122 réponses à ce sujet

[Flamedance]

The Saerrilith mod is completely serious and complete;y horrible. Avoid it like the plague. While the Saerilith mod promotes paedophilia, the Imoen mod does the same with incest. Words fail me for that one. To be avoided at all cost.

[Humanoid_Taifun]

Also, be careful with the term pedophelia. Legally it may be labeled as such, but actual pedophelia is the sexual desire in prebubescent children.

[morbidest2]

I'm not crazy about High School romances intruding on BG2 either, but I believe that Juliette was all of 13 in the story that Shakespear based his play on.
I rarely go back to play BG1, but I believe that PC was 18 at the start. Unless Jon I. used aging spells as part of the torture process, he/she and Imoen are probably 19 in BG2.
What I've always found a little creepy is that Viconia (drow), Aerie (elf) and Jaheira (half-elf) are probably around 40 or 50. If male, our poor PC is surrounded by hungary cougars! Can't really blame him for preferring someone much closer to his own age, like Saerrilith or Nalia or ....
However, I too find the Imoen "romance" repugnant, since they were raised almost as brother and sister. But on the old forums this topic was argued to exhaustion, with the pro "incest"party maintaining that all he got from Bhaal was part of his soul, not any DNA, so he and Imoen are not genetically related in any way. Poo-Bah.

[HoonDing]

Wouldn't a 40 or 50 year old elf be the equivalent of a 15-year old human?

[Humanoid_Taifun]

The protagonist is introduced in BG1 as being 20 years old.

[Mana Garn]

morbidest2 wrote...

However, I too find the Imoen "romance" repugnant, since they were raised almost as brother and sister. But on the old forums this topic was argued to exhaustion, with the pro "incest"party maintaining that all he got from Bhaal was part of his soul, not any DNA, so he and Imoen are not genetically related in any way. Poo-Bah.

So not physically brother and sister and Imoen being a close childhood friend = incest? 

I know many couples that started off like that, guess i should go tell them they make me sick. 

Sad that the imoen romance mod was never continued for ToB, probably one of the few character that doesnt creep me out for a possible romance.  Also when i think about it, godanm peeps at bioware had a hard on for elve at the time with the only romance being a drow, a winged elf with no wing and a half elf.

[Seagloom]

Indeed. A forty or fifty year old elf would be fairly young. Drow age and mature faster, so Viconia would be older, socially speaking, but not a cougar. Considering elven adulthood is past a century, they are ridiculously young by elven standards. The exception is Jaheira. Half-elves age slower than humans do, but mature much faster than elves.

I consider the Imoen romance incest, myself. Granted, I thought BioWare itself hinted at Imoen harboring a romantic interest in Charname based on a dialogue she has with a certain returning party member in Throne of Bhaal. But Lukas Kristjanson shot that idea down handily in an Off Topic thread.

Lukas Kristjanson wrote...

We leave things open to interpretation all the time. It deepens characters if they have aspects that are not wholly defined by the immediate events, and lets the player construct personal motivations and fill out the minutia of relationships that simply can’t be represented in a game that is not expressly about that. But if you’re asking if we
intended to leave room for discussing a romance between the player and his half-sister… short answer, no. Long answer, .

Lukas Kristjanson wrote...

On Imoen: The core answerable wasn’t “Is this possible for players to imagine?” It was “Did you intend this specific meaning?” I didn’t write that exchange in ToB, but I wrote Imoen as a sister by nurture in BG1, and a sister by (admittedly weird) nature in BG2. Writing that allows interpretation is good for roleplaying, I'm all for it, but if you want to know the role that I intentionally supported, there it is.

Link Link (Incase anyone wants to see the source thread.)

So yeah... romancing Imoen is squicktastic. 

Modifié par Seagloom, 20 septembre 2011 - 09:47 .

[HoonDing]

IIRC Viconia mentions to <charname> she's been a priestess of Lolth for two centuries, but I could be wrong.

What's the average Elven lifespan, anyway?

[Seagloom]

700 years.

[Humanoid_Taifun]

Seagloom wrote...
So yeah... romancing Imoen is squicktastic. 

Did you just say squidtastic?
Because I think you said squidtastic.

[Pipboy3billion]

but in medieval time they were pretty much considered already a woman
near that age. Also the pc(depending on your picture or your bio it
might be more) is maybe 20-21(+1 year for BG1) years old which doesnt
give such a huge age disparity.

Fifteen is the age of majority in several territories along the Sword Coast.

I don't think either is really an excuse. The devs and players of said games/mod come from a world where such practices are considered child molestation. And a 21 year old pursuing a 15 year old is totally foul.

I believe that Juliette was all of 13 in the story that Shakespear[e] based his play on.

And Romeo was only 16 or 17.

But on the old forums this topic was argued to exhaustion, with the pro
"incest"party maintaining that all he got from Bhaal was part of his
soul, not any DNA, so he and Imoen are not genetically related in any
way. Poo-Bah.

At the very least it's like shagging your step-sister. No thanks.

What I've always found a little creepy is that Viconia (drow), Aerie
(elf) and Jaheira (half-elf) are probably around 40 or 50. If male, our
poor PC is surrounded by hungary cougars! Can't really blame him for
preferring someone much closer to his own age, like Saerrilith or Nalia
or ....

Frankly, this was one thing that was not well thought out, IMO. First of all, the premise of the plot doesn't really work for any non-human/non-half-elven races. Second, with romances, none of them are really all that age-appropriate except, ironically, Anomen with a human or half-elven female. Nalia would be fine, but I find her character to be so annoying...almost as bad as Aerie. I just think they kinda bungled on the age situation.

Modifié par Pipboy3billion, 21 septembre 2011 - 03:05 .

[Humanoid_Taifun]

Pipboy3billion wrote...
I don't think either is really an excuse. The devs and players of said games/mod come from a world where such practices are considered child molestation.

And where you can't go around murdering thousands of people. Your point being? Are you role playing or are you not?

At the very least it's like shagging your step-sister. No thanks.

That's common practise in many cultures. I've heard it was a Japanese trend for some time to actually adopt girls into their households so that their son would have somebody to marry later.

Modifié par Humanoid_Taifun, 21 septembre 2011 - 07:45 .

[Flamedance]

Jaheira is an odd case anyway. Both her and Khalid are long time members of the Harpers when you meet them and a lot older than the pc. yet they start out as level 1 characters. That's a bit unrealistic. Not that it bothers me greatly, but still.

The only romance that's not creepy is the Anomen romance. Of course, Anomen himself is rather creepy, but that's something else again:P Though he turns into a rather decent human being as long as he doesn't fail his test. Plus, if i had a father like him, i'd probably have a few hangups myself.

[HoonDing]

To be fair, though, there has never been a "normal" person to be romanced in any BioWare game. And compared to the romancable characters in BioWare games after BG2, BG2's characters are fairly normal.

[morbidest2]

Humanoid_Taifun wrote...

Pipboy3billion wrote...
I don't think either is really an excuse. The devs and players of said games/mod come from a world where such practices are considered child molestation.

And where you can't go around murdering thousands of people. Your point being? Are you role playing or are you not?

At the very least it's like shagging your step-sister. No thanks.

That's common practise in many cultures. I've heard it was a Japanese trend for some time to actually adopt girls into their households so that their son would have somebody to marry later.

It was common practise among medieval european royalty, or high nobility, to marry their kids off at very tender ages - think 10 or less -  for peace treaty purposes, and have the child bride be brought up in her father-in-laws court to insure that, for instance, a French or Spanish princess would think of herself as a good Englishwoman, rather than as an agent for her father. Henry VIII complained that it hadn't worked for Katherine of Aragon!
 I suspect your Japanese example is the same thing.
Nalia's  betrothal to Isaea Toenail from the neighboring duchy, is another example, only she would keep picking the castle locks and sneak off to Athkatla.  

[Pipboy3billion]

And where you can't go around murdering thousands of people. Your point being? Are you role playing or are you not?

And every single one of them was killed in self-defense.

There's RP and then there's personal decency as a human being. If you put me in a RL situation where it's kill or be killed, I'm fighting for my life and there's nothing wrong with that. The only saving grace of a grown adult gamer RPing a romance with a 15-year old girl is that it's an outlet (hopefully) keeping that same adult from pursuing an actual 15-year old girl.

Jaheira is an odd case anyway. Both her and Khalid are long time members of the Harpers when you meet them and a lot older than the pc. yet they start out as level 1 characters. That's a bit unrealistic. Not that it bothers me greatly, but still

Yeah, I've noticed that, too. Sure, Jah gets a 2000 xp edge, but the characters definitely don't match the history.

[Humanoid_Taifun]

Pipboy3billion wrote...
And every single one of them was killed in self-defense.

Of course. After a trilogy run you can easily have a death tally of 3K, and it's all "self defense". Just because it's impossible in-game, you know that a person trying to avoid killing people could just flee to some other country, where Sarevok would never send his assassins (he'd probably still get tied up in the Bhaal-spawn war, but he wouldn't know that before). While you are playing the game to advance the plot, you are taking active measures for combat and there is no way to deny that.
Also, there have been minimal killing (and minimal XP) runs, where people managed to get through the games leaving pretty much everybody alive. So you actually have a certain degree of choice in the matter.

But of course, on young girl's chastity is more important that a few thousand guys' lives.

There's RP and then there's personal decency as a human being.

I'm not going to argue against your base values. But I ask you to consider that perhaps the situation can be perceived (by others) as not quite so dramatic. She is, by her own standards and those of her culture, a fully grown woman (1 year below legal age of marriage of states such as Japan) and she is consenting.

If you put me in a RL situation where it's kill or be killed, I'm fighting for my life and there's nothing wrong with that.

And you are going to go on a rampage through the entire country, slaying people left and right, searching for the one bastard who put the bounty on you. Good to know.

[Pipboy3billion]

But of course, on young girl's chastity is more important that a few thousand guys' lives.

And you are going to go on a rampage through the entire country, slaying people left and right, searching for the one bastard who put the bounty on you. Good to know.

...you actually have a certain degree of choice in the matter.

Now who's being dramatic?

I'm not killing people wontonly. In the course of trying to figure out what's going on, the party is getting attacked by bounty hunters, spiders, undead, gnolls, trolls, and kobolds, etc., all of whom also had the option of staying home. However, they chose to come out and try to kill a small group of people who are just looking for answers. Live by the sword, die by the sword.

But, you're right, there is a choice. To be honest, I prefer games where you don't murder people (i.e. Portal) than those where you do. The only reason some RPGs get through the gate, so to speak, is because the story is of primary importance and most of what you kill are evil, often mindless, inhuman creatures who pretty much only exist to kill you anyway.

Also, this isn't a gender thing. If it was an under-aged boy, it would be just as bad. Furthermore, it's not even about chastity. I'm not going to get into what I was doing at 15, but I certainly wasn't doing it with a 25 year old.

These aren't just folkways, it's taboo (at least it is in the US). Might as well be making a sheep-shagging mod and rationalize it by saying that it's legal in a village outside of Waterdeep.

Modifié par Pipboy3billion, 21 septembre 2011 - 04:00 .

[Humanoid_Taifun]

Pipboy3billion wrote...
I'm not killing people wontonly. In the course of trying to figure out what's going on, the party is getting attacked by bounty hunters, spiders, undead, gnolls, trolls, and kobolds, etc.,

Plus any number of people who have no idea who is supposed to be the real bad guy and who are only trying to protect their lives or the law.

all of whom also had the option of staying home.

Some of them are home when you come for their heads, if I remember correctly.

However, they chose to come out and try to kill a small group of people
who are just looking for answers. Live by the sword, die by the sword.

Your line of arguing reminds me of a certain comic. "They knew the risks when they took the job."

evil, often mindless, inhuman creatures who pretty much only exist to kill you anyway.

This kind of opponent I actually have the largest problem with, since it implies that there could be such hollow creature that truly and only deserves death. That is sick in my opinion.

I certainly wasn't doing it with a 25 year old.

The protagonist is 5, not 10 years older than the girl though. Roleplaying.

These aren't just folkways, it's taboo (at least it is in the US).

Oh, so you live in the US. That makes 1 of the 2 of us.

Might as well be making a sheep-shagging mod and rationalize it by saying that it's legal in a village outside of Waterdeep.

If the mod played in that village, sure.

[Pipboy3billion]

Your line of arguing reminds me of a certain comic. [url=http://v.cdn.nuklearpower.com/comics/8-bit-theater/040101.png]"They knew the risks when they took the job."

LMAO. That was hilarious. I haven't seen 8-bit theater in forever.

Plus any number of people who have no idea who is supposed to be the real bad guy and who are only trying to protect their lives or the law

Some of them are home when you come for their heads, if I remember correctly

I don't remember BG2 too well, but so far in BG1, I haven't invaded anyone's home looking for their heads. Even in the wilderness areas, I've taken the most peaceful route possible, even if it means losing out on a battle for some decent xp.

This kind of opponent I actually have the largest problem with, since it implies that there could be such hollow creature that truly and only deserves death. That is sick in my opinion.

Honestly, I think we can go on and on about violence in video games. For the most part I would agree with you (I assume your position is more on the pacifist/respect for life side of things). Actually, this debate is one of the reasons I don't really play video games much anymore. You may recall that one of my first threads discussed how this was going to be my last run through the BG series and the end of my interest in the hobby.

The protagonist is 5, not 10 years older than the girl though. Roleplaying.

One is a teenager, the other is an adult. You could say that in this fictional world kids become adults at the age of 7, and it wouldn't make it right. It would just mean that the dev of such a world has some serious issues.

Also, not to nit, but he's 6 years older.

Oh, so you live in the US. That makes 1 of the 2 of us.

Well, I didn't want to assume, being the internet and all.

If the mod played in that village, sure.

And it would be fine for the fictional characters, but kinda messed up for the real life players that are actually engaging in the narrative.

[Humanoid_Taifun]

Pipboy3billion wrote...
I don't remember BG2 too well, but so far in BG1, I haven't invaded anyone's home looking for their heads.

Well, maybe he's not "home", but for example Tranzig is in his hotel - not looking for you. Others sit peacefully in the Iron Throne mines. Sure, their means are not questionable, they are simply wrong. But you are entering the house to kill them. They are certainly not coming for you.
And that's my point.

Even in the wilderness areas, I've taken the most peaceful route possible, even if it means losing out on a battle for some decent xp.

But you phrase it in a way that makes it clear you understand you are not going about this the normal way.

One is a teenager, the other is an adult. You could say that in this fictional world kids become adults at the age of 7, and it wouldn't make it right.

Regardless, 15 years is not a "fictional" adult age. And it needn't be completely "right" either, so long as people remember the MST3K mantra: "It's just a show, I should really just relax."

I didn't want to start this discussion of right and wrong and
instead wanted to reach an "it depends on whom you are asking" because
Right and Wrong on such a subject is the best fuel for a flamewar.

Also, not to nit, but he's 6 years older.

To my knowledge, the mod still gives the MC's age as 20. Maybe the developers thought you'd be able to finish BG1 and move onto BG2 in less than 12 months.

And it would be fine for the fictional characters, but kinda messed up for the real life players that are actually engaging in the narrative.

It would be a weird experience, certainly, but if it's done well like with that dialogue in Night On Earth...

[HoonDing]

The thing about the Saerileth mod is that it doesn't even make remotely sense for a 15-year old to be a Paladin of Tyr.

[morbidest2]

virumor wrote...

The thing about the Saerileth mod is that it doesn't even make remotely sense for a 15-year old to be a Paladin of Tyr.

Family influence? Remember how Nalia complains about the Radiant Heart paladins being  a very wealthy organization. However, Saerileth couldn't be a full fledged member of that band until she turns 40, which supports your argument. Maybe she had a very early growth spurt  
Joan of Arc wasn't all that much older when she became the figurehead for the French army and she would charge into battle.

Modifié par morbidest2, 21 septembre 2011 - 08:54 .

[Seagloom]

Humanoid_Taifun wrote...

Seagloom wrote...
So yeah... romancing Imoen is squicktastic. 

Did you just say squidtastic?
Because I think you said squidtastic.

No. I think.

Looks like this conversation has gone in a whole other direction during my absence. I agree with Humanoid_Taifun. While I have no interest in trying that mod, it's for a whole host of reasons. I don't a 15 year old being in a romantic relationship is automatic verisimilitude smasher when it is applicable to the setting. Fact is, that is the age of majority, or if you prefer, adulthood in much of the Sword Coast and Savage North. It's not a carbon copy of our society in several extreme ways, and I'm not referring to the  fantastic elements of elves and dragons when I state that. As long as it is obvious the creator of a setting, or the author of a story within in it is not including an underage romance for skeevy purposes, I will overlook it.

Besides, why draw the line at an adult, as defined by *our* cultural norms, dating a minor? I could point at the rampant prostitution and say Ed Greenwood is a slimeball for peppering his world with brothels. Or I could go one better and say BioWare's writers are perverts for including brothels in both their games, or highlighting sexual slavery in BG2.

That's also to say nothing of the fact you can burn children alive and melt the flesh off their mothers' bones with horrid wilting. Again, I'm not defending this mod. Heavens knows I want nowhere near it. But if we are going to be righteously offended over one objectionable piece of content because it does not meet our modern cultural standards, I think we should logically be dismayed at *all* of it.

Modifié par Seagloom, 21 septembre 2011 - 11:58 .

[morbidest2]

We agree that any PC/Imoen romance is repulsive/squiddy/ukky  
But if you are going to bring up "modern cultural standards", remember that in the last hundred years
*nuclear weapons melted bones and children in numbers that Sarevok couldn't even dream of
*you can easily find BDSM on the internet that even the Romans didn't dream of
*a country that considered itself highly cultured gassed millions of Jews and starved to death an equal, or greater, # of Russian POWs
And so on and so forth. About the only thing modern western society draws the line at is child abuse and, supposedly, drug addiction. Yet out West we still have wacko polygamous cults marrying off 15 year old girls and poppy farming is still the backbone of Afghanistan's economy. One could argue that the things you objected to in BG and its mods are not a nostalgic reflection of the good old Viking days ("No, kid. First rob, rape and pillage, THEN burn"), but rather that the developers subconsciously couldn't fully escape from our modern society.

About the highest rating I would give to any human society in the last 50,000 years is chaotic neutral.

Modifié par morbidest2, 22 septembre 2011 - 02:00 .