210 réponses à ce sujet

[Eyeshield21]

Masako52 wrote...

Yeah.... okay.

There are two issues here: One is that video game females tend to be sexualized in costume and body. With the stereotype that gamers are all males, from a feminist's perspective, it's troublesome to have women characters disproportionately sexualized.

The other issue is what I'm seeing from the OP and some commenters - that a woman isn't allowed to show her stuff unless she's a "sl*t", and having cleavage is a bad thing. From a feminist's perspective, this is ALSO an extremely unfair accusation. Women can dress however they want to, and that gives you absolutely no right to judge their own sexuality. Furthermore, having cleavage and showing it a little doesn't have to mean "I love sex", sometimes a girl just wants to wear something that she feels comfortable or even pretty in.

I'm a woman gamer, and think DA2 does a good job in portraying women. Yes, there are some "sexualized" women, like Isabela, but being sexual is NOT a bad thing. It's part of her character. There are real women who are sexual, etc. I think if the costume makes sense for the character, that's fine. In contrast we have Aveline who is not sexual and dresses like a warrior - shall we say a "gender neutral" costume. And it makes sense for her - if they had dressed Aveline in a tiny skirt and bikini top, like some video game companies might very well have done, it would have been out of character and blatantly fanservice.

I have to say, though. I'm a lesbian, and I appreciate a girl's good form and "assets", if you will - but there was nothing sexual about Bethany in my opinion. She was a pretty girl, and she have cleavage. But I always thought she dressed quite modestly. The overall effect wasn't "sexy", it was "nice looking" in a girl next door kind of way. As pointed out before, cleavage is pretty common in Renn-style outfits, and clearly in Kirkwall women don't feel the need to hide behind high necklines.

hmm, that's a good point.
Still, I thought people thought merril was the girl next door? Bethany is just your cute sister and kind person(unlike carver who gets pissed off over everything you do)

[Joy Divison]

The original post gives feminism a bad name.

Using the exaggerated Bethany pics to "prove" your point is about as weak as it gets.

[Monica21]

Masako52 wrote...

Yeah.... okay.

There are two issues here: One is that video game females tend to be sexualized in costume and body. With the stereotype that gamers are all males, from a feminist's perspective, it's troublesome to have women characters disproportionately sexualized.

The other issue is what I'm seeing from the OP and some commenters - that a woman isn't allowed to show her stuff unless she's a "sl*t", and having cleavage is a bad thing. From a feminist's perspective, this is ALSO an extremely unfair accusation. Women can dress however they want to, and that gives you absolutely no right to judge their own sexuality. Furthermore, having cleavage and showing it a little doesn't have to mean "I love sex", sometimes a girl just wants to wear something that she feels comfortable or even pretty in.

I'm a woman gamer, and think DA2 does a good job in portraying women. Yes, there are some "sexualized" women, like Isabela, but being sexual is NOT a bad thing. It's part of her character. There are real women who are sexual, etc. I think if the costume makes sense for the character, that's fine. In contrast we have Aveline who is not sexual and dresses like a warrior - shall we say a "gender neutral" costume. And it makes sense for her - if they had dressed Aveline in a tiny skirt and bikini top, like some video game companies might very well have done, it would have been out of character and blatantly fanservice.

I have to say, though. I'm a lesbian, and I appreciate a girl's good form and "assets", if you will - but there was nothing sexual about Bethany in my opinion. She was a pretty girl, and she have cleavage. But I always thought she dressed quite modestly. The overall effect wasn't "sexy", it was "nice looking" in a girl next door kind of way. As pointed out before, cleavage is pretty common in Renn-style outfits, and clearly in Kirkwall women don't feel the need to hide behind high necklines.

I love this post so much I'm not ashamed to say I wish I'd written it.

[Addai]

Masako52 wrote...

Also, adding, I find it a little disturbing that so many of you think that Bethany showing off some cleavage is "gross" because she's related to Hawke. So... just because she's obviously not a love interest, she has to dress like a nun? She's not allowed to dress fashionably or in a way that's the least bit coy because she's supposed to be aware that her brother/sister is the main character in the story?

No.  Because it's stupid.  She's in a war zone for crying out loud.  And later on, working as a mercenary.  That outfit makes no sense.  I mean, leave aside the bare neck- I'm wondering how long someone had to forge those mail rings to get a perfectly form fitting bodice.

Just wanna say, I read an entirely unrelated review of DA2 who pointed out that rogue Hawke had on practical, useful armor whereas Bethany was there for obvious cleavage.

Modifié par Addai67, 21 septembre 2011 - 03:25 .

[whykikyouwhy]

Addai67 wrote...

Masako52 wrote...

Also, adding, I find it a little disturbing that so many of you think that Bethany showing off some cleavage is "gross" because she's related to Hawke. So... just because she's obviously not a love interest, she has to dress like a nun? She's not allowed to dress fashionably or in a way that's the least bit coy because she's supposed to be aware that her brother/sister is the main character in the story?

No.  Because it's stupid.  She's in a war zone for crying out loud.  And later on, working as a mercenary.  That outfit makes no sense.  I mean, leave aside the bare neck- I'm wondering how long someone had to forge those mail rings to get a perfectly form fitting bodice.

Just wanna say, I read an entirely unrelated review of DA2 who pointed out that rogue Hawke had on practical, useful armor whereas Bethany was there for obvious cleavage.

Bethany's Prologue (and Act 1) outfit is simply her outfit, like Varric with his duster (which isn't very armor-heavy either, nor necessarily fit for any war zone). She's not dressed for a war zone because when we first see her, she's fleeing Lothering - running for her life, scrambling to escape, etc. (I could swear I posted that before...hmm....) We don't see Bethany during her actual mercenary stint, so for all we know, she had a different attire, but is back in her standard outfit in Act 1 because she likes it.

I don't know that Carver's bicep-flexing sleeveless tunic is "fit for a warzone" - but, same applies to him. When we first see him, he's fleeing Lothering. On the lam, as it were. And in Act 1, he's trying to impress Isabela or Merrill back to his standard outfit.

As for obvious cleavage, it really isn't that obvious. Not when you're past Varric's version of the Prologue.

[Addai]

The review was showing a screenshot in the normal game, not the prologue. So obviously some people disagree about what's "obvious" or not.

Some people were bothered by Jack or Miranda's outfits, some people weren't. Same deal here. If Bioware didn't insist on static outfits, it wouldn't be an issue at all.

[Monica21]

whykikyouwhy wrote...
As for obvious cleavage, it really isn't that obvious. Not when you're past Varric's version of the Prologue.

I still think Mama Hawke had more obvious cleavage than Bethany. 

[whykikyouwhy]

Addai67 wrote...

The review was showing a screenshot in the normal game, not the prologue. So obviously some people disagree about what's "obvious" or not.

Some people were bothered by Jack or Miranda's outfits, some people weren't. Same deal here. If Bioware didn't insist on static outfits, it wouldn't be an issue at all.

Ah...so that's the problem? This is a companion armor thread?!

I've clearly been mistaken...

Modifié par whykikyouwhy, 21 septembre 2011 - 03:44 .

[Monica21]

Addai67 wrote...

The review was showing a screenshot in the normal game, not the prologue. So obviously some people disagree about what's "obvious" or not.

Some people were bothered by Jack or Miranda's outfits, some people weren't. Same deal here. If Bioware didn't insist on static outfits, it wouldn't be an issue at all.

So you found a review that agrees with you. Great. There are a lot of people in this thread who agree with you. Great. It's still an opinion, and it's still just her outfit, and it's still not "half her breast."

Modifié par Monica21, 21 septembre 2011 - 03:41 .

[happy_daiz]

I think with Bethany's huge ta-tas, she probably has a hard time finding clothes that fit. The poor girl will probably have back troubles later in life if she makes it out of the Deep Roads. We should all feel bad for her.

OK, I should stop sleepy-typing, shouldn't I?

[Joy Divison]

Addai67 wrote...

Masako52 wrote...

Also, adding, I find it a little disturbing that so many of you think that Bethany showing off some cleavage is "gross" because she's related to Hawke. So... just because she's obviously not a love interest, she has to dress like a nun? She's not allowed to dress fashionably or in a way that's the least bit coy because she's supposed to be aware that her brother/sister is the main character in the story?

No.  Because it's stupid.  She's in a war zone for crying out loud.  And later on, working as a mercenary.  That outfit makes no sense.  I mean, leave aside the bare neck- I'm wondering how long someone had to forge those mail rings to get a perfectly form fitting bodice.

Just wanna say, I read an entirely unrelated review of DA2 who pointed out that rogue Hawke had on practical, useful armor whereas Bethany was there for obvious cleavage.

I'm not sure why you are posting.

The OP, and the thread presuamably, is about Bethany's over-sexualized nature.

You keep telling us your problem is not the sexuality implicit nature of her outfit, instead it is its impracticality.  Shouldn't that belong in a different thread so as not to confuse the issue?  Or is the implication others are making, that you also feel Bethany is over-sexualized, is correct?

Modifié par Joy Divison, 21 septembre 2011 - 04:05 .

[Addai]

whykikyouwhy wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

The review was showing a screenshot in the normal game, not the prologue. So obviously some people disagree about what's "obvious" or not.

Some people were bothered by Jack or Miranda's outfits, some people weren't. Same deal here. If Bioware didn't insist on static outfits, it wouldn't be an issue at all.

Ah...so that's the problem? This is a companion armor thread?!

I've clearly been mistaken...

Sure.  If you could change the outfits, no one would be able to complain because they could dress companions to suit their own taste.  Instead of having the itch all the time, every time you look at a stupidly dressed person.  You can feel to run your mages around in an evening dress, I can put armor on them- in an ideal, non-cinematic world.  I mean, something like actual armor, not the "off the shoulder" version.

@Monica:  Obvious.  I wasn't stating anything other than my opinion.

@Joy:  It's tangentially related.  The ridiculousness of a chainmail corset is in part due to the fact that the outfit is not meant to look like something a person could or would actually wear, i.e. for sex appeal.

Modifié par Addai67, 21 septembre 2011 - 05:12 .

[Adanu]

Joy Divison wrote...

The original post gives feminism a bad name.

Using the exaggerated Bethany pics to "prove" your point is about as weak as it gets.

Your feminism can go drive off a cliff.

[Spell Singer]

wow...this is still going on? Bethany's outfit is not overtly sexual at all in my view, she is good looking but so is her entire family. I find Leandra far more overtly sexual in terms of outfit. Bethany's outfit isn't practical, but it is a lot better then what most games put mages in, including DA:O, which gives you the option between miniskirt and bearclaws with cleavage or the full coverage but aweful colors and zero protection of the circle robes.

But Bethany's outfit while the cleavage is intended to invoke sex apeal isn't "overtly sexy"...there isn't much point to showing her cleavage beyond showing her cleavage but it uses the less is more approach: a bit of skin is a lot more tantalizing when you have everything else covered (speaking personally and from a male perspective but I'm doubtful I'm in a minority here). It ensures you notice her but I've always figured women dress like that to get noticed...which is no different then when a man does the equivelant, you do it to be noticed...so why should Bethany be different? Also Varric is relating the story so I find it hardly surprising what people are wearing...he isn't exactly subtle.

Merc light strapping for all it is fully functional scale armour (probably leather plates) is a lot more "sexy." Even Isabella's shift doesn't reveal that much cleavage compared to outfits you can see any day of the summer in a typical city in Europe and she uses sex as a weapon. Heck it isn't that bad compared to daisy duke, charlies angles or any number of TV shows that went for sex appeal over plot and acting.

I can't argue with the fact that a lot of the outfits look brain dead if you ever considered using them in combat but overall there is worse out there (DA:O's female dalish armour for example, ME 2 any female companion outside of Tali, anything out of japan though the games are so bad even panty shots can't keep me interested, aribeth's plate armour, the valsharess's whatever, Matriarch Benezia in ME, assari commando armour, and the list goes on). Compartively you have to give DA 2 a lot of credit for at least trying.

[jaybee93]

What I want to know is, why is Varric so overtly sexual? I was kind of shocked about it, knowing how female gamers can be. If he was wearing a regular shirt he'd just be handsome with a sexy voice, but with his shirt open like that of course we're going to respond to his chest hair. Yow.

I mean, why do that for a character that you explicitly cannot bang? Damn you, Bioware.

(Oops, Sabariel et al beat me to it. Oh well.)

Modifié par jaybee93, 21 septembre 2011 - 12:15 .

[teenparty]

I tried to take Bethany to the Blooming Rose as Isabela suggests, but the option isn't available.

[tmp7704]

Fata Morgana wrote...

I mean, why do that for a character that you explicitly cannot bang?

Important characters in the story simply tend to be created attractive looking, no matter whether they can be "banged" or not. It's a perk of having your name in the story credits.

Have the creators of the game made any comments about this topic?

Yes, they tend to lock threads with similar context and voice their displeasure at such take.

[Joy Divison]

Addai67 wrote...

@Joy:  It's tangentially related.  The ridiculousness of a chainmail corset is in part due to the fact that the outfit is not meant to look like something a person could or would actually wear, i.e. for sex appeal.

I see. 

Nobody would ever go into battle without being fully encased in steel.


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Modifié par Joy Divison, 21 septembre 2011 - 02:15 .

[Monica21]

Joy Divison wrote...
I see. 

Nobody would ever go into battle without being fully encased in steel.

I get your point, but wow. It's way too early for me to have seen that.

[happy_daiz]

Maybe the Hawkes were poor, and Bethany had to borrow the dress from her mom.  

[Addai]

Joy Divison wrote...
I see. 

Nobody would ever go into battle without being fully encased in steel.

Now who's being ridiculous?

Somewhere, rogue Hawke manages to scrape up some leather armor, and warrior Hawke even got over to the forge before heading to Ostagar.  Bethany must have put in an order for some chainmail and the armorer got halfway up and called it good.

While we're on the subject, chainmail is heavy.  Now someone will tell me that the force of gravity doesn't work the same in Thedas, and that the same mystical force that is keeping Bethany's bodice in place (form fitted to what must be a tiny waist) simultaneously causes the ladies to lift and separate.  Funny how that works.

Modifié par Addai67, 21 septembre 2011 - 03:22 .

[whykikyouwhy]

Well, Hawke, regardless of class, was a soldier at Ostagar and thus probably had access to sets of armor.

I don't think that Bethany's outfit is half-finished. I'm sure she wanted it to look like that. For all we know, she was trying for an edgy look (again, I'll point out that she's 18 and thus probably prone to experimenting with self expression through fashion). Are we certain that it's actual 'chainmail?'

Regarding her waist and chest, because her anatomy must be dissected, she seems quite proportional. I know plenty of women with narrow waists and ample bosoms.

For the record, I thought that Joy Divison provided a very valid example.

[alex90c]

tbh, I'm a bit more irked about why it was Leandra who ended up with a massive set.

I mean ... why?

[Zanallen]

I figure she just grabbed what was available while fleeing in an attempt to have some small protection. Not that chainmail would do much for her anyway. Without proper padding, any blow from a darkspawn is like to shatter her bones.

Modifié par Zanallen, 21 septembre 2011 - 03:36 .

[hoorayforicecream]

whykikyouwhy wrote...

Regarding her waist and chest, because her anatomy must be dissected, she seems quite proportional. I know plenty of women with narrow waists and ample bosoms.

The women of Thedas seem to be gifted in the chest region as a whole. Bethany, the real Bethany, is actually small in comparison. Maybe that's why she wants to try to show them off; perhaps she's compensating because she's insecure about the size of her bosoms.