotic ones, then I used them to say chuck cars at you? Or that its A-okay for me to just throw away money to make my nose pretty, while you have kids who are born with holes in their lips who are denied as they can't pay for it? Or how about the soldier that lost half of his face in the line of duty?

The Smacks of being a man of poor character if so. And I would not wish to see you with any sort of power.

Do you see anything wrong with the Chip Darpa is making to put into our soldiers? It basically amounts to slavery, and pushes them past human limits that will kill them afterwards.

Sure it might be narrow minded (though I prefer Single minded ), but as I urge caution, and being humble. A part of what makes us human is our mortality, it can cause a number of us to do greater things. There is honor in this of making use of the limited time you are given. For there to be life you must also have death.

On a side note will totally laugh when that ****** gets an infection and dies. So much for the Man-machine Race.

Hacking parts of your body off "Just because" and adding metal or machine in its place is not Evolution.

It is mutilation.


And I'll leave it at that as I don't see this thread doing any better than the last one. Humanity is heavily devided on a number of issues and this is one. Who knows maybe one day the events from the game that had the tech junkies fighting the robotic nuts, and normal folks in the middle, don't remember the name. Point is there is no "one good idea" that everyone is or will fallow, and good luck forcing it. Or good luck in getting everyone to tolerate everyone. It never will happen, short of pure and endless Martial force.

So I leave this topic be, and wait to see if it can outlast the previous one on this issue.

Modifié par KenKenpachi, 17 septembre 2011 - 02:57 .

[jacquesct]

KenKenpachi wrote...

So it would be no nevermind to you if I just replaced my arms with biotic ones, then I used them to say chuck cars at you? Or that its A-okay for me to just throw away money to make my nose pretty, while you have kids who are born with holes in their lips who are denied as they can't pay for it? Or how about the soldier that lost half of his face in the line of duty?

The Smacks of being a man of poor character if so. And I would not wish to see you with any sort of power.

Do you see anything wrong with the Chip Darpa is making to put into our soldiers? It basically amounts to slavery, and pushes them past human limits that will kill them afterwards.

Sure it might be narrow minded, but as I urge caution, and being humble. A part of what makes us human is our mortality, it can cause a number of us to do greater things. There is honor in this of making use of the limited time you are given. For there to be life you must also have death.

On a side note will totally laugh when that ****** gets an infection and dies. So much for the Man-machine Race.

Hacking parts of your body off and adding metal or machine in its place is not Evolution.

It is mutilation.

Well, why would you be throwing cars at people in the first place? What you're suggesting is that suddenly, people have new capabilities and somehow they'd only decide to do "bad" things with those.

Giving someone a new arm isn't going to turn them "evil", they'll still be people fully capable of morality.

As far as plastic surgery, why would I begrudge someone having surgery on their nose? It's their money, they can do what they want with it. My child is my problem, not societies. Similarly with a soldier, when you sign up to the army, you know what you're putting yourself in for. Regardless, if you do find yourself wounded, there are hundreds of societys and charities out there willing to help you. Suggesting that someone is selfish because they choose to spend their own money on bettering themselves is ridiculous.

What chip are you talking about? I follow DARPA's announcements quite closely, alongside being subscribed to alarge number of tech related RSS feeds, and I've never heard of this chip your talking about. Any chance you've got a link I can read?

Why should there be death? Why are you so happy being beat down? Don't you want to better yourself?

The mutilation thing is frankly ridiculous by the way, mutilation would be removing someone's arm. Not removing it to replace it with something better. If you're interested in mutilation, you'll have an absolute field day with sufferers of body integrity identity disorder, a number of which willingly have limbs amputated because the limbs feel absolutely alien to them.

How do you feel about Nootropics by the way? Enhancing the human mind through chemical means, ie through using a drug like Modafinil.

Modifié par jacquesct, 17 septembre 2011 - 02:57 .

[Ulous]

I'm all for technology but not human augmentation if it is within our current global/political environment, once we have abolished banks, politics, poverty, inequality, military, country's, forced competition and slavery and achieved adequate social progress and human well being for everyone, then we can look at human augmentation.

Until then it's to dangerous.

[Kronner]

Everything's fair game IMHO.

[KenKenpachi]

Let me find the link to the chips, its part of the Continuous Assisted Perfomance project being developed, theres a link on it on Cracked.com that leads to a link on it, but there was a news release on it like...8 months ago from a guy that works on the project that went into the details on it. Basically its a chip that works on ultra sonic pulses to...well divert the brains attention to various area's. But no news lately so I'm hoping it was shot down. I'll PM It once I find it.

As to throwing cars...if I could, why not? Not saying I would, just that power corrupts and some people do things for ****s and giggles.

As to bettering yourself, or constant pain and what not. I know that feeling better than you do. Maybe I'll tell you about it some time. But I litterally am in pain on a daily bases. Yet I still pratice martial arts, I still run, I do anything and everything to better myself.

Via the means I am given. The Artifical is no victory. It is a cop out. But this may be influanced by the fact I fallow the code of Bushido and ninpo. As to the use of drugs, that largely depends on the purpose and the why's. I for example don't take pain pills for the problems I have, as I think of it as a weakness. But yeah let me get that link for you. Which also effects how I think of how others spend. You should strive for order and the greater good. Throwing your money around at the expense of others is  a shameful thing.

Modifié par KenKenpachi, 17 septembre 2011 - 03:10 .

[jacquesct]

Ken, I could pick up a knife right now and go murder my neighbours. I don't, for obvious reasons, just like I wouldn't throw a car at people if I possessed limbs strong enough to do that.

An artificial limb would just be a tool, just like any tool we now possess.

Why artificial? We're organisms that function on a chemical basis, there's nothing fake or artifical about introducing new chemicals to the system to achieve a specific function.

Looking forward to the link

[Kaiser Arian XVII]

Augmentation is like electric guitar ... fake.
I don't want to see hulks in our streets, and suddenly they turn chaotic and evil and do whatever they wish because of their super-powers. Eventually it will ruin our species.
But in some cases it can be used to upgrade a weak human into average.

[KenKenpachi]

As to the knife heh, you might not, I might not, but a guy I know would set people on fire for the hell of it, and is from a rich family and can get away with it, him I wouldn't want to give any superpowers too.

Also what Ulous said in the below post. Its like owning an assualt weapon, you can challange the police if you wish and win if all they have are pistols.


Oh well apperantly and thankfully it was called off, there is a link on some nutjob site that keeps acting like its happening, but it only tracks back to a few credible sources or outdated web links, I will not post that one unless you want it pmed to you. It covers the chips, I mentioned, but also some **** thats way out there.,But here is an artical on the current and much less sinister project, though I didn't see it on the Active project lists, maybe its been canned too on the wiki list, like alot of other projects here lately.  I'm sure you can search wiki yourself for canned programs .

http://science.dodli...ing-ultrasound/

I'm posting this openly for all to see, as I don't want to promote hysteria over a shut down project, and will admit when I have acted in Error. The original form of this project called for the chip to be implanted I guess the the joint chiefs said no to that.

Modifié par KenKenpachi, 17 septembre 2011 - 03:26 .

[Ulous]

jacquesct wrote...

Ken, I could pick up a knife right now and go murder my neighbours. I don't, for obvious reasons, just like I wouldn't throw a car at people if I possessed limbs strong enough to do that.

An artificial limb would just be a tool, just like any tool we now possess.

Why artificial? We're organisms that function on a chemical basis, there's nothing fake or artifical about introducing new chemicals to the system to achieve a specific function.

Looking forward to the link

Yes but if you stabbed your neighbours the police would come and bust yer ass, if you could throw cars you would not fear such a thing because you could throw cars at them as well, having a knife would not give you enough power to overcome law enforcement.

Modifié par Ulous, 17 septembre 2011 - 03:24 .