190 réponses à ce sujet

[KBomb]

Xeranx wrote...

Maybe so, but I can't give him a pass on what he did.  The way he acts sounds like he's heard the report more than once already.  In fact, the caption says: "days after the annihilation of a Batarian system by Commander Shepard".  I'd wager that report came up quickly.  So Vega had to have heard the report the first time (considering his words in the comic) and taken notice of 300,000 Batarian dead.  So acting like he did shows a complete disregard for what happened to a whole system and he's playing cards with at least four Batarians. 

Again, if the situation had been reversed he'd be looking for blood...probably before sitting down to a card game.  Those Batarians actually made a distinction between the one responsible and every other human.  I don't believe they'd be playing cards with him otherwise.

Really? You think he only heard a report like that once? Really? When in ME2 there were news terminals around every corner? Even in war-destroyed Turchunka there are news terminals. And this was seen as a terrorist attack, so I guarantee it was on every terminal and talked about constantly, even if it only happened a few days ago. As famous as Shepard was, you don’t think this would have been the talk of the entire galaxy?
 
He wasn’t saying the news report was bull****, or that the fact 300,000 batarians were dead bull****, but that calling Shepard a terrorist was bull****. I agree. They attacked him first. No matter what was said, they attacked first.

Modifié par KBomb, 18 septembre 2011 - 05:27 .

[Zanallen]

Xeranx wrote...

He started the situation with his actions.  The reasons behind them don't matter.  One Batarian is dead (that he was playing cards with minutes before) and others injured due to his actions.  

If the actions you exhibit start a confrontation that leads to the death of one of the people involved you're culpable in the death...especially if it was you that killed the deceased.  It's an easy case of saying you started it for the outcome that resulted.

Except his actions were clearly in self defense. The batarians are the ones that drew knives and wanted to throw down. The batarians are the ones who tried to kill him. Could he have shown more tact? Sure. But that doesn't make the batarians innocent in what happened.

[Xeranx]

KBomb wrote...

Xeranx wrote...

Maybe so, but I can't give him a pass on what he did.  The way he acts sounds like he's heard the report more than once already.  In fact, the caption says: "days after the annihilation of a Batarian system by Commander Shepard".  I'd wager that report came up quickly.  So Vega had to have heard the report the first time (considering his words in the comic) and taken notice of 300,000 Batarian dead.  So acting like he did shows a complete disregard for what happened to a whole system and he's playing cards with at least four Batarians. 

Again, if the situation had been reversed he'd be looking for blood...probably before sitting down to a card game.  Those Batarians actually made a distinction between the one responsible and every other human.  I don't believe they'd be playing cards with him otherwise.

Really? You think he only heard a report like that once? Really? When in ME2 there were news terminals around every corner? Even in war-destroyed Turchunka there are news terminals. And this was seen as a terrorist attack, so I guarantee it was on every terminal and talked about constantly, even if it only happened a few days ago. As famous as Shepard was, you don’t think this would have been the talk of the entire galaxy?
 
He wasn’t saying the news report was bull****, or that the fact 300,000 batarians was bull****, but that calling Shepard a terrorist was bull****. I agree. They attacked him first. No matter what was said, they attacked first.

Read my post again.  You missed something critical.

Zanallen wrote...

Xeranx wrote...

He started the situation with his actions.  The reasons behind them don't matter.  One Batarian is dead (that he was playing cards with minutes before) and others injured due to his actions.  

If the actions you exhibit start a confrontation that leads to the death of one of the people involved you're culpable in the death...especially if it was you that killed the deceased.  It's an easy case of saying you started it for the outcome that resulted.

Except his actions were clearly in self defense. The batarians are the ones that drew knives and wanted to throw down. The batarians are the ones who tried to kill him. Could he have shown more tact? Sure. But that doesn't make the batarians innocent in what happened.

His actions:

1. He got up from a game when it was his turn to make a bet.

2. He walked over to a television set that had a report going about 300,000 Batarians being lost due to destruction of a mass relay by Commander Shepard.

3. He rips the television set off the wall.

4. When confronted by his action of ripping the t.v. set down he offers his winnings as payment and then commits another action...

5. ...of speaking and says: "As long as I don't have to listen to that bullsh!t".

That's when the Batarians he was playing cards with confront him.  

I never said that the Batarians were innocent of any wrong doing, but no one in their right mind should give any idea that they condone what happened to them.  Even if Vega is showing support for Shepard it is being reported that Shepard is the one responsible for the deaths of 300,000 Batarians.  There's no way to sugarcoat it.  If someone wiped out a large number of your people and someone said the words he did you're not going to take that lightly regardless of how he meant them.  He had time to apologize, but didn't.  Instead he said let's get back to our game.  No remorse is shown.

His actions led to the confrontation which led to the death of another Batarian at his hands.

[KBomb]

Xeranx wrote...
*snip*
Read my post again.  You missed something critical.

Ah yes, apologies. Even so, my statement remains as is. He was probably tired of hearing the same spiel. I would have been. The batarians were the first to react with violence. Had that situation happened to me, I would have kicked their asses too. (Not really, I am very short. I would have ran.) And as I asked before, how many of these people complaining about his hot-head punched the reporter? Some people want to hate him and will find any reason to do so.



And he killed that batarian with the batarian’s own knife. The one he pulled out to stab and kill Vega. Yeah, don’t see the problem with that dead batarian. Live by the sword...and such.

Modifié par KBomb, 18 septembre 2011 - 05:52 .

[Zanallen]

Xeranx wrote...

His actions:

1. He got up from a game when it was his turn to make a bet.

2. He walked over to a television set that had a report going about 300,000 Batarians being lost due to destruction of a mass relay by Commander Shepard.

3. He rips the television set off the wall.

4. When confronted by his action of ripping the t.v. set down he offers his winnings as payment and then commits another action...

5. ...of speaking and says: "As long as I don't have to listen to that bullsh!t".

That's when the Batarians he was playing cards with confront him.  

I never said that the Batarians were innocent of any wrong doing, but no one in their right mind should give any idea that they condone what happened to them.  Even if Vega is showing support for Shepard it is being reported that Shepard is the one responsible for the deaths of 300,000 Batarians.  There's no way to sugarcoat it.  If someone wiped out a large number of your people and someone said the words he did you're not going to take that lightly regardless of how he meant them.  He had time to apologize, but didn't.  Instead he said let's get back to our game.  No remorse is shown.

His actions led to the confrontation which led to the death of another Batarian at his hands.

Let's examine the Batarians' actions.

1. They confront Vega, asking if he is a Shepard lover and implying that the Batarians deserve payback. Not justice. Payback.

2. Vega responds that they should just get back to their game. One tells him to go to hell and charges.

3. Second Batarian pulls a knife and tried to kill Vega.

4. Fouth Batarian insults Vega. Vega responds in kind. Batarians are currently six to Vega's one. Two, at least, have guns drawn.

5. Batarian threatens Vega.

6. Fight continues. Another knife is drawn. Anderson stops the fight.

Neither side is showing much restraint. Both are in the wrong. Vega might have started it by being insensitive to the people surrounding him. Those people then proceeded to try and murder him. I think the Batarians are a little more at fault here.

[Xeranx]

I've never punched the reporter. She doesn't get to me enough to warrant it.

Regardless of how tired he was about the report being shown again and again, it didn't give him cause to do what he did which is pretty dramatic anyway. Excessively so. The question of whether Vega feels the Batarians don't deserve some sort of recompense was asked. Another asked if he was a Shepard lover (God the syntax of that line looks so familiar). No apology. To the Batarians it looks like he condones what happened to the Batarians that were killed. Muslims here in NY got beat down after 9/11 just because the radicals that caused our turmoil claimed to share the same faith.

[Phaedon]

Umm, I don't think that there is a question whether or not he had a right to defend himself.

He ripped off the TV, offered to repay extra to the bartender, asked the aggressive batarians to just return to the game even after they insulted him. At that point, they could walk away or just keep playing the game. But no, the idiots go attack a special forces soldier. He kicks their asses and walks away, or to be more exact, walks into an ambush, prepares to kick more ass, but he gets interrupted by Anderson.

The only aggressive act of his, is destroying the TV. I know people who will do that after a very stressful day. If you think that a PTSD patient reacting like this is a meathead, then umm, it's probably not him that is the meathead. Just saying.

EDIT:
It annoys to me extremelly when people act like war is a simple thing and that soldiers with discipline will endure.
The best of soldiers can crack under pressure. War isn't fun and games, get off your high horse and think a bit of why so many vets have psychological problems. 

Modifié par Phaedon, 18 septembre 2011 - 06:08 .

[Wulfram]

Zanallen wrote...

3. Second Batarian pulls a knife and tried to kill Vega.

In response to Vega smacking the first Batarian in the face with the TV.  I'm not convinced this counts as escalation.

[CroGamer002]

Phaedon wrote...

Umm, I don't think that there is a question whether or not he had a right to defend himself.

He ripped off the TV, offered to repay extra to the bartender, asked the aggressive batarians to just return to the game even after they insulted him. At that point, they could walk away or just keep playing the game. But no, the idiots go attack a special forces soldier. He kicks their asses and walks away, or to be more exact, walks into an ambush, prepares to kick more ass, but he gets interrupted by Anderson.

The only aggressive act of his, is destroying the TV. I know people who will do that after a very stressful day. If you think that a PTSD patient reacting like this is a meathead, then umm, it's probably not him that is the meathead. Just saying.

EDIT:
It annoys to me extremelly when people act like war is a simple thing and that soldiers with discipline will endure.
The best of soldiers can crack under pressure. War isn't fun and games, get off your high horse and think a bit of why so many vets have psychological problems. 

Agreed.

Modifié par Mesina2, 18 septembre 2011 - 06:17 .

[KBomb]

Xeranx wrote...

Regardless of how tired he was about the report being shown again and again, it didn't give him cause to do what he did which is pretty dramatic anyway. Excessively so. The question of whether Vega feels the Batarians don't deserve some sort of recompense was asked. Another asked if he was a Shepard lover (God the syntax of that line looks so familiar). No apology.

The batarian didn’t ask if there should be recompense. He asked shouldn’t there be payback. Two different things. The first can be taken as a sincere question. The latter is incendiary. One asked Vega was he a “Shepard lover”, also incendiary given the context. It was obvious by Vega’s actions that he did think Shepard was innocent, so the batarian asked that to illicit an angry response. Of course Vega didn’t apologize. The batarians at that point weren’t looking for an apology, they were looking for a fight and that much is obvious by them attacking him.
 

To the Batarians it looks like he condones what happened to the Batarians that were killed. Muslims here in NY got beat down after 9/11 just because the radicals that caused our turmoil claimed to share the same faith.

I don’t really want to bring real world politics into this discussion, it will only lead to a lockdown. I don’t think that really helps your argument anyway given that you’re defending the batarians, imo. In that scenerio humans would be the muslims and it would imply that they were seeing Vega as another human extremist and was waiting for an excuse to start something with him because he was part of the “human race”.

[Xeranx]

Zanallen wrote...

Let's examine the Batarians' actions.

Just with this opening it almost looks as though you're saying there was no cause.  There was.  Looking at it from the effect and proceeding from there shows bias.  Especially since Vega was playing cards with them before and from his conversation with the Krogan he had won enough to pay for damages.  The Batarians had no problem losing to Vega apparently.

1. They confront Vega, asking if he is a Shepard lover and implying that the Batarians deserve payback. Not justice. Payback.

If someone killed your family or just one relative and you wanted that person to get the death penalty are you asking for justice or payback?  

Still the confrontation would not occur if Vega make an action first (cause).

2. Vega responds that they should just get back to their game. One tells him to go to hell and charges.

Vega could have done a better job of diffusing the situation by apologizing.  Still he wouldn't be in that situation if not for his earlier actions.

3. Second Batarian pulls a knife and tried to kill Vega.

Effect of getting in a scuffle where people are going off of anger and not reason.  Still wouldn't have gotten here if not for Vega's actions.

4. Fouth Batarian insults Vega. Vega responds in kind. Batarians are currently six to Vega's one. Two, at least, have guns drawn.

And he attacks much like the Batarians did.  Not so different the two are.  Still wouldn't have happened if not for Vega's earlier actions.

5. Batarian threatens Vega.

Same Batarian as in #4.

6. Fight continues. Another knife is drawn. Anderson stops the fight.

Again.  Fight wouldn't have started if not for Vega's earlier actions of ripping a t.v. from a wall reporting on the deaths of 300k Batarians and his response when confronted by the Krogan behind the counter.

Whether another knife is drawn is irrelevant.  Anderson would never have had to stop a fight if there was no fight to begin with.

Neither side is showing much restraint. Both are in the wrong. Vega might have started it by being insensitive to the people surrounding him. Those people then proceeded to try and murder him. I think the Batarians are a little more at fault here.

Never said neither of them are in the wrong.  And no, the Batarians aren't "a little more at fault here".  They lost a large portion of their number and a whole system due to one individual.  They then witness someone get up and trash a t.v. reporting on the deaths of those Batarians.  That forces the question of why to crop up.  Vega says "As long as I don't have to listen to that bullsh!t."  That is enough to incite someone to anger.  It's the veritable call of "fire" where there isn't any.  Vega is asked to clarify his stance.  Instead of doing so he tries to get them to sit down and ignore what he's done and what he's said.  He never clarfied his words or his stance.  After that they can't be expected to think clearly.  

As I said before, Muslims in NY were beat down just because radicals claimed to share their faith after attacks were launched.  The Batarians did a hell of lot more in asking Vega to clarify his stance than some New Yorkers did in finding out if the Muslims they beat were radicals or not and Vega still failed to assuage them.  Had Vega apologized for his actions and decided to leave but couldn't because they pursued, then it's a different story.  That isn't what happened however.

[roflchoppaz]

Mesina2 wrote...

Phaedon wrote...

Umm, I don't think that there is a question whether or not he had a right to defend himself.

He ripped off the TV, offered to repay extra to the bartender, asked the aggressive batarians to just return to the game even after they insulted him. At that point, they could walk away or just keep playing the game. But no, the idiots go attack a special forces soldier. He kicks their asses and walks away, or to be more exact, walks into an ambush, prepares to kick more ass, but he gets interrupted by Anderson.

The only aggressive act of his, is destroying the TV. I know people who will do that after a very stressful day. If you think that a PTSD patient reacting like this is a meathead, then umm, it's probably not him that is the meathead. Just saying.

EDIT:
It annoys to me extremelly when people act like war is a simple thing and that soldiers with discipline will endure.
The best of soldiers can crack under pressure. War isn't fun and games, get off your high horse and think a bit of why so many vets have psychological problems. 

Agreed.

You always agree with him.

[Xeranx]

Actually I'm not defending the Batarians. I haven't said they were in the right, but you are defending Vega and trying to minimize the things he did as nothing special. No one knows what loss of that magnitude is and I hope no one ever does, but you don't take a reaction like Vega's lightly in light of the number lost and a system on top of that.

You don't want real world matters brought into this, but I'm stating that there's is a case where reason no longer exists. Why else would I state that the Batarians gave him a chance to clarify his stance, but he refused to take it?

[Phaedon]

I am a very aggreeable fellow, surely you agree, rofl ?

[CroGamer002]

^Well he was right there, wasn't he?

[Killer3000ad]

Any lawyers here? Would a self-defense claim work for someone like Vega in real life?

[Xeranx]

Phaedon wrote...

Umm, I don't think that there is a question whether or not he had a right to defend himself.

He ripped off the TV, offered to repay extra to the bartender, asked the aggressive batarians to just return to the game even after they insulted him. At that point, they could walk away or just keep playing the game. But no, the idiots go attack a special forces soldier. He kicks their asses and walks away, or to be more exact, walks into an ambush, prepares to kick more ass, but he gets interrupted by Anderson.

The only aggressive act of his, is destroying the TV. I know people who will do that after a very stressful day. If you think that a PTSD patient reacting like this is a meathead, then umm, it's probably not him that is the meathead. Just saying.

EDIT:
It annoys to me extremelly when people act like war is a simple thing and that soldiers with discipline will endure.
The best of soldiers can crack under pressure. War isn't fun and games, get off your high horse and think a bit of why so many vets have psychological problems. 

I don't know where the talk of PTSD started and I don't remember it being stated by a developer or in the comic.  

In any case your summary of accounts focuses on the fact that the Batarians attacked him and half-heartedly mention an act of vandalism on Vega's part.  No details as to why things happened which is exactly what would be needed to give a clear account of events.  I know that what happened doesn't make sense, but your account skews it so as to paint the Batarians as thugs without reason when that's not the case.

[Phaedon]

Xeranx wrote...

Phaedon wrote...

Umm, I don't think that there is a question whether or not he had a right to defend himself.

He ripped off the TV, offered to repay extra to the bartender, asked the aggressive batarians to just return to the game even after they insulted him. At that point, they could walk away or just keep playing the game. But no, the idiots go attack a special forces soldier. He kicks their asses and walks away, or to be more exact, walks into an ambush, prepares to kick more ass, but he gets interrupted by Anderson.

The only aggressive act of his, is destroying the TV. I know people who will do that after a very stressful day. If you think that a PTSD patient reacting like this is a meathead, then umm, it's probably not him that is the meathead. Just saying.

EDIT:
It annoys to me extremelly when people act like war is a simple thing and that soldiers with discipline will endure.
The best of soldiers can crack under pressure. War isn't fun and games, get off your high horse and think a bit of why so many vets have psychological problems. 

I don't know where the talk of PTSD started and I don't remember it being stated by a developer or in the comic.  

In any case your summary of accounts focuses on the fact that the Batarians attacked him and half-heartedly mention an act of vandalism on Vega's part.  No details as to why things happened which is exactly what would be needed to give a clear account of events.  I know that what happened doesn't make sense, but your account skews it so as to paint the Batarians as thugs without reason when that's not the case.

It maaaaay have something to do with Anderson dragging Vega's ass out of Omega because he couldn't get over Fehl. Or Vega admitting that he didn't want to get over it.

[Phaedon]

Killer3000ad wrote...

Any lawyers here? Would a self-defense claim work for someone like Vega in real life?

It's easy to find a loophole in a legal system that does not exist.

[KBomb]

Xeranx wrote...

Actually I'm not defending the Batarians. I haven't said they were in the right, but you are defending Vega and trying to minimize the things he did as nothing special. No one knows what loss of that magnitude is and I hope no one ever does, but you don't take a reaction like Vega's lightly in light of the number lost and a system on top of that.

You don't want real world matters brought into this, but I'm stating that there's is a case where reason no longer exists. Why else would I state that the Batarians gave him a chance to clarify his stance, but he refused to take it?

Nope, never said his jerking the television off the mount was reasonable or that he was right to do that. I was only offering an explanation as to why he may have done what was done. His feelings and motives behind it. Much like you say you aren’t defending the batarians, but instead offering insight as to why they did what they did, yes? Neither party used logic or discretion. I just see it as a bar fight that got out of hand--they have a tendency to do that, and I have yet to see one that was completed with reasonable logic. The batarians just got the worst of the fight. Someone usually does in a brawl.

[Chewin]

roflchoppaz wrote...
You always agree with him.

He always agrees and likes it too.

[sponge56]

Killer3000ad wrote...

Any lawyers here? Would a self-defense claim work for someone like Vega in real life?

Depends which country's law your on about.  If its the UK then I believe under english common law you have the right to defend yourself with reasonable force

Modifié par sponge56, 18 septembre 2011 - 06:42 .

[didymos1120]

Xeranx wrote...

I don't know where the talk of PTSD started and I don't remember it being stated by a developer or in the comic. 

It's a pretty straightforward inference based on Vega's outburst of anger and destruction of the TV and Anderson's reference to the events on Fehl which Vega would "rather not get over", and the fact that Vega has isolated himself, far from the Alliance, and spends his time drinking and playing cards.  Is it conclusive? No, but it explains the available evidence.

[Wulfram]

sponge56 wrote...

Killer3000ad wrote...

Any lawyers here? Would a self-defense claim work for someone like Vega in real life?

Depends which country's law your on about.  If its the UK then I believe under english common law you have the right to defend yourself with reasonable force

Does whacking an unarmed man with a TV count as reasonable force?

[AcidRelic]

I didn't read the comic but read up to page 3 here. Just a thought because I'm doing another ME2 play right now, and you said Vega was on Omega. What if those guys were the same  batarians that Shepard first meets going into Afterlife? That would be just funny, at least then you know they were just A-holes looking for a fight.

Modifié par AcidRelic, 18 septembre 2011 - 07:22 .