114 réponses à ce sujet

[Monica21]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Giggles_Manically wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Monica21 wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Why should Leliana survive if The Warden killed her? After what Leliana said in "Faith," I would have had my protagonist kill her.

Wouldn't killing a personal agent of the Divine just make the Chantry act against Kirkwall faster?

Who is going to tell the Divine? How would anyone even know that one corpse is different from all the other corpses in the Viscount's Keep?

Because she um... did not report back?
Duh.  

In other words, the Divine won't actually know that Hawke is responsible for killing Leliana, or that she died in Kirkwall?

Well, the Grand Cleric knows that Sister Nightengale is in Kirkwall. Elthina tells Hawke. Hawke is supposed to meet her. If nothing else, Elthina would have cause to believe that she died in Kirkwall, that Hawke may have been the last person to see her, and report such information when the Divine sends even more agents to question the Sister's disappearance.

[LobselVith8]

Monica21 wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

In other words, the Divine won't actually know that Hawke is responsible for killing Leliana, or that she died in Kirkwall?

Well, the Grand Cleric knows that Sister Nightengale is in Kirkwall. Elthina tells Hawke. Hawke is supposed to meet her. If nothing else, Elthina would have cause to believe that she died in Kirkwall, that Hawke may have been the last person to see her, and report such information when the Divine sends even more agents to question the Sister's disappearance.

If Hawke says there was an ambush and no 'Sister Nightingale,' then that's pretty much it. If Elthina didn't trust Hawke, I doubt she would have sent him in the first place, so she would probably trust what he told her (like she does if he lies on behalf of Mother Petrice).

[SerraAdvocate]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Monica21 wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

In other words, the Divine won't actually know that Hawke is responsible for killing Leliana, or that she died in Kirkwall?

Well, the Grand Cleric knows that Sister Nightengale is in Kirkwall. Elthina tells Hawke. Hawke is supposed to meet her. If nothing else, Elthina would have cause to believe that she died in Kirkwall, that Hawke may have been the last person to see her, and report such information when the Divine sends even more agents to question the Sister's disappearance.

If Hawke says there was an ambush and no 'Sister Nightingale,' then that's pretty much it. If Elthina didn't trust Hawke, I doubt she would have sent him in the first place, so she would probably trust what he told her (like she does if he lies on behalf of Mother Petrice).

It's not up to Elthina. Elthina sent you to talk Leliana out of having the Divine send an army. If Leliana went to investigate and never came back, the Divine would certainly take that as a bad sign and probably send said army.

[LobselVith8]

Helm505 wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

If Hawke says there was an ambush and no 'Sister Nightingale,' then that's pretty much it. If Elthina didn't trust Hawke, I doubt she would have sent him in the first place, so she would probably trust what he told her (like she does if he lies on behalf of Mother Petrice).

It's not up to Elthina. Elthina sent you to talk Leliana out of having the Divine send an army. If Leliana went to investigate and never came back, the Divine would certainly take that as a bad sign and probably send said army.

As bad of a sign as Leliana blaming the unrest on the mages in a city-state where the templars and mages have united against the Knight-Commander, and the civilians and nobles can support Hawke's demand for Meredith to step down from her position as a dictator? Where Meredith's death squad is murdering civilians? I'd rather have my protagonist take the risk in getting rid of Leliana because she's evidently too inept to actually do what she was sent to do.

[Monica21]

LobselVith8 wrote...
As bad of a sign as Leliana blaming the unrest on the mages in a city-state where the templars and mages have united against the Knight-Commander, and the civilians and nobles can support Hawke's demand for Meredith to step down from her position as a dictator? Where Meredith's death squad is murdering civilians? I'd rather have my protagonist take the risk in getting rid of Leliana because she's evidently too inept to actually do what she was sent to do.

Well, Leliana is blaming unrest on the Resolutionists. The same people who were waiting for you when you went to meet her and then decided to kill you on sight just because they thought you were a Seeker. She's not blaming all mages.

There is a small group of Templars and mages who have united, but of course, one of those turns abomination because you won't let her kill your sister. These mages are hardly stable individuals.

[RagingCyclone]

Chiming in because the OP is a friend of mine, but aren't there already two or three threads discussing Leliana like you are all doing right now? She was posting about Anders and the Wardens, how this leapfrogged into Leliana territory that has been discussed in other threads ad nauseum I have no idea.

[Monica21]

RagingCyclone wrote...

Chiming in because the OP is a friend of mine, but aren't there already two or three threads discussing Leliana like you are all doing right now? She was posting about Anders and the Wardens, how this leapfrogged into Leliana territory that has been discussed in other threads ad nauseum I have no idea.

OOO! I know how! The handwaving talk about Anders got started and then someone mentioned Leliana's presence being handwaved if you killed her and then it morphed into, "Let's talk about Leliana and her role in the Chantry." 

But, I agree. It's pretty far OT.

[TEWR]

LobselVith8 wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

I think the crux of the problem is bringing a character back to life when your protagonist killed her.

The crux of the problem is that Bioware failed to give us anything that implied Leliana may survive. The secondary problem is that people were led to believe they killed Leliana.

Why should Leliana survive if The Warden killed her? After what Leliana said in "Faith," I would have had my protagonist kill her.

Why should the Warden kill her at all? Perhaps the Warden just wants to teach her a lesson. Perhaps the Warden wants her to live, but realize that the Urn is not the most important thing right now. Perhaps he just wants to wound her enough so she won't be trouble anymore.

As I said, the crux of the problem is that players in Origins were given no inclination that she was still alive or would still live.

[FieryDove]

Stoomkal wrote...

What... details about Anders that make absolutely no sense? NEVER!!!

Listen - it is best to consider the *two* Anders completely different people.

One is "happy go lucky" and was always talking about girls.

One is dark, brooding, and has a things for guys...

Apart from the change in voice actor, I am not sure there is anything else I can use to describe how little attention or care they paid to make Anders a *consistent* character.

So he wasn't.

He just comes off as a completely revised character, which is a feature of bad writing. It was deeply important to make sure that already established personalities remained consistent in the story, but they didn't really do this.

I agree with this mostly.

I don't think it can be pinned to *bad writing* more like different writing. I am pretty sure each *Anders* had different writers. That is like getting a whole new brain for an NPC. So yep, two Anders.

I was not pleased. Yes I am a DAA Anders and Justice fangrl. What happaned to both doesn't always click or make sense even within the short story/DA2 storyline.

[LobselVith8]

Monica21 wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

As bad of a sign as Leliana blaming the unrest on the mages in a city-state where the templars and mages have united against the Knight-Commander, and the civilians and nobles can support Hawke's demand for Meredith to step down from her position as a dictator? Where Meredith's death squad is murdering civilians? I'd rather have my protagonist take the risk in getting rid of Leliana because she's evidently too inept to actually do what she was sent to do.

Well, Leliana is blaming unrest on the Resolutionists.

Despite evidence pointing to the dictator who has ruled Kirkwall for three years.

Monica21 wrote...

The same people who were waiting for you when you went to meet her and then decided to kill you on sight just because they thought you were a Seeker.

Given what Leliana says in "Faith," I'd have had my Hawke killed her. Maybe she has that effect on people.

Monica21 wrote...

She's not blaming all mages.

That's not the impression I got from what Leliana said as Sister Nightingale.

Monica21 wrote...

There is a small group of Templars and mages who have united, but of course, one of those turns abomination because you won't let her kill your sister. These mages are hardly stable individuals.

One single mage goes insane during "Best Served Cold" because the Plot Dictates, even though the narrative doesn't make any sense for a pro-mage Hawke. It's not as though Alain and the other rebel mages and rebel templars don't think that Meredith needs to be deposed as the dictator of Kirkwall.

[LobselVith8]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Why should Leliana survive if The Warden killed her? After what Leliana said in "Faith," I would have had my protagonist kill her.

Why should the Warden kill her at all?

Because Leliana is trying to murder The Warden in cold blood.

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Perhaps the Warden just wants to teach her a lesson.

What about the people who had their respective Warden kill Leliana because they wanted to kill Leliana, since her character tried to murder the last bastion of hope that Ferelden has left?

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Perhaps the Warden wants her to live, but realize that the Urn is not the most important thing right now. Perhaps he just wants to wound her enough so she won't be trouble anymore.

As I said, the crux of the problem is that players in Origins were given no inclination that she was still alive or would still live.

Leliana shouldn't be alive if The Warden killed her, that's the problem. It would be no different than Grand Cleric Elthina being alive after Anders' destroyed the Kirkwall Chantry.

[TEWR]

Despite evidence pointing to the dictator who has ruled Kirkwall for three years.

To be fair both the Resolutionists and Meredith are the problem. Resolutionists supposedly are working with Tevinter, and Meredith is indeed a problem.

[LobselVith8]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Despite evidence pointing to the dictator who has ruled Kirkwall for three years.

To be fair both the Resolutionists and Meredith are the problem. Resolutionists supposedly are working with Tevinter, and Meredith is indeed a problem.

Because Sister Nightingale says so, the same person who doesn't seem to realize that mages, templars, nobles, and civilians can have a serious issue with the dictator who has prevented the election of a new Viscount for three years? The dictator who has death squads murdering civilians? With her templars raping, torturing, and attempting to murder people in Kirkwall? Leliana word means **** to me.

[TEWR]

What about the people who had their respective Warden kill Leliana because they wanted to kill Leliana, since her character tried to murder the last bastion of hope that Ferelden has left?

Leliana shouldn't be alive if The Warden killed her, that's the problem. It would be no different than Grand Cleric Elthina being alive after Anders' destroyed the Kirkwall Chantry.

I don't think you understand what I'm trying to say here. Yes Bioware gave us the option to kill Leliana. But the problem is that if they wanted Leliana to be important, they should've given the player a codex or cutscene to say that maybe she wouldn't die. That maybe the Warden didn't kill her. That maybe the Warden left her for dead (because generally, when someone's bleeding their guts out they can barely move and will die fairly quickly)

DAO didn't give us any hints, and that's the problem. If Bioware wants a character to be important in the future, they need to give hints that they may still be alive.

That's the crux of the problem. Bioware wanted Leliana to be important, but they led the player to believe she wouldn't appear anymore if they killed her. They failed to give any hints that she wasn't dead, or may appear later due to the very nature of the area around her.

Though I could swear it was stated somewhere in one of the games that the soul doesn't immediately leave a Thedosian's body upon death.

[TEWR]

LobselVith8 wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Despite evidence pointing to the dictator who has ruled Kirkwall for three years.

To be fair both the Resolutionists and Meredith are the problem. Resolutionists supposedly are working with Tevinter, and Meredith is indeed a problem.

Because Sister Nightingale says so, the same person who doesn't seem to realize that mages, templars, nobles, and civilians can have a serious issue with the dictator who has prevented the election of a new Viscount for three years? The dictator who has death squads murdering civilians? With her templars raping, torturing, and attempting to murder people in Kirkwall? Leliana word means **** to me.

Actually because Fenris says they're working with the Imperium.

I'm not denying Meredith's a major problem for Kirkwall. But so are the Resolutionists in all their Imperium 2.0 wanting ways. That's bad for all of the mages who just want to say and prove they won't create another Imperium.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 20 septembre 2011 - 09:05 .

[LobselVith8]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

I don't think you understand what I'm trying to say here. Yes Bioware gave us the option to kill Leliana. But the problem is that if they wanted Leliana to be important, they should've given the player a codex or cutscene to say that maybe she wouldn't die. That maybe the Warden didn't kill her. That maybe the Warden left her for dead (because generally, when someone's bleeding their guts out they can barely move and will die fairly quickly)

It clearly wasn't planned ahead. If it was, we wouldn't have had the opportunity to kill Leliana - which explains Hawke standing idly by with Sister Petrice, Grace, possessed Larius, Knight-Captain Cullen, and the other antagonists who are "plot protected."

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Because Sister Nightingale says so, the same person who doesn't seem to realize that mages, templars, nobles, and civilians can have a serious issue with the dictator who has prevented the election of a new Viscount for three years? The dictator who has death squads murdering civilians? With her templars raping, torturing, and attempting to murder people in Kirkwall? Leliana word means **** to me.

Actually because Fenris says they're working with the Imperium.

I'm not denying Meredith's a major problem for Kirkwall. But so are the Resolutionists in all their Imperium 2.0 wanting ways. That's bad for all of the mages who just want to say and prove they won't create another Imperium.

Fenris isn't exactly neutral when it comes to magic, mages, or even Tevinter. Fenris even blames Hawke if he betrays him in the Fade.

There's no evidence the Resolutionsts are responsible for anything, and I don't trust Leliana. Her comments made her seem incompetent because it goes against everything that the narrative shows us.

[Wulfram]

DA:O pretty clearly gave little consideration to future sequels. Personally, I prefer that, and the consequent retcons, to DA2's approach.

Leliana herself says that there's no proof of the Resolutionists working with Tevinter.

I don't think it's a particularly crazy suggestion on her part that Anders isn't the whole of the Mage rebellion in Kirkwall.
And we have no idea what her view of Meredith's role in things is.

[TEWR]

It clearly wasn't planned ahead. If it was, we wouldn't have had the opportunity to kill Leliana - which explains Hawke standing idly by with Sister Petrice, Grace, possessed Larius, Knight-Captain Cullen, and the other antagonists who are "plot protected."

Precisely. If it was planned ahead, they would've given the player the chance to fight her but also would've shown that she was still alive or could appear later on in either a cutscene or a codex entry. They did it for Flemeth, and they should've done it for Leliana.

There's plenty to explain how she's back, but there isn't anything in Origins to say that she wasn't killed. And that's the problem.

The Warden doesn't have to kill Leliana for her to be out of his hair and not bugging him. Even if she did magically get healed, by the time she would leave the Temple the Warden would be so far gone that tracking him would be nigh impossible.

Fenris isn't exactly neutral when it comes to magic, mages, or even Tevinter. Fenris even blames Hawke if he betrays him in the Fade.

There's no evidence the Resolutionsts are responsible for anything, and I don't trust Leliana. Her comments made her seem incompetent because it goes against everything that the narrative shows us.

Nor is Anders exactly neutral when it comes to the Chantry and Templars. That a person is biased doesn't mean that everything they say is a lie.

Like I said, they are supposedly working with the Imperium. And if they actually are, there's no denying that's a problem. Tarohne wanted a return to the Imperium. There's no denying that a return to Mages ruling over people and killing people for spells is a problem.

Off topic: I think Tarohne's books and the Fell Grimoire should've been in Act 1 before the quest with Keran so that Tarohne's insanity made more sense, because she was at one point sane but then wanted the Imperium to return. I think Xebenkeck was controlling her.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 20 septembre 2011 - 09:22 .

[TJPags]

Oh look . . . .another mages v chantry thread.

Come on, seriously. Bad enough we went from Anders to Leliana, do we have to go back to mages and the chantry again? Really?

As to Anders - I've petty much decided that they used him because - well, they liked him, and they knew fans liked him. DG or one of the devs said something like that about Isabela - they figured there was more they could do with the character, so they put her in DA2, even though really, any old pirate wench - or plain old thief - could have worked.

DA2 Anders is kind of like DAA Ohgren. A character people liked, used solely for that reason, without regard to the character himself.

[TEWR]

I actually wasn't making it a Mages vs. Chantry thread.

[TJPags]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

I actually wasn't making it a Mages vs. Chantry thread.

No, I don't think you were.  It was fast heading that way, it seemed.

[megski]

I must have missed something when I did the Faith quest, but I got the impression that Leliana was investigating a particular fraternity and had come to the conclusion that everything in Kirkwall needed to be cleaned up.

[TEWR]

TJPags wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

I actually wasn't making it a Mages vs. Chantry thread.

No, I don't think you were.  It was fast heading that way, it seemed.

It's like the Loghain Complex. You know, where given time every thread devolves into discussing Loghain.

[TEWR]

megski wrote...

I must have missed something when I did the Faith quest, but I got the impression that Leliana was investigating a particular fraternity and had come to the conclusion that everything in Kirkwall needed to be cleaned up.

The Resolutionists, yes. They're an offshoot of the Libertarians who supposedly have support from the Imperium.

Though an Exalted March is drastic. Remove Meredith and the Resolutionists and Kirkwall would be a far better place.

[Sons of Horus]

So About Loghain ...... He he he.

Do you think Anders had huge ties to the Revolutionists via the mage underground ? Or that they may have pushed him to change his target (i.e. if he had original planed for Meredith, but was convinced to changed to Elthina ) ? possible reasons could have been unexpected target, easy access, try to kill all 3 leaders in the chantry itself. I wonder if what I’m speculating is true, would Anders sacrifice Hawk for his cause ?

Modifié par Sons of Horus, 21 septembre 2011 - 01:40 .