133 réponses à ce sujet

[Chuvvy]

I think Deus EX HR shows a very accurate depiction of the state of the world in twenty years, minus all the Illuminati stuff. That being said, I might cut off my arm and have a badass augmented one strapped on, if it were enough of an improvement. Forearm blades would be a good start.

Modifié par Slidell505, 17 septembre 2011 - 06:45 .

[Fishy]

I think we're to obsessed with 'perfection'.
It can have nasty result (Think michael jackson)

i won't be alive but i donm,t want to alive either if woman wear Nike Leg and Walmart tities.

Modifié par Suprez30, 17 septembre 2011 - 07:00 .

[The Baconer]

I'm not wealthy enough at the moment to take advantage of such augmentations, were they to exist.

So right now I'll say it's unethical. Come ask me again in a decade or so. ;/

Modifié par The Baconer, 17 septembre 2011 - 08:32 .

[Kathleen321]

Would you really chop off your perfectly good limbs for robotic ones if you had the money? I certainly wouldn't. Adam says at one point in the game something along the lines of "I always wonder when I touch something if its real." Imagine trying to touch the cheek of your lover and not feeling a thing, or only having artificial sensations imitating real touch.
I personally disagree with using the limb augments on perfectly healthy people. People who are already missing limbs though, they deserve this technology.
Other augments such as mind augments and eye augments, I have to admit I would be tempted to get those. My eyesight is already really bad and I fear I will be blind when I'm old. If you have vision that is negative on the 20/20 spectrum, (such as -7/-7) surgery doesn't do any good. (such as laser surgery) I wish something like eye augments existed, then I wouldn't have to bother with contacts or surgery or anything. If I could get mind augments I would get a dictionary implanted into my brain because I'm an English major and my spelling is horrible. lol

[C9316]

Perfection, so overrated...

[RAF1940]

Kathleen321 wrote...
I personally disagree with using the limb augments on perfectly healthy people. People who are already missing limbs though, they deserve this technology.

Pretty much this.

[slimgrin]

randumb vanguard wrote...

I really can't think of any reason that would make augmentation not ethically correct.
The only reason I think one would think it is because it makes us "not human" to that, I say to look in the history books... America's treatment of blacks and african americans... The third Reich... The crusades (let's kill each other in the name of a book that says not to kill each other!). Is being human REALLY a good thing?
And besides, it is our minds which makes us who we are, if we do not augment our brains, then the humanity issue doesn't even matter.

But to get straight to the point...: I think people should be allowed to do whatever (I repeat) WHAT EVER they want to do with their body. The government has no place in deciding such a thing.

But what about steroids? They're an augmentation, and illegal.

[lobi]

slimgrin wrote...
But what about steroids? They're an augmentation, and illegal.

Tell that to livestock farmers.
Just when I thought Body modders had calmed down to just the occaisional peircing, Deus Ex.

Modifié par lobi, 17 septembre 2011 - 10:13 .

[Fishy]

randumb vanguard wrote...

I really can't think of any reason that would make augmentation not ethically correct.
The only reason I think one would think it is because it makes us "not human" to that, I say to look in the history books... America's treatment of blacks and african americans... The third Reich... The crusades (let's kill each other in the name of a book that says not to kill each other!). Is being human REALLY a good thing?
And besides, it is our minds which makes us who we are, if we do not augment our brains, then the humanity issue doesn't even matter.

But to get straight to the point...: I think people should be allowed to do whatever (I repeat) WHAT EVER they want to do with their body. The government has no place in deciding such a thing.

There's always a draw back .Smoke taste good but make you addicted and destroy your lung . It's always lead to exploitation.

Maybe it's would not be a drug  . Maybe it's would only be an employer only hiring augmented human . It's would lead to more injustice and retardness. I`m someone who believe in equality and human right.

To do whatever they want with their body most of the time come from the mouth of naivety and ignorance.

Modifié par Suprez30, 17 septembre 2011 - 10:19 .

[Kathleen321]

Haven't heard anyone mention neuropozyne addiction. This is one of the biggest downsides to human augmentation. Even if amputees get new limbs they have to take this expensive drug the rest of their life or their body will reject their limbs and organs. What are your thoughts about this?

[Zaxares]

I think that human augmentation with mechanical/electronic devices is inevitable. Ever since the dawn of human history, we humans have always been seeking ways to triumph over our environment and our biology, from the simplest things like building a fire and a shelter to keep oneself warm at night, to more advanced techniques like conquering disease through medicine and educating ourselves. Replacing parts of our bodies with synthetic or electronic devices that work even better is only the next step.

Is it ETHICAL to do so? That's a harder question. If you haven't yet, watch this video, as it gives you a very good summary of the possible downsides of widespread augmentation. (Ignore the part about Neuropozyne addiction though. That's fictional, and I'll get to it more later.) The main issue here is that people may be pressured to give up their perfectly healthy, functioning body parts because of a fear that "if I don't get augmented, I will be left behind." That, to me, is the fundamental issue that needs to be addressed; the problem of the "haves" vs the "have nots", yet this is a problem that has persisted with human society since the beginning of civilisation. There has always been stratification of human status and desirability, whether it's through wealth, class, religion, physical attractiveness or talent. Each time, human society has always found a way to evolve and survive. We need to mitigate and control the downsides of human augmentation, certainly, but I accept that not everybody can be saved. Evolve or die. That's always been the mantra of life.

As for the issue of implant rejection, while it's certainly possible for any foreign material in the body to be rejected, it's nowhere near as severe as what DXHR claims. Thousands of people in the world have hip replacements or pacemakers implanted in their body, and most suffer no problem whatsoever. For those that do, taking immuno-suppressant drugs usually fixes the issue. I have a hard time believing that future implants will trigger such severe reactions in people that it would kill them, especially since it's usually an allergic reaction to the materials used in the implants (like titanium) that's causing the rejection, not the implant itself.

If anything's to blame for things getting so out of hand with Neuropozyne in the DXHR world, it's for governing bodies like the WHO not stepping in and forcing VersaLife to release the formula so it can be manufactured more cheaply by competing companies and thereby make the drug more affordable for everyone.

Modifié par Zaxares, 18 septembre 2011 - 02:00 .

[Pious_Augustus]

KHHHHHAAAAAAAAANNNNNNNN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[marshalleck]

Hellbound555 wrote...

if human augmentation becomes some sort of standard, then it needs to be available to all period without limitations to wealth etc. imagine if only 1 exclusive group of people got these advancements? the concept of equality at all levels would be skewered.

It already is, by nature, in terms of physical and mental potential of humans. Some of us are stronger than others. Some of us more intelligent. Others, better at art, music, business, whatever. 

Equality and egalitarianism are entirely man-made concepts to which the nature of our existence owes no allegiance.

Modifié par marshalleck, 18 septembre 2011 - 05:15 .

[jacquesct]

Kathleen321 wrote...

Would you really chop off your perfectly good limbs for robotic ones if you had the money? I certainly wouldn't. Adam says at one point in the game something along the lines of "I always wonder when I touch something if its real." Imagine trying to touch the cheek of your lover and not feeling a thing, or only having artificial sensations imitating real touch.
I personally disagree with using the limb augments on perfectly healthy people. People who are already missing limbs though, they deserve this technology.
Other augments such as mind augments and eye augments, I have to admit I would be tempted to get those. My eyesight is already really bad and I fear I will be blind when I'm old. If you have vision that is negative on the 20/20 spectrum, (such as -7/-7) surgery doesn't do any good. (such as laser surgery) I wish something like eye augments existed, then I wouldn't have to bother with contacts or surgery or anything. If I could get mind augments I would get a dictionary implanted into my brain because I'm an English major and my spelling is horrible. lol

Artificial sensations of touch? You realise all "touch" is is an electric signal travelling through your nervous system, right? 
We've already developed prosthetic arms that enable the wearer to "feel" as if it were a "real" hand.
http://www.tgdaily.c...sation-of-touch

Kathleen321 wrote...

Haven't heard anyone mention neuropozyne addiction. This is one of the biggest downsides to human augmentation. Even if amputees get new limbs they have to take this expensive drug the rest of their life or their body will reject their limbs and organs. What are your thoughts about this?

Neuropozyne is a plot device in a video game, it's got nothing to do with reality.


I think people need to step away from Deus Ex for a moment when they're thinking about this particular conversation.

[marshalleck]

jacquesct wrote...

Artificial sensations of touch? You realise all "touch" is is an electric signal travelling through your nervous system, right? 
We've already developed prosthetic arms that enable the wearer to "feel" as if it were a "real" hand.
http://www.tgdaily.c...sation-of-touch

can't get your link to load, but if this is the same technology I've read about before (stimulating nerves in the chest that transmit signals from the hands) unfortunately it's quite far from being useful in any meaningful way. In tests, some subjects felt all manner of sensation from what might be expected (a sensation of a hand touching an object) to fingers being pulled apart, stretched backward,  skin stretched and scraped, etc. It has a LONG way to go, and it seems it may never be quite perfected since the brain and nervous system reweire themselves in different ways from person to person. There's no preset way to create the desired stimulus.

[jacquesct]

marshalleck wrote...
can't get your link to load, but if this is the same technology I've read about before (stimulating nerves in the chest that transmit signals from the hands) unfortunately it's quite far from being useful in any meaningful way. In tests, some subjects felt all manner of sensation from what might be expected (a sensation of a hand touching an object) to fingers being pulled apart, stretched backward,  skin stretched and scraped, etc. It has a LONG way to go, and it seems it may never be quite perfected since the brain and nervous system reweire themselves in different ways from person to person. There's no preset way to create the desired stimulus.

I know which thing you're talking about but no, that's not what I linked.

Try this:
www.tgdaily.com/general-sciences-features/44547-prosthetic-hand-gives-sensation-of-touch

[marshalleck]

Heh, I did copy+paste, I think my ISP is just being wonky. The site just won't load. I'll try it later, since I'm quite curious.

[jacquesct]

Here's the contents of the article:

Tel Aviv University researchers have successfully connected a prosthetic hand to existing nerve endings, allowing the user to actually feel it.

Robin af Ekenstam of Sweden, the project's first human subject, has not only been able to complete complicated tasks like eating and writing, but says he can also 'feel' his fingers once again.

"Perfectly good nerve endings remain at the stem of a severed limb," says Professor Yosi Shacham-Diamand of TAU's Department of Engineering. "Our team is building the interface between the device and the nerves in the arm, connecting cognitive neuroscience with state-of-the-art information technologies."


"After only a few training sessions, he is operating the artificial hand as though it's his own," says Prof. Shacham-Diamand. "We've built in tactile sensors too, so the information transfer goes two ways. These allow Ekenstam to do difficult tasks like eating and writing."

Ekenstam said, "I am using muscles which I haven't used for years. I grab something hard, and then I can feel it in the fingertips, which is strange, as I don't have them anymore. It's amazing."

With the help of the TAU team, the SmartHand project was able to integrate recent advances in today's 'intelligent' prosthetic hands with the basic features of a flesh-and-blood hand. Four electric motors and 40 sensors are activated when the SmartHand touches an object, not only replicating the movement of a human hand, but also providing the wearer with a sensation of feeling and touch.

While the prototype looks very 'bionic' now, the scientists plan to equip it with artificial skin that will give the brain even more tactile feedback. The researchers will also study amputees equipped with the SmartHand to understand how to improve the device over time.

Here's a much better link:
www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/11/091104132708.htm





 

[marshalleck]

jacquesct wrote...

Here's the contents of the article:

Tel Aviv University researchers have successfully connected a prosthetic hand to existing nerve endings, allowing the user to actually feel it.

Robin af Ekenstam of Sweden, the project's first human subject, has not only been able to complete complicated tasks like eating and writing, but says he can also 'feel' his fingers once again.

"Perfectly good nerve endings remain at the stem of a severed limb," says Professor Yosi Shacham-Diamand of TAU's Department of Engineering. "Our team is building the interface between the device and the nerves in the arm, connecting cognitive neuroscience with state-of-the-art information technologies."


"After only a few training sessions, he is operating the artificial hand as though it's his own," says Prof. Shacham-Diamand. "We've built in tactile sensors too, so the information transfer goes two ways. These allow Ekenstam to do difficult tasks like eating and writing."

Ekenstam said, "I am using muscles which I haven't used for years. I grab something hard, and then I can feel it in the fingertips, which is strange, as I don't have them anymore. It's amazing."

With the help of the TAU team, the SmartHand project was able to integrate recent advances in today's 'intelligent' prosthetic hands with the basic features of a flesh-and-blood hand. Four electric motors and 40 sensors are activated when the SmartHand touches an object, not only replicating the movement of a human hand, but also providing the wearer with a sensation of feeling and touch.

While the prototype looks very 'bionic' now, the scientists plan to equip it with artificial skin that will give the brain even more tactile feedback. The researchers will also study amputees equipped with the SmartHand to understand how to improve the device over time.

Here's a much better link:
www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/11/091104132708.htm





 

Thanks! What an excellent site. Check this out: 
http://www.scienceda...10220142809.htm

[jacquesct]

That is rather awesome.

Neuroplasticity is definitely one of the most interesting things to consider when you think about human augmentation. So far people have only really talked about standard replacement prosthetics, but things like extra arms, or simply functional extra things (tentacle arms in your back) could be possible too.

If the magnet implants showed anything, it's that people can develop new senses if the correct stimulii is created, I don't see why in the future, humans wouldn't be capable of experience the world around us in a way that's completely an utterly different to what we currently understand.

Plato's Cave and all...

[Eternal Phoenix]

TJPags wrote...

Elton John is dead wrote...

RAF1940 wrote...

Bad idea.

Just this. This sums it all up.

I'm not against technology, the crafting material for technology is here for a reason: for us to use it. However, guns and nuclear bombs have also been made from these resources. Not everything that is technology is good. There has to be limits, if there are no limits, then things get out of control.

Augmentations would be good to give to someone who has lost an arm or leg. I mean creating something that replaces that arm and actually functions like one is good but wouldn't governments be trying to create supersoldiers too? They gave their soldiers guns, they would surely give them these augmentations too and then people who don't even need such augmentations would be getting them.

With the technology of augmentation discovered, all sorts of people would soon be able to access it. Criminals and rich people and they'll be creating God knows what. I don't fancy seeing people running about with their flesh contained inside metal so that they can't be killed.

Corinthians 6:19 says that we are a temple for The Holy Spirit. I know some people would use this verse to say that we shouldn't change who we are and I agree but don't temples need to be repaired and fixed when the brick crumbles? Yes. So I support something that gives someone an arm - if they lost one - but I don't supporting giving weapon augmentations to anyone (who is to say a police officer won't use it for bad things, police are corrupt remember as are our governments) nor should people with bodies that function perfectly get augmentations.

So, should people not be allowed to have plastic surgery unless they have an injury?  Should a person who can wear glasses not be allowed to have laser eye surgery?

I'm not really a fan of saying only certain people can have something, only for certain reasons.

Everyone can wear glasses mate. If a person is wearing glasses, of course they should have LE surgery if they can afford it. I think the argument you were looking for is, "Shouldn't anyone be able to have LE surgery" in which the answer is:

No.

If you have good eyes, you don't need an improvement. Verily, if your body functions normal, you'd need no augmentations. It's as simple as that. It's like giving money to a rich man. He doesn't need it.

randumb vanguard wrote...

I really can't think of any reason that would make augmentation not ethically correct.
The only reason I think one would think it is because it makes us "not human" to that, I say to look in the history books... America's treatment of blacks and african americans... The third Reich... The crusades (let's kill each other in the name of a book that says not to kill each other!). Is being human REALLY a good thing?
And besides, it is our minds which makes us who we are, if we do not augment our brains, then the humanity issue doesn't even matter.

But to get straight to the point...: I think people should be allowed to do whatever (I repeat) WHAT EVER they want to do with their body. The government has no place in deciding such a thing.

Well technically, The Crusades were about land, greed and money just like today's wars and giving humans augmentations would just further people's greed. One person suggested that police should have weapon augmentations. Give them that and where does it end? We'd end up with Robocop and Evil Adam Jensen running about our streets killing people.

You say we should be able to do whatever we want to our body. So you agree with self harm? There has to be limits. What is human? Humans are different from animals because we can reason and understand. We are not like animals who could eat and eat and eat. We need limits. Eating too much makes you fat. You're free to do it but it'll kill you just as smoking and alcohol will. The government has no place in deciding such a thing but moral teachers would still disagree.

We need limits to what we can build. It's because of people not following such a rule that humanity has built nuclear bombs.

Modifié par Elton John is dead, 18 septembre 2011 - 01:25 .