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Tallis face modeled after Felicia is impressive. Will it set standards for DA3?


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#51
Dragoonlordz

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ipgd wrote...

Dragoonlordz wrote...

I can but I won't, because I have the freedom to choose how I view and voice a situation and have no intention of being policed into using words only acceptable to someone else because of their own lack of understanding how the art style in something can remind you of and give you the feeling of something else.

Then explain to me the commonalities between Dragon Age 2's art style and cartoons, because I have studied art for basically my entire life and I don't see anything that relates to actual cartoons. Besides that other people have recently started using the word "cartoon" to describe what they do not like about DA2, and you are repeating those complaints without actually understanding them.


Post above your one.

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 17 septembre 2011 - 04:50 .


#52
ipgd

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FitScotGaymer wrote...

@ipgd

Except the Elves. They dont look realistic at all.

Yes they do. The way the elves are rendered by the engine is identical to how humans are rendered by the engine. A divergent standard of proportions does not make elves "less realistic", just less human. As a fictional fantasy race, they have no "realistic" standard of proportion.

#53
ScotGaymer

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@UpsettingShorts.

Sorry I meant in the sense of how they look versus each other and the other looks of the other species and characters of the game universe.

Not realistic in the sense of the real world lol.

@Ipgd.

No they dont.

It is NOT realistic for every single Elf in the game to look like it has Downs Syndrome. It is not realistic for a (according to the lore) race defined as "pretty" by human standards to be almost universally ugly.

So no they arent. Not even within the realms of the universe.

Modifié par FitScotGaymer, 17 septembre 2011 - 04:49 .


#54
ipgd

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Dragoonlordz wrote...

Post above your one.

Now explain to me how any of that is "childlike".

Or better yet, stop using those stupid ****ing meaningless labels and say what you actually mean. Negativistic buzzwords are not a substitute for describing what your problems actually are.

#55
Dragoonlordz

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ipgd wrote...

Dragoonlordz wrote...

Post above your one.

Now explain to me how any of that is "childlike".

Or better yet,[/i] stop using those stupid ****ing meaningless labels and say what you actually mean. Negativistic buzzwords are not a substitute for describing what your problems [i]actually are.


Did so in the manner I chose to use already. Just because you cannot grasp the meaning behind it is not my problem.

You could say the word "red" and first thing that pops to mind for someone might be tomato, you might look at a red ball rolling across ground and think of a clown nose; the same principle applies. Just because you don't like the term or phrase the image seen reminds someone of, so be it thats your issue not mine.

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 17 septembre 2011 - 04:59 .


#56
seraphymon

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ipgd wrote...


"Cartoon" is not a subjective quality in ~*the eye of the beholder*~. It is a specific word that refers to a specific kind of media, and its use as an adjective applied to other media would imply that it shares commonalities with the popular aesthetics of that medium. Which Dragon Age 2 does not, at all. "Cartoony" is not the only kind of stylization.


Which is why we or shoulda i say I dont use the word cartoon but cartoony. Because its not fully there. But its certainly went that direction. Your right that cartoony is not the only kind or only used stylization. But its the one that pops out most for me. And evidentally it is the eye of beholder or to each their own sorta thing, because we are on a disagreement on this.


 

Really, neither of the games are particularly verisimilitudinous, but I don't really understand any of the assertions that DA2 was a regression in that regard. It was a horizontal progression in its worst areas, and a huge step forward in its best (DA2's face and body models are significantly more naturalistic than DAO's, for one).



I disagree with that statement completely. DAO to me was almost real to me at certain points. Particulary the battel of Ostagar. Others of course not so much. Was it dated graphics, maybe. Im not spoiled by graphics as much as other people seem to be nowadays. Some areas was improvements, but i wont say a huge step forward. And in other areas a huge step backwards. The body and face to me were siginifically more unnaturalistic and less real than DAO, mainly because of the unrealistic body models. DAO shared this mainly cause of the generic bodies from character to character, but for some it look more realistic.

How? What specific parts of its art assets resemble popular comic books in any way?



Popular comic books. Nothing really. But really it wouldnt be far off to make one as seen in Facebook games  and prolly the anime movie coming up.

#57
ipgd

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FitScotGaymer wrote...

It is NOT realistic for every single Elf in the game to look like it has Downs Syndrome.

Why? Do you know any real elves to compare to this "realistic standard"? Where is this definitive elf proportion gospel you seem to have?

It is not realistic for a (according to the lore) race defined as "pretty" by human standards to be almost universally ugly.

I don't think elves are ugly. Funny how that works -- some people have opinions that are different from yours! If you think really hard, I think you could almost extrapolate that to the idea that some cultures actually have different standards of beauty!

Just like there are cultures where very obese women are viewed as an ultimate standard of beauty, it is not "unrealistic" for a fictional fantasy culture that evolved alongside elves for thousands of years to have a standard of beauty that is not identical to the modern western aesthetic.

#58
Nyreen

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The elf redesign was one of the worst decision made by the developers. Bug eyes and Merrill's stick arms. *shudders* Considering more and more BW characters have real life models, I wouldn't be surprised if years from now it was an entirely modeled companion cast.

Tallis's eyes are disturbing. But other than that she's fine.

#59
ScotGaymer

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@ipgd.

It is obvious you dont want to listen because someone is disagreeing with you because if you had actually read what I said you wouldnt have said that.

Oh well.

Whatever.

The DA2 Elves suck.

#60
DamnThoseDisplayNames

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As long as they don't add goatee ears and D cups to every female elf I'm calm.

#61
esper

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I do have doubts about Tallis, but it is not how she looks. She looked nice and in my opinion realistic enough for a game.
My doubts about Tallis is about her personality. Fromt the glimpses we saw in the trailer and the youtube video I am not sure I am going to like her.

#62
ipgd

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Dragoonlordz wrote...

Did so in the manner I chose to use already. Just because you cannot grasp the meaning behind it is not my problem.

It is your problem, if you actually want to have a discussion about any of this. Language is used to communicate, and if the words you are using are not communicating what you actually mean effectively you need to pick different words.

But of course, you're not interested in a discussion. You're interested in validation, which you think you'll get by repeating other people's arguments.


seraphymon wrote...

Which is why we or shoulda i say I dont use the word cartoon but cartoony. Because its not fully there. But its certainly went that direction. Your right that cartoony is not the only kind or only used stylization. But its the one that pops out most for me. And evidentally it is the eye of beholder or to each their own sorta thing, because we are on a disagreement on this.

Sometimes when people disagree one of them is wrong.

Which is you, in this case. Seriously, I'm still waiting for anyone to describe to me how DA2's art style relates to cartoon aesthetics in any way. "It just reminds me of cartoons" is not actually a descriptive comparison. If you can't answer the question of "why" you are probably making a fallacious comparison that has no basis in anything other than whatever negative associations you have with cartoon and comic art.

I disagree with that statement completely. DAO to me was almost real to me at certain points. Particulary the battel of Ostagar. Others of course not so much. Was it dated graphics, maybe. Im not spoiled by graphics as much as other people seem to be nowadays. Some areas was improvements, but i wont say a huge step forward. And in other areas a huge step backwards. The body and face to me were siginifically more unnaturalistic and less real than DAO, mainly because of the unrealistic body models. DAO shared this mainly cause of the generic bodies from character to character, but for some it look more realistic.

Are you kidding? Have you looked at the DAO body models?
Image IPB
Image IPB
DAO's body models are so anatomically atrocious it's frightening. DA2 was completely, unambiguously a massive improvement in that respect. DAO's body models were not people, they were a dog's breakfast of deformed clavicles and missing armpits.

Anyone who seriously argues that DAO's models are more anatomically accurate than DA2's has either never seen a human being before or is so blinded by nostalgia goggles that they cannot acknowledge anything that was wrong with DAO.

Popular comic books. Nothing really. But really it wouldnt be far off to make one as seen in Facebook games and prolly the anime movie coming up.

What specific parts of its art assets resemble facebook games in any way?


FitScotGaymer wrote...

@ipgd.

It is obvious you dont want to listen because someone is disagreeing with you because if you had actually read what I said you wouldnt have said that.

Oh well.

Whatever.

The DA2 Elves suck.

I did read what you said. What you said made no sense. Elves cannot be "realistic" because they do not actually exist. Elves cannot be held to the standard of "realisitic" human proportions because elves as defined by the Dragon Age artists have proportion standards that are different from humans.

Artists designing a fantasy world can set a different standard of proportion for their fantasy races that are different from humans, because fantasy races don't actually exist. When this differing standard of proportion has been set, the realistic standard ceases to be the human. Elves in DA are only realistic in comparison to the proportion standards as defined by the artists.

You know, you can just not like something without having to call it "unrealistic". Realism is not an inherently positive quality that absolves something of all its issues.

Modifié par ipgd, 17 septembre 2011 - 05:20 .


#63
DamnThoseDisplayNames

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When this differing standard of proportion has been set, the realistic standard ceases to be the human.

Were't you the one who cried about dwarven armpits?

Realism is not an inherently positive quality that absolves something of all its issues.

It is when it comes to anatomy or character personalities and interactions with each other.

Modifié par DamnThoseDisplayNames, 17 septembre 2011 - 05:28 .


#64
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FitScotGaymer wrote...

@ipgd.

It is obvious you dont want to listen because someone is disagreeing with you because if you had actually read what I said you wouldnt have said that.

Oh well.

Whatever.

The DA2 Elves suck.


So, what would a "realistic" elf look like to you? Are Tolkien's elves realistic, where they look like beautiful humans with pointed ears? What about The Elder Scroll's elves, where the High elves are tall and golden and the Dunmer grey skinned and red eyed? What about World of Warcraft, where elves have amazingly long eyebrows and no irises or pupils to speak of?

#65
ipgd

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DamnThoseDisplayNames wrote...

Were't you the one who cried for dwarven armpits?

Every body model in DAO has awful armpits.

Dwarves and elves are particularly bad because they are just awkwardly rescaled human models, but that's only a compounded effect on top of the already terrifying human models they're based on.

It is when it comes to anatomy or character personalities and interactions with each other.

I am saying you are allowed to dislike something irrespective of whether it is realistic or not. It does not have to fall into the category of "unrealistic" to justify your scorn.

#66
seraphymon

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Sometimes when people disagree one of them is wrong.

Which is you, in this case. Seriously, I'm still waiting for anyone to describe to me how DA2's art style relates to cartoon aesthetics in any way. "It just reminds me of cartoons" is not actually a descriptive comparison. If you can't answer the question of "why" you are probably making a fallacious comparison that has no basis in anything other than whatever negative associations you have with cartoon and comic art.



Who the hell are you judge wether or not I am wrong or not. We have given you our reasons, and as someone else has said, just becuase you fail to grasp it is not our fault. You dont have to accept our reasons, but that doesnt make us any less wrong. I have no negative associations with cartoons or comic art as i play other games with them. But i dont feel they belong in an M rated game such as this.

Are you kidding? Have you looked at the DAO body models?
Image IPB
Image IPB
DAO's body models are so anatomically atrocious it's frightening. DA2 was completely, unambiguously a massive improvement in that respect. DAO's body models were not people, they were a dog's breakfast of deformed clavicles and missing armpits.

Anyone who seriously argues that DAO's models are more anatomically accurate than DA2's has either never seen a human being before or is so blinded by nostalgia goggles that they cannot acknowledge anything that was wrong with DAO.


You having said that means you are unwilling to even accept another persons viewpoint. Theres no point in a discussion really. But yes i have played DAO, and while DA2 had more unique body models doesnt make em realistic. The busty beauties or the elf design to me, is unrealistic plain and simple  The fact that you have to degrade anyones view point as wrong or saying stupid comments such as what you have said says to me you are acting very childish.

Modifié par seraphymon, 17 septembre 2011 - 05:35 .


#67
Dubya75

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What would be really cool is if they modelled some characters (maybe NPCs) in DA3 or future DA2 DLC after the DA devs, like Mike Laidlaw, David Gaider, and Chris Priestly...ok maybe not Chris, but definitely the others!
A bit like Stan Lee making cameos in all the Marvel movies....no? OK, I'll get my coat...

Modifié par Dubya75, 17 septembre 2011 - 05:35 .


#68
DamnThoseDisplayNames

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What would be really cool is if they modelled some characters (maybe NPCs) in DA3 or future DA2 DLC after the DA devs, like Mike Laidlaw, David Gaider

That way we could make a mod where you can kill NPC's and slay them the most gorious way possible, yes.

#69
DamnThoseDisplayNames

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So, what would a "realistic" elf look like to you?

It's a simple matter of a retcon. We had a game where elves were't over-the-top comically twisted creatures, but a more of generic sort. And generic usually are easely likeable by everyone. If first game presented us with Elf Quest like creatures, everyone would be calm with DA2.

Modifié par DamnThoseDisplayNames, 17 septembre 2011 - 05:46 .


#70
ipgd

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seraphymon wrote...

Who the hell are you judge wether or not I am wrong or not. We have given you our reasons, and as someone else has said, just becuase you fail to grasp it is not our fault. You dont have to accept our reasons, but that doesnt make us any less wrong. I have no negative associations with cartoons or comic art as i play other games with them. But i dont feel they belong in an M rated game such as this.

You are wrong because you have failed to present any sort of convincing evidence to support your arguments. You have made comparisons that should be demonstrable but have not yet managed to do so. I have no reason to believe your arguments because they are unpersuasive and not built upon any sort of facts, just parroting and a weak "it's my opinion so it's sacred" defense.

Not all arguments are opinions. Opinions can also be wrong.

You having said that means you are unwilling to even accept another persons viewpoint. Theres no point in a discussion really. But yes i have played DAO, and while DA2 had more unique body models doesnt make em realistic. The busty beauties or the elf design to me, is unrealistic plain and simple  The fact that you have to degrade anyones view point as wrong or saying stupid comments such as what you have said says to me you are acting very childish.

Just because you have a viewpoint does not mean your viewpoint is correct. I do not accept your viewpoint because your viewpoint is wrong. DAO's body models are factually anatomically innacurate, whether you're comparing it to a medical standard or an idealized artistic one. They are missing entire muscles, the ones that are there don't connect attach to the bones in the right places, the proportions are innacurate, and all of those problems are only amplified when you get to the female models (which share the same rig as the male models, which is incredibly problematic, because women do not have the same skeletal structure as men) or the elf/dwarf models (which are awkwardly resized from the human models).

You could say you like DAO's body models better, which I would still think is ridiculous, but the assertion that they are more anatomically accurate than DA2's models is a factually verifiable statement and demonstrably wrong. That is not an opinion.

Modifié par ipgd, 17 septembre 2011 - 05:49 .


#71
Dragoonlordz

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ipgd wrote...

Or better yet, stop using those stupid ****ing meaningless labels and say what you actually mean. Negativistic buzzwords are not a substitute for describing what your problems actually are.


ipgd wrote...

...they were a dog's breakfast...


Hypocrite much?


ipgd wrote...

Dragoonlordz wrote...

Did so in the manner I chose to use already. Just because you cannot grasp the meaning behind it is not my problem.

It is your problem, if you actually want to have a discussion about any of this. Language is used to communicate, and if the words you are using are not communicating what you actually mean effectively you need to pick different words.


It is not my problem that you choose to not understand or simply can't understand because I chose to not make it my problem in which case if you actually want to understand but can't then it is your problem.

But in your case it's more like I'm talking to a brick wall and if do so a million different ways doesn't mean the brick wall is any more likley to understand me.

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 17 septembre 2011 - 06:00 .


#72
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Brockololly wrote...

I like that Tallis looks not quite as much like the freaks that were the DA2 elves, but it just looks like somebody pasted Felicia Day's face on a DA2 elf and I think its pretty damn creepy looking. And thats just based on the still screenshots. I'm going to guess it'll be even more Uncanny Valley when you see it moving.


I thought it looked less uncanny in motion, not more. (1:15)

#73
ipgd

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Dragoonlordz wrote...

Hypocrite much?

There is a difference between using a term facetiously and a word that is used deliberated, repeatedly, and unironically without relation to its actual definition as a substitute for "anything I don't like".

As far as I know, people have yet to start parroting my posts in every thread on the board and replacing any semblance of a cohesive argument with "dog's breakfast" as a meaningless shorthand. I have also yet to go into a multiple-page argument where I try to defend how DAO's body model anatomy is literally a dog's breakfast.

It is not my problem that you choose to not understand of simply can't understand because I chose to not make it my problem in which case if you actually want to understand but can't then it is your problem.

But in your case it's more like I'm talking to a brick wall and if do so a million different ways doesn't mean the brick wall is any more likley to understand you.

What.

If you really have no desire to communicate clearly in interest of having a productive argument stop participating in arguments.

#74
TeamRyan

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Dragoonlordz wrote...

Talking to a brick wall a million different ways doesn't mean the brick wall is any more likley to understand you.


Circular arguments, and personal attacks won't help that brick wall to be understood any clearer either.

#75
chart4ever

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Yea maybe she could look more like other elves in Dragon Age franchise but in the end it doesn't rly matter. In a few days after the release someone will upload a "fixed" to her face - more elven.

Modifié par chart4ever, 17 septembre 2011 - 06:15 .