114 réponses à ce sujet

[TJPags]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

LOL, that's the personal handwave I used to make it all jibe for me.

I still find it annoying though. Kind of like the Leliana being alive/inexplicably resurrected, they clearly (seems clear to me, anyway) based it off what "most" players did. I don't think I need to elaborate why that's a terrible decision in a game that makes such noise about letting us make choices and change the world. Even if it is understandable from a design standpoint.

It's probably a safe bet that "most" Mass Effect players left Kaidan to die on Virmire; the ME team did not thusly decide to put a living Ashley in all future games. They let you make a choice, and further games in the series reflected it. Especially as Dragon Age was conceived as an ongoing franchise with save imports between titles, I find these kinds of snafus to be inexcusable. To say nothing of the technical difficulties they've had with them as well.

To be fair, Leliana is killed in a magical place that is almost fused with magic (as Wynne states) and have magical healing Ashes everywhere. But I do agree that while there is plenty to explain how she's alive, it's the lack of a cutscene or codex entry in DAO to say she might not die from the battle with the Warden that is what bugs people.

Hopefully, the explanation that the devs have said we'll be given --along with Leliana's DAII codex entry-- is a valid one that satisfies most, if not all, of the players.

Ahhh, Leliana . . I've agreed to wait for the explanation before going down that road further than I have in the past.

For now, I completely agree with your point about lack of explanation . . . that's the point that, as of now, really gets me.  Things like that - and like Anders, to keep this one topic - shouldn't just pop up without explanation. 

And no, I really shouldn't have to wait until game 3 for explanations regarding simple continuity in Game 2.  Unless it's some sudden surprise cliffhangar, which does nothing BUT hint about the next game.  Neither Leliana nor Anders qualify as something that exists JUST to hint at DA3.

[LobselVith8]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

LOL, that's the personal handwave I used to make it all jibe for me.

I still find it annoying though. Kind of like the Leliana being alive/inexplicably resurrected, they clearly (seems clear to me, anyway) based it off what "most" players did. I don't think I need to elaborate why that's a terrible decision in a game that makes such noise about letting us make choices and change the world. Even if it is understandable from a design standpoint.

It's probably a safe bet that "most" Mass Effect players left Kaidan to die on Virmire; the ME team did not thusly decide to put a living Ashley in all future games. They let you make a choice, and further games in the series reflected it. Especially as Dragon Age was conceived as an ongoing franchise with save imports between titles, I find these kinds of snafus to be inexcusable. To say nothing of the technical difficulties they've had with them as well.

To be fair, Leliana is killed in a magical place that is almost fused with magic (as Wynne states) and have magical healing Ashes everywhere. But I do agree that while there is plenty to explain how she's alive, it's the lack of a cutscene or codex entry in DAO to say she might not die from the battle with the Warden that is what bugs people.

Hopefully, the explanation that the devs have said we'll be given --along with Leliana's DAII codex entry-- is a valid one that satisfies most, if not all, of the players.

I think the crux of the problem is bringing a character back to life when your protagonist killed her.

[TEWR]

LobselVith8 wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

LOL, that's the personal handwave I used to make it all jibe for me.

I still find it annoying though. Kind of like the Leliana being alive/inexplicably resurrected, they clearly (seems clear to me, anyway) based it off what "most" players did. I don't think I need to elaborate why that's a terrible decision in a game that makes such noise about letting us make choices and change the world. Even if it is understandable from a design standpoint.

It's probably a safe bet that "most" Mass Effect players left Kaidan to die on Virmire; the ME team did not thusly decide to put a living Ashley in all future games. They let you make a choice, and further games in the series reflected it. Especially as Dragon Age was conceived as an ongoing franchise with save imports between titles, I find these kinds of snafus to be inexcusable. To say nothing of the technical difficulties they've had with them as well.

To be fair, Leliana is killed in a magical place that is almost fused with magic (as Wynne states) and have magical healing Ashes everywhere. But I do agree that while there is plenty to explain how she's alive, it's the lack of a cutscene or codex entry in DAO to say she might not die from the battle with the Warden that is what bugs people.

Hopefully, the explanation that the devs have said we'll be given --along with Leliana's DAII codex entry-- is a valid one that satisfies most, if not all, of the players.

I think the crux of the problem is bringing a character back to life when your protagonist killed her.

The crux of the problem is that Bioware failed to give us anything that implied Leliana may survive. The secondary problem is that people were led to believe they killed Leliana.

TJPags wrote...

Ahhh, Leliana . . I've agreed to wait for the explanation before going down that road further than I have in the past.

For now, I completely agree with your point about lack of explanation . . . that's the point that, as of now, really gets me.  Things like that - and like Anders, to keep this one topic - shouldn't just pop up without explanation. 

And no, I really shouldn't have to wait until game 3 for explanations regarding simple continuity in Game 2.  Unless it's some sudden surprise cliffhangar, which does nothing BUT hint about the next game.  Neither Leliana nor Anders qualify as something that exists JUST to hint at DA3.

Let's hope MotA has the explanation.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 20 septembre 2011 - 02:26 .

[Sepewrath]

What people fail to realize is that just because you steer events in one direction, that doesn't mean it must end there and go no further. Its like if you made Anora queen and then in the years after Origins, she was deposed. In simple terms s*** happens, the same way your protagonist undoes what people thought they had set in stone, why the cant the same happen to the PC? You thought you killed Leliana, but you decided to not bother dragging her body out of the magical tomb, so she gets to live.

And when it comes to Anders, with all the stuff the Wardens are into, I don't think they have time to be chasing people around. I think they would only chase someone who is a threat to giving away their secrets.

[rak72]

^^ They may be busy, but one person decides they can leave whenever, then the rest decide to do the same. No military unit can function like that.

[Sepewrath]

Even if you chase them down and "make an example of them" There is nothing stopping everyone from abandoning the order anyway i.e Templar's. You can never control people like that, not forever at least. Their best bet is to instill a sense of importance in their duty, that most will not just easily throw away. Even that doesn't last forever, as circumstance can put a dent in that as well. But you do that and you don't have to worry about "He left, so I'm leaving" "They left, so we're out of here"

[TJPags]

Sepewrath wrote...

What people fail to realize is that just because you steer events in one direction, that doesn't mean it must end there and go no further. Its like if you made Anora queen and then in the years after Origins, she was deposed. In simple terms s*** happens, the same way your protagonist undoes what people thought they had set in stone, why the cant the same happen to the PC? You thought you killed Leliana, but you decided to not bother dragging her body out of the magical tomb, so she gets to live.

And when it comes to Anders, with all the stuff the Wardens are into, I don't think they have time to be chasing people around. I think they would only chase someone who is a threat to giving away their secrets.

I'll leave the Leliana stuff for the time when we get the promised explanation.

As to Anders - the problem for me is not that he left the Wardens, really.  It's that he seems to have gotten to Kirkwall before he ever left the Wardens.  And became a Warden no matter what, even if you turned him down (we're told in DAA that there were no other Wardens in Ferelden, so who recrutied him, and when?).  And met Justice, no matter what (who only existed in Amaranthine, and may have still been in what's his names rotting corpse after Vigil's Keep, while Anders was off in Kirkwall).  And was forced by the Warden Commander to give up his cat - even if he left after faking his death at the battle of Vigil's Keep (You're never given an option to make him give up his cat during DAA, you know).

In short, they either botched the crap out of the timeline, or invalidated choices.  Either way, it doesn't seem good for a game series that's supposed to be concerned with continuity.

[RagingCyclone]

And let's not forget Sir Pounce A Lot...the cat is a gift from the Warden Commander meaning he had to be recruited in Awakening and at least go through the time it took to resolve that situuation...and then have someone take the cat away. That is a timeline hole that is highlighted in DA2.

[Urzon]

The simplest solution is usually always correct.

The character in DA2 is really Anders, Anders' twin/magical copy. The real Anders is away with the Warden Commander (playing the part of healer) in a secret mission for the Gray Wardens to save the world, and they made a copy to take Anders to take his place. Thus Anders was born to throw off any suspicions of Anders' role in said secret mission. And what better way to do that then to start a war.

[BevH]

I'm glad to see I'm not the only one aggravated by the timeline inconsistancy.

To make it even murkier than some have already described here, the inconsistance gets even worse if the Warden Commander was HNF and married Alistair. So, the timeline now goes something like this:

Blight takes about a year to end.
Alistair crowned king shortly thereafter.
Alistair and HNF married 6 months after that.
Alistair and his queen tour Ferelden. (I kind of figure that must take at least a couple of months.)

To this point, we're already at least a year and a half from the start of Origins.

Hawke and company flee Lothering. (Which I think occurs about a month after the start of Origins.)
Hawke arrives in Kirkwall, a journey Varric says takes 2 weeks.
Hawke starts a year of servitude.
Hawke meets Varric at the end of that time.
Hawke meets Anders.

Ok, adding all of this up, I get that we're about maybe 14 months from the start of Origins.

I think my head is going to explode...

[TEWR]

BevH wrote...

I'm glad to see I'm not the only one aggravated by the timeline inconsistancy.

To make it even murkier than some have already described here, the inconsistance gets even worse if the Warden Commander was HNF and married Alistair. So, the timeline now goes something like this:

Blight takes about a year to end.
Alistair crowned king shortly thereafter.
Alistair and HNF married 6 months after that.
Alistair and his queen tour Ferelden. (I kind of figure that must take at least a couple of months.)

To this point, we're already at least a year and a half from the start of Origins.

Hawke and company flee Lothering. (Which I think occurs about a month after the start of Origins.)
Hawke arrives in Kirkwall, a journey Varric says takes 2 weeks.
Hawke starts a year of servitude.
Hawke meets Varric at the end of that time.
Hawke meets Anders.

Ok, adding all of this up, I get that we're about maybe 14 months from the start of Origins.

I think my head is going to explode...

I'd say Hawke's flight takes place a couple of months after the start of Origins, but you also have to account for time between certain quests in terms of Thedas' time. Not everyone immediately goes to meet Anders, and what is 20 minutes between two quests for us may actually be 2 days between two quests for Hawke.

[BevH]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

I'd say Hawke's flight takes place a couple of months after the start of Origins, but you also have to account for time between certain quests in terms of Thedas' time. Not everyone immediately goes to meet Anders, and what is 20 minutes between two quests for us may actually be 2 days between two quests for Hawke.

Oh, I know, and I have put off Anders first quest. The point that people were making, though, is the fact that you can meet Anders almost first thing in Act 1. And even then, we're still talking only about 15-16 months after the start of Origins. That's not even taking into account the time for Awakenings.

Modifié par BevH, 20 septembre 2011 - 05:43 .

[Monica21]

Why was it so important to meet Anders in Act 1 anyway? I really don't think needing Grey Warden maps is a good enough reason to have such a convoluted timeline. If you save Avernus you stumble across his notes and a potion, so why not stumble across maps? Not to mention Bethany has access to the Creation tree, so I can do without another healer. I guess then you have to wonder what happens to Bethany in the Deep Roads, but you might as well stumble across Stroud instead of having Anders lead you to him. I think you still have the option of refusing the Joining even after meeting him. You're managing to run into Wardens through much of the pivotal events of the story anyway, so I don't see why they couldn't happen then as well.

The timeline can't make sense, and the only way the separation from Anders makes any sense with my Warden is if his short story events (which I consider canon) happened during Witch Hunt. That takes place what, two to three years after the Blight?

Edited because I shouldn't post when I'm tired.

Modifié par Monica21, 20 septembre 2011 - 06:30 .

[LobselVith8]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

I think the crux of the problem is bringing a character back to life when your protagonist killed her.

The crux of the problem is that Bioware failed to give us anything that implied Leliana may survive. The secondary problem is that people were led to believe they killed Leliana.

Why should Leliana survive if The Warden killed her? After what Leliana said in "Faith," I would have had my protagonist kill her.

[EmperorSahlertz]

To advance the plot?

[LobselVith8]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

To advance the plot?

Because no one but Leliana can say The Warden and Hawke disappeared?

[SerraAdvocate]

LobselVith8 wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

I think the crux of the problem is bringing a character back to life when your protagonist killed her.

The crux of the problem is that Bioware failed to give us anything that implied Leliana may survive. The secondary problem is that people were led to believe they killed Leliana.

Why should Leliana survive if The Warden killed her? After what Leliana said in "Faith," I would have had my protagonist kill her.

I actually think Leliana is communing with some kind of uber-powerful figure. Whether it is "the Maker" or not, I can't say for certain. But I suspect her potential death is explained away by the fact that she's protected and potentially resurrected by a god-like figure who still has need of her. 

Modifié par Helm505, 20 septembre 2011 - 04:43 .

[Monica21]

LobselVith8 wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

I think the crux of the problem is bringing a character back to life when your protagonist killed her.

The crux of the problem is that Bioware failed to give us anything that implied Leliana may survive. The secondary problem is that people were led to believe they killed Leliana.

Why should Leliana survive if The Warden killed her? After what Leliana said in "Faith," I would have had my protagonist kill her.

Wouldn't killing a personal agent of the Divine just make the Chantry act against Kirkwall faster?

[LobselVith8]

Monica21 wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Why should Leliana survive if The Warden killed her? After what Leliana said in "Faith," I would have had my protagonist kill her.

Wouldn't killing a personal agent of the Divine just make the Chantry act against Kirkwall faster?

Who is going to tell the Divine? How would anyone even know that one corpse is different from all the other corpses in the Viscount's Keep?

[EmperorSahlertz]

LobselVith8 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

To advance the plot?

Because no one but Leliana can say The Warden and Hawke disappeared?

No one but Lelianna can return from the dead, more like.

[LobselVith8]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

To advance the plot?

Because no one but Leliana can say The Warden and Hawke disappeared?

No one but Lelianna can return from the dead, more like.

Which denigrates the decision for the people who had their specific Warden kill her.

[Giggles_Manically]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Monica21 wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Why should Leliana survive if The Warden killed her? After what Leliana said in "Faith," I would have had my protagonist kill her.

Wouldn't killing a personal agent of the Divine just make the Chantry act against Kirkwall faster?

Who is going to tell the Divine? How would anyone even know that one corpse is different from all the other corpses in the Viscount's Keep?

Because she um... did not report back?
Duh. 

[LobselVith8]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Monica21 wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Why should Leliana survive if The Warden killed her? After what Leliana said in "Faith," I would have had my protagonist kill her.

Wouldn't killing a personal agent of the Divine just make the Chantry act against Kirkwall faster?

Who is going to tell the Divine? How would anyone even know that one corpse is different from all the other corpses in the Viscount's Keep?

Because she um... did not report back?
Duh.  

In other words, the Divine won't actually know that Hawke is responsible for killing Leliana, or that she died in Kirkwall?

[SerraAdvocate]

LobselVith8 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

To advance the plot?

Because no one but Leliana can say The Warden and Hawke disappeared?

No one but Lelianna can return from the dead, more like.

Which denigrates the decision for the people who had their specific Warden kill her.

Disagree. It emphasizes Leliana's importance to the storyline.

[LobselVith8]

Helm505 wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Which denigrates the decision for the people who had their specific Warden kill her.

Disagree. It emphasizes Leliana's importance to the storyline.

I don't see her line at the end of Dragon Age 2 being that important. And after "Faith," I find her to be a dislikable character who I would rather see dead.