114 réponses à ce sujet

[EmperorSahlertz]

And then you jsut solved the mysterious inconsistencies for yourself. Anders could have met Justice in an infinite different ways, however, only one of them is known to us. That does not make it an inconsistency that Anders met Justice.

[LobselVith8]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

And then you jsut solved the mysterious inconsistencies for yourself. Anders could have met Justice in an infinite different ways, however, only one of them is known to us. That does not make it an inconsistency that Anders met Justice.

Which doesn't explain how Anders met Justice if Anders was never recruited and Justice was killed at the Dragonbone Wastes. It's an inconsistency with the timeline. Also, why would a pro-mage Warden-Commander even allow the templar Rolan into the Grey Wardens to watch over Anders? Especially if the Hero of Ferelden (like the Surana Warden) asked the new ruler of Ferelden to emancipate his people from servitude to the Chantry and its templars. It doesn't make any sense.

[RagingCyclone]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Anders can be in Kirkwall during act 1 without it causing any sort of timeline inconsistencies. If Awakening takes place at most 6 months after Origins, that gives Awakening about 9 months run time to get Anders to Kirkwall. Many people forget that DA2 does not start at the same time as DA:O. DA2 starts after one of the main quests in DA:O has been completed, and thus a few months into the Blight.
The only inconsistancies Anders presents, is how he ever met Justice, if either weren't recruited. Though, Anders being a mage offers many explanations. It is merely unknown.

Wow, you are skipping a lot of instances where the timeline doesn't match up. Others factors like the length of Origins itself (originally 2 years now shrank to 1) Oghren's child with Felsi (when was it conceived and what is the gestation period) and a few other facters that muddle the timeline up. The devs have already stated there was handwaving involved for Anders/Justice. There is really no way to reconcile the two timelines except to use Anders' own line that a "wizard did it"

[TJPags]

No, the timeline for Anders doesn't make sense, as far as his arrival in Kirkwall.

Yes, DA2 starts after one main quest in DAO - so, say 1/4 of the game. Hawke gets to Kirkwall before the blight is over - which is before Awakening happens. Awakening starts 6 months after the Blight ends. Anders has to hang out for Awakening, right? So how could he have been established as a healer in Kirkwall so early in Act 1? Actually, it would be before Act 1 ever starts, since he's there, established, when Act 1 starts. Hawke's year of service doesn't make it work, since during that year, we have the 6 months before Awakening to start, and the time for Awakening to take place, and then time for Anders to get to Kirkwall and get established.

The short story is inconsistent with a scenario in which Justice and Anders are both recruited, with one or more dying at Vigil's Keep.

The short story is COMPLETELY inconsistent with Anders faking his death at the end of Awakening.

And if he faked his death after Awakening, when the hell did any Warden Commander force him to give up Pounce?

There are a ton of time discrepencies, to say nothing of the personality discrepancy that a lot of people see.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

TJPags wrote...

No, the timeline for Anders doesn't make sense, as far as his arrival in Kirkwall.

Yes, DA2 starts after one main quest in DAO - so, say 1/4 of the game. Hawke gets to Kirkwall before the blight is over - which is before Awakening happens. Awakening starts 6 months after the Blight ends. Anders has to hang out for Awakening, right? So how could he have been established as a healer in Kirkwall so early in Act 1? Actually, it would be before Act 1 ever starts, since he's there, established, when Act 1 starts. Hawke's year of service doesn't make it work, since during that year, we have the 6 months before Awakening to start, and the time for Awakening to take place, and then time for Anders to get to Kirkwall and get established.

The short story is inconsistent with a scenario in which Justice and Anders are both recruited, with one or more dying at Vigil's Keep.

The short story is COMPLETELY inconsistent with Anders faking his death at the end of Awakening.

And if he faked his death after Awakening, when the hell did any Warden Commander force him to give up Pounce?

There are a ton of time discrepencies, to say nothing of the personality discrepancy that a lot of people see.

Agreed. Awakening at least spans a few months, given that you're repairing a keep and outfitting an army, as well as dodging assassination plots and uncovering a grand darkspawn mutation. Given all that, it's even harder to reconcile him being in Kirkwall healing away with Justice in him. i highly doubt he joined with Justice and split the day after the Mother/Architect were dealt with.

And the short story further complicates matters, because then you would have to allow for the Warden Commander change of command and everything that followed, and that borks the timeline even further. The only way the timeline would make sense in game is if Hawke was fleeing Lothering at the end of the Blight. Which, would then really bork Flemmeth, since by the end of the Blight, she's either been killed by the Warden, or has disappeared elsewhere.

The personality inconsistancies are harder to pinpoint, because you don't know how much is Anders, justice, or the product of their "mind meld". The game should have at least explored that further.

[EmperorSahlertz]

The short story, just like the Asunder novel, has to establish its own canon for the story to function. Asunder is also inconsistent with a player who killed Wynne nad/or Shale, but it has.

[TJPags]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

The short story, just like the Asunder novel, has to establish its own canon for the story to function. Asunder is also inconsistent with a player who killed Wynne nad/or Shale, but it has.

But see, that's exactly the inconsistency that I, at least, am talking about.

I've not read Asunder - I had my fill with tST - but if it's inconsistent with possibilities in game, then it shouldn't have been written.  At least, not the way it might have been.

There's just way too much handwaving going on with DA2, and apparently with DAO/DAA, based on what you say about Asunder.

For this - or any other series - to have any credible timeline, these inconsistencies should be kept to an absolute minimum - zero, ideally,  But if there is going to be one, it should be at least compatible with existing scenarios, even if somewhat far-fetched.

Sure, I know, it's BW game, they can do what they want.  But they want us to appreciate it, don't they?  Sticking these apparent plot impossibilities in there and expecting us to either not notice or not care is hardly compatible with wanting to extablish a vibrant, viable world.

[EmperorSahlertz]

It is not handwaving, it is establishing a canon to facilitate the telling of a story. The writers have to sometimes do that, with their own story. That they own. Which they themselves have come up with. Asunder does not handwave anyone's playthrough where they've kileld Wynne. They simply tell the story of what would have happend if they didn't. Same goes for the Anders short story.

[TJPags]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

It is not handwaving, it is establishing a canon to facilitate the telling of a story. The writers have to sometimes do that, with their own story. That they own. Which they themselves have come up with. Asunder does not handwave anyone's playthrough where they've kileld Wynne. They simply tell the story of what would have happend if they didn't. Same goes for the Anders short story.

I accept that they created, and own, the story.  So no need to repeat that.

Maybe we have a difference in the understanding of canon.

I understand canon to be, that which exists regardless of variables. 

So, Alistair is Maric'sa bastard son = canon.
Wynne is a Circle mage = canon.
The 5th Blight occurred, and was ended by the Hero of Ferelden = canon.

Alistair is King of Ferelden is NOT canon, not for the world.  Maybe in a given game it is, but not outside that game.
Wynne alive or dead are also variables, which may have happened in a given game.

So, when the author of something that gives us those options to change the canon - Wynne, the Circle mage (canon) was killed in the Broken Circle quest (variable), I have issues with them making one of those variables "canon". 

In other words, how can I take the choice given in the game seriously, and await the expansion of that choice, if I know they are going to make one of those choices canon in another medium, such as a book?  That kind of destroys any continuity in the game franchise, IMO.

[Monica21]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

It is not handwaving, it is establishing a canon to facilitate the telling of a story. The writers have to sometimes do that, with their own story. That they own. Which they themselves have come up with. Asunder does not handwave anyone's playthrough where they've kileld Wynne. They simply tell the story of what would have happend if they didn't. Same goes for the Anders short story.

Well, it is handwaving if the canon they are creating doesn't make sense. Anders can't be in Amaranthine and in Kirkwall at the same time, which is what you have to believe if you go by canon just from the games. Throw the short story in, and it makes even less sense.

[EmperorSahlertz]

They aren't creating any canon! They are creating a canon for the book, and the book alone. They are not trying to invalidate anyone's playthrough.

Look at it this way. The novel Asunder, is simply a story about what Wynne does afterwards if she survived DA:O. It isn't established canon anymore than when I annulled the Circle in Ferelden.
In my playthrough, Wynne is dead, and that is my canon. In the book Wynne is alive, and that is the book's canon. Neither have any more value than the other.

[RagingCyclone]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

They aren't creating any canon! They are creating a canon for the book, and the book alone. They are not trying to invalidate anyone's playthrough.

Look at it this way. The novel Asunder, is simply a story about what Wynne does afterwards if she survived DA:O. It isn't established canon anymore than when I annulled the Circle in Ferelden.
In my playthrough, Wynne is dead, and that is my canon. In the book Wynne is alive, and that is the book's canon. Neither have any more value than the other.

Anders existence in DA2 is creating canon...Leliana's appearance in DA2 is creating canon...they've been creating canon all along.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

RagingCyclone wrote...

Anders existence in DA2 is creating canon...Leliana's appearance in DA2 is creating canon...they've been creating canon all along.

Exactly. Anders surviving Awakening is canon, no matter what you do to him. If he does not survive, or become a Warden, then he either cheats death, or escapes the templars once more and gets Wardened later.

Regardless of what choices you made regarding Anders, his appearance in Act 1 so soon as an established healer of Ferelden refugees makes no sense, unless the beginning of act 1 takes place far later than is said in the story. He always ends up a Warden, one way or another. That's canon. And it seems to defy the timeline, unless Awakening took a week and a day time span. Which I somehow doubt.

[EmperorSahlertz]

I was talking about the short story and Asunder. What happens in the game is canon. Anyway, Anders' presence in Kirkwall isn't handwaving in anyway, since it is explained. It is somewhat hidden, but it is referenced how he "survived" dying, if you take him to speak with Nathaniel. And if he was taken away, it doesn't need much explanation.

[TJPags]

Anders is there too early. That, to me, is a handwave of the timeline.

Anders is always a warden. That, to me, is a handwave of DAA choices.

Anders is always alive. That, to me, is a handwave of the Anders death in DAA. Explained, yes, but an explanation doesn't make it less of a handwave.

Hell, I'm pretty sure if Anders lives, it's said he stays with the Wardens a long time, except for one brief trip to give a speech at a Circle. So him not being WITH the Wardens is even a handwave (although, as my sig says, BW doesn't consider epilogue's to be anything more than rumor or hearsay, so it's, I guess, a handwave they don't mind).

Now, if you or others don't mind these things, that's great. I'm not saying they're game shattering or anything. But not minding them doesn't make them any less of a handwave.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

I was talking about the short story and Asunder. What happens in the game is canon. Anyway, Anders' presence in Kirkwall isn't handwaving in anyway, since it is explained. It is somewhat hidden, but it is referenced how he "survived" dying, if you take him to speak with Nathaniel. And if he was taken away, it doesn't need much explanation.

Anders presence in Kirkwall is not explained in a manner that does not violate the space-time continum. That is what is being handwaved. Regardless of what choices you made with Anders in Awakening, he should not be in Kirkwall at all when Act 1 opens up. Let alone be a well established healer in Darktown. Unless DA2 Justers is really an evil clone escaped from Avernus lab or something.

[megski]

I always imagined the wardens as any other type of military or army, I figure that people could have their own time to take care of personal business, for example, Anders going off to the circle to make a speech, I think it was mentioned in the awakening epilogue. Especially if said warden is one of the warden commander's favorites, which he was one of mine. One thing that irritated me concerning Anders was that after he was conscripted, he was still harassed. I conscripted him, end of story. If you don't like it, you can shove it, or I could just stab you. Since I liked him, that was kind of my way of trying to give him some type of freedom, so if given the choice of allowing Anders to do something he wanted away from the wardens, I would have agreed to that. With this being said, if some one joined the wardens over my head simply to try and harass or murder one of my favorite wardens, I can't imagine I'd be too heartbroken if Anders murdered them. If me cutting down templars they sent after him wasn't enough initiative for them to stay away from him, I guess if the only way for Anders to be able to live a decent life was to leave the wardens, I would be cool with that. If anyone asked, he was eaten by an Ogre.

[TEWR]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

I was talking about the short story and Asunder. What happens in the game is canon. Anyway, Anders' presence in Kirkwall isn't handwaving in anyway, since it is explained. It is somewhat hidden, but it is referenced how he "survived" dying, if you take him to speak with Nathaniel. And if he was taken away, it doesn't need much explanation.

Anders presence in Kirkwall is not explained in a manner that does not violate the space-time continum. That is what is being handwaved. Regardless of what choices you made with Anders in Awakening, he should not be in Kirkwall at all when Act 1 opens up. Let alone be a well established healer in Darktown. Unless DA2 Justers is really an evil clone escaped from Avernus lab or something.

All confusion on the continuity could've been averted if Hawke had spent 2 years with Athenril/Meeran and not 1.

[rak72]

Getting a Templar could be a real coup for the Wardens since the Chantry doesn't give them up so easily. I can see a Warden commander thinking it would be worth it having him follow around Anders. If Anders was keeping his nose clean, he wouldn't have anything to worry about.

I can also see giving Anders a leave of absence to do his speech, but not retiring after 3 mos of service.

Edit - and yes, 2 yrs with Atheneral would have solved a lot of story problems.

Modifié par rak72, 19 septembre 2011 - 09:33 .

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

rak72 wrote...

Getting a Templar could be a real coup for the Wardens since the Chantry doesn't give them up so easily. I can see a Warden commander thinking it would be worth it having him follow around Anders. If Anders was keeping his nose clean, he wouldn't have anything to worry about.

It wouldn't be a good idea if it was a templar with active ties to the Chantry. The Wardens permit and frequently utilize blood magic and other forbidden arts, so I do not know what one would have to watch Anders for in the first place. The Wardens certainly weren't bothered by Avernus.

[rak72]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

rak72 wrote...

Getting a Templar could be a real coup for the Wardens since the Chantry doesn't give them up so easily. I can see a Warden commander thinking it would be worth it having him follow around Anders. If Anders was keeping his nose clean, he wouldn't have anything to worry about.

It wouldn't be a good idea if it was a templar with active ties to the Chantry. The Wardens permit and frequently utilize blood magic and other forbidden arts, so I do not know what one would have to watch Anders for in the first place. The Wardens certainly weren't bothered by Avernus.

The Warden Commander would have to make sure the templar knows he is a Warden now and not a chantry spy.  If the Templar isn't behaving, then send him on a mission somewhere very deep in the deep roads.

We don't really know if the templar in question was just being a warden who happens to be a Templar that was assigned to Anders group, or if he was a tool.  Anders paranoia about templars could have caused him to snap even if the templar wasn't being an ass.

I think even if the Templar joined to be a spy, his loyalty would have to switch to the Wardens.  He's depending on them to watch his back in battle, I think the bonds would quickly form under those circumstances

[TJPags]

rak72 wrote...

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

rak72 wrote...

Getting a Templar could be a real coup for the Wardens since the Chantry doesn't give them up so easily. I can see a Warden commander thinking it would be worth it having him follow around Anders. If Anders was keeping his nose clean, he wouldn't have anything to worry about.

It wouldn't be a good idea if it was a templar with active ties to the Chantry. The Wardens permit and frequently utilize blood magic and other forbidden arts, so I do not know what one would have to watch Anders for in the first place. The Wardens certainly weren't bothered by Avernus.

The Warden Commander would have to make sure the templar knows he is a Warden now and not a chantry spy.  If the Templar isn't behaving, then send him on a mission somewhere very deep in the deep roads.

We don't really know if the templar in question was just being a warden who happens to be a Templar that was assigned to Anders group, or if he was a tool.  Anders paranoia about templars could have caused him to snap even if the templar wasn't being an ass.

I think even if the Templar joined to be a spy, his loyalty would have to switch to the Wardens.  He's depending on them to watch his back in battle, I think the bonds would quickly form under those circumstances

Well, part of the key to being a spy is to keep your loyalties secret.  So it's kind of silly to say the spy-templar (assuming there is such a thing) would have to shift his loyalties.  That's exactly the point - make it seem that way only, with the reality never changing.

Basically, I can't see a templar looking to join the Wardens, and if one did, I can see all sorts of red-flags being raised around the Wardens, especially given the attempt to capture Anders after he's recruited in DAA. 

Now, a NON-Templar who is just a spy for them makes more sense.  But since the whole short story is kind of "out-there" for me, I have a hard time digesting the scenario here . . .not to mention the timeline involved . . . .

[Bullets McDeath]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

I was talking about the short story and Asunder. What happens in the game is canon. Anyway, Anders' presence in Kirkwall isn't handwaving in anyway, since it is explained. It is somewhat hidden, but it is referenced how he "survived" dying, if you take him to speak with Nathaniel. And if he was taken away, it doesn't need much explanation.

Anders presence in Kirkwall is not explained in a manner that does not violate the space-time continum. That is what is being handwaved. Regardless of what choices you made with Anders in Awakening, he should not be in Kirkwall at all when Act 1 opens up. Let alone be a well established healer in Darktown. Unless DA2 Justers is really an evil clone escaped from Avernus lab or something.

All confusion on the continuity could've been averted if Hawke had spent 2 years with Athenril/Meeran and not 1.

LOL, that's the personal handwave I used to make it all jibe for me.

I still find it annoying though. Kind of like the Leliana being alive/inexplicably resurrected, they clearly (seems clear to me, anyway) based it off what "most" players did. I don't think I need to elaborate why that's a terrible decision in a game that makes such noise about letting us make choices and change the world. Even if it is understandable from a design standpoint.

It's probably a safe bet that "most" Mass Effect players left Kaidan to die on Virmire; the ME team did not thusly decide to put a living Ashley in all future games. They let you make a choice, and further games in the series reflected it. Especially as Dragon Age was conceived as an ongoing franchise with save imports between titles, I find these kinds of snafus to be inexcusable. To say nothing of the technical difficulties they've had with them as well.

But, as wiser men than me have said...

if you're wondering how they eat and breathe
and other science facts (tra la la)
repeat to yourself "it's just a show,
I should really just relax'''

Even given all of that, the problems they've had with the DA timeline are still pretty bad.

[Chuvvy]

rak72 wrote...

I don't remember the story too well, but I thought there were a few of them there. Either way, the Wardens don't seem like the type that would just let their members come & go as they please.

Sure they recruit murderers, but I don't think killing your "brothers in arms" would be looked favorably upon.

He cut off a guys head and drank his blood. I'm not sure if the blood drinking was intentional, but I remeber he got some of it in his mouth.

Modifié par Slidell505, 20 septembre 2011 - 12:33 .

[TEWR]

LOL, that's the personal handwave I used to make it all jibe for me.

I still find it annoying though. Kind of like the Leliana being alive/inexplicably resurrected, they clearly (seems clear to me, anyway) based it off what "most" players did. I don't think I need to elaborate why that's a terrible decision in a game that makes such noise about letting us make choices and change the world. Even if it is understandable from a design standpoint.

It's probably a safe bet that "most" Mass Effect players left Kaidan to die on Virmire; the ME team did not thusly decide to put a living Ashley in all future games. They let you make a choice, and further games in the series reflected it. Especially as Dragon Age was conceived as an ongoing franchise with save imports between titles, I find these kinds of snafus to be inexcusable. To say nothing of the technical difficulties they've had with them as well.

To be fair, Leliana is killed in a magical place that is almost fused with magic (as Wynne states) and have magical healing Ashes everywhere. But I do agree that while there is plenty to explain how she's alive, it's the lack of a cutscene or codex entry in DAO to say she might not die from the battle with the Warden that is what bugs people.

Hopefully, the explanation that the devs have said we'll be given --along with Leliana's DAII codex entry-- is a valid one that satisfies most, if not all, of the players.