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[Baldecaran]

Greetings. I have recently completed the final chapter of my "Prophet series" and some of you have begun to play through. (The module can be found here: nwvault.ign.com/View.php)

This Forum thread is intended as a place for people to post their thoughts after finishing. I created it because, well... frankly because I'm very curious about what ending players will choose! So if you've finished the series, please post a short note about what you chose at the end, and why. Humor your builder!

Thanks.
-Baldecaran

Modifié par Baldecaran, 30 septembre 2011 - 12:02 .

[Snowdog65]

I chose to not save the world, and instead let it end, along  with the influence of fate from history.  But it was a close call.

I did it because then the plan would not have been for nothing, the century of sorrow, would not have been for nothing. That and I was chaffing under Fates yoke.

Finally because I looked on the end of fates influence as the great uknown. Even if this world was ended, perhaps it would be reborn again, this time still with free will. Perhaps Lor would step in again.  With fate out of the picture, there are more possibilities. Restoring the balance would just return from the horrors of the Century of Sorrow back under Fates control.

Anyway, this was an absolutely incredible mind blowing  module. My high expectations were exceeded. This is IMO the best NWN module of all time.

BTW did you come up with those guardian statues that attack when your back is turned, or did someone else? They were just like a episode of Dr Who.

Now I need some sleep after playing all weekend...

[jmlzemaggo]

     

               (From Prophet III)

You already know of my choice, so I won't say more about it, and let everyone makes his/her/its (this is were I hate english!) very own decision. And his/her/its very own choice...
What surprised me the most is you said your own author's choice would have been the other one. 
When every single word you wrote was leading me towards mine. Not yours. 
Funny, isn't it? 
Who wrote the piece? You... or the Prophet...

Now, I wouldn't limit that beautiful 'Prophet' serie, beautiful is enough, as I know nothing more beautiful than beauty, so, I wouldn't limit that beautiful 'Prophet' serie to his/her/its "final choice" only. As I truly believe the path you wrote for us towards that choice is more important than the choice itself. I still remember every moment of it, every encounter. 
And Prophet has been part of my signature here for a long time, long before that last part III even... Like if everything was already written from the Prologue. 
And I do intend to keep it that way, close to my NWN name.
Maybe I will replay that latest version some day, but I'm kind of scared right now.
You know, it's just like it's kind of scary to bump into someone you fall in love with already before...
And fall for her/him/it again...

Thanks for that gift of yours, Paul the gifted. I'm glad you finished that serie. For you, and also for us.
As it could be frightning to reach your goal... or the graal. 
You're already a man of your words, and those are beautiful. Probably since they are a bit of ours. 
Not only the words. 

Okay, I shut up... 
Love!
jm

**
**
**
Spoiler... kind of...:
I played a paladin here. Don't ask me why, I never do. 
Maybe because the 'Prophet' told me to.
She/He/It was right. 
Damn right... 

Modifié par jmlzemaggo, 19 septembre 2011 - 03:48 .

[Baldecaran]

Thanks for your comments, and great pic JM!

I'm not sure anymore what choice I would have made. It's different from the perspective of a builder. If I played through not knowing what is going on, my mind probably would have changed several times. I think I would first plan to defy fate because, as snowdog says, I would want to get out from under her yoke. But my anger at the Herezars would offset that a bit - after all, it is they who used me. And the price they were willing to pay, sacrificing the lives of those whom they would never see... I'm not sure I'd want to be a pawn in their plan. But probably at the end, after hearing Kurathan's conjecture about the multiple worlds scenario, maybe then I'd be tempted to do as you both did and let the world end.

The main thing I wanted is for the choice to be difficult. So I'm glad it was a close call! But my guess is that, at least for this version 1.0, most people will defy fate. I think we're just wired for free will.

Regarding the statues, they are indeed inspired by that Dr. Who episode, although I myself had never seen it. A friend was telling me about it and I thought it was just such a cool idea that I wanted to put something like that into NWN. Originally they were meant to vanish when looked at but then I thought freezing stoically was somehow even more creepy.

Thank you both for sharing your thoughts. Finishing this indeed meant a lot so I'm glad you enjoyed it and got out of it what I meant to put in. And you're right JM that the path is the important part, and yes, parts of it did write themselves outside of my control.

[Eleinehmm]

Absolutely great work!  I did expect it to end like this, but again this is logical (I did try both, just to get the Meta Free Choice feeling out of this, if it makes any kind of sense to call it so) ,  and I am yet to find such a good story paired with such a great execution. I think I owe you a beer;)

Modifié par Eleinehmm, 19 septembre 2011 - 03:30 .

[jmlzemaggo]

Hey, weren't you not supposed to reveal my choice?
That (clickable) image is entirely yours. I only pressed some buttons.
Talking about my choice, it was made very early in your game, and didn't change, only to get stronger along the path. 
Also because of Llarien, my favorite companion ever. I never met anyone like him in NWN.
He will be missed. 

Modifié par jmlzemaggo, 19 septembre 2011 - 05:29 .

[ishlia]

Totally agree with jmlzemaggo, the Prophet series is a beauty...
I can't help but chose free will for the second time, probable out of arrogance. After a long struggle this is the first time you can choose the unknown, for the first time you don't know what will come out. Kurathan's words was quite tempting, too, there will be infinity of possibilities, which is a predetermined world lacks. But it's indeed a choice of unspeakable cruelty with too heavy a price... Higher the price, higher the reward.

[galelabriel]

The final chapter of the Prophet series was released? YAY! Its time to install NWN once again. I wiped everything off the computer awhile ago vowing only to return when your series and Fester's series were completed, then I'm done for good. I'll be starting from the beginning. Want to experience it all over again...

Thank you for this, Baldecaran. Cant wait to get started!

[Snowdog65]

I didn't blame the Herezars. Were they not, still just Fates pawns as well? I deem the Century of Sorrow as Fates game. Her attempt to show that in the end, her way would be chosen. It was difficult more because I didn't want to lie to or disappoint Llarien at the moment of his sacrifice, so I promised him to restore the balance.

[Eleinehmm]

Hm, but if you choose the Free Will there were no Fate, and the Herezars were mistaken. Everything that was, was the product of their own free choices  So they just died for nothing
The only time we can speak of Fate is only if we choose Fate. If we choose Fate, however, there has always been Fate, and Herezars are just as they are. The Fate ending really deconstruct the idea of time, as everything exists as whole, in static, not in dynamics

Modifié par Eleinehmm, 19 septembre 2011 - 05:28 .

[ishlia]

more likely they didn't have to die :>

[Snowdog65]

Eleinehmm wrote...
Hm, but if you choose the Free Will there were no Fate, and the Herezars were mistaken. Everything that was, was the product of their own free choices  So they just died for nothing

Nah. As the unmaker, the one who chose to undo Fate, I did not personally experience the re-shuffling of history.  I did not experience the reality where my future self told the truth, where I did not get Lors Sceptre and I did not smash the penteract, starting the Century of Sorry.

I lived the Fate controlled reality where my future self lied to me and all those things did happen.

[Baldecaran]

One way to look at it is that if you chose free will, then fate never existed, so the whole plan of the Herezars was indeed completely unnecessary. In fact, you could say that their plan was not to change the world, but just to find out, once and for all, whether fate exists. And then the answer is she doesn't, and never did... but to find that answer, they caused the entire world to be destroyed. Indeed a pretty high price to pay!

So if you chose free will, then the Herezars must take responsibility for their choices and all the repercussions, including the century of sorrow, manipulating you to be their pawn, and the end of days. By getting their way, they must also get the blame.

And if you choose fate, then it wasn't a choice at all. It was predetermined like everything else. That's actually the easier scenario to make logical sense of, albeit a difficult one to accept.

[Eleinehmm]

Snowdog65 wrote...

Nah. As the unmaker, the one who chose to undo Fate, I did not personally experience the re-shuffling of history.  I did not experience the reality where my future self told the truth, where I did not get Lors Sceptre and I did not smash the penteract, starting the Century of Sorry.

I lived the Fate controlled reality where my future self lied to me and all those things did happen.

You lived in a Free Will reality where you had chosen to belive your evil twin from some other World .

Edit: The author has explained it better than me.

Modifié par Eleinehmm, 19 septembre 2011 - 08:22 .

[Baldecaran]

Snowdog65 wrote...

I lived the Fate controlled reality where my future self lied to me and all those things did happen.

Good point.

But *was* it a fate-controlled reality? After all, your prophecy about what you would say to yourself did not come true. So at least that prophecy was false; at least those events were not set in stone. As to why the other prophecies came true - that's hard to explain. One possible idea is that they came true because prophets actually manipulate the future. So your visions of the Century of Sorrow (and those of Uther Palandras and others who talked of it) actually made it happen, partially by influencing the actions of those who hear them. Of course, the prophecies are never detailed - you never have a vision of, say, yourself tying your shoes five minutes before it happens (something a playtester called the "shoelace paradox"). Anyway, if some prophecies are false and time is not set in stone, then there is no fate, and so again the Herezars get the blame.

BTW - Just because I made the mod doesn't mean I have the answers. Maybe someone here can suggest a better interpretation of how to make sense of the free will scenario.

[Eleinehmm]

Baldecaran wrote...

BTW - Just because I made the mod doesn't mean I have the answers. Maybe someone here can suggest a better interpretation of how to make sense of the free will scenario.

True, but I did find that particular part of the Ending especially great .

[Snowdog65]

Baldecaran wrote...
But *was* it a fate-controlled reality? After all, your prophecy about what you would say to yourself did not come true. So at least that prophecy was false; at least those events were not set in stone. As to why the other prophecies came true - that's hard to explain.

Given what my character experienced there seemed to be no real disagreement from anyone that Fate existed and was pulling strings. The Herezars found the pattern in history, the old scholarly Elf examining their records didn't disagree. My character has seen visions of Fate where she told him how he was tricked into destroying the Penteract.

Paradox issues are nearly unavoidable when you have some kind of time travel issues. I prefer the resolution of alternate timeline. I experienced the balanced(Fate influenced) universe up until the point that I broke the chain.

The only real paradox I have a problem is the creation of the Scepter of Lor in a dream made real...

Baldecaran wrote...
The main thing I wanted is for the choice to be difficult. So I'm glad it was a close call! But my guess is that, at least for this version 1.0, most people will defy fate. I think we're just wired for free will.

But do we (IRL) actually have free will?

I am not talking about destiny or anything manipulating us. I am talking about the likelihood, given that we are essentially very complex biological machines, it should be possible to predict our actions (with sufficient knowledge/technology/capability). If your actions are all predictable, do you have free will? Perhaps Fate in "Prophet" operates in this manner.

Imagine one last vision/dream as you prepare to tell the "truth" to your past self...

Lor motions: You will shepard this world to prevent disaster, your tools are prediction, and dream sendings. Sufficient to sway but not directly control events. Fate begins reading future predictions using the energies of the Pentaract... fade out.

Would that again sway the Unmakers choice? The implications are huge.

The Herezars now appear only partially correct. They saw the hands of Fate in the patterns of history, but it isn't total control, but subtle nudging through prophetic dream sending. It doesn't undermine most individual achievements as it is merely small nudges only indirectly having an effect on circumstances.

The Herezars have grown so much that they develop their own ability to predict, and it is increasingly disrupting the prediction machinery of Fate. A singularity emerges in the predictions of both, from the interference and neither can see beyond what they are calling the end times. But was this Lors intent??

Modifié par Snowdog65, 19 septembre 2011 - 11:04 .

[jmlzemaggo]

Baldecaran wrote...
Just because I made the mod doesn't mean I have the answers.

Music to my ears... 

[Baldecaran]

Snowdog65 wrote...

Given what my character experienced there seemed to be no real disagreement from anyone that Fate existed and was pulling strings. The Herezars found the pattern in history, the old scholarly Elf examining their records didn't disagree. My character has seen visions of Fate where she told him how he was tricked into destroying the Penteract.

Paradox issues are nearly unavoidable when you have some kind of time travel issues. I prefer the resolution of alternate timeline. I experienced the balanced(Fate influenced) universe up until the point that I broke the chain.

Interesting interpretation... Indeed all the events up to the point of your choice were consistent with a fate-controlled universe. So that's a logical explanation, but it requires that you conclude that the person who told you to smash the penteract was from another universe. So she lied, restoring the balance and saving her world, while you told the truth, condemning your world to destruction. To say that's unfair would be an understatement!

Snowdog65 wrote...

Imagine one last vision/dream as you prepare to tell the "truth" to your past self...

Lor motions: You will shepard this world to prevent disaster, your tools are prediction, and dream sendings. Sufficient to sway but not directly control events. Fate begins reading future predictions using the energies of the Pentaract... fade out.

Would that again sway the Unmakers choice? The implications are huge.

The Herezars now appear only partially correct. They saw the hands of Fate in the patterns of history, but it isn't total control, but subtle nudging through prophetic dream sending. It doesn't undermine most individual achievements as it is merely small nudges only indirectly having an effect on circumstances.

The Herezars have grown so much that they develop their own ability to predict, and it is increasingly disrupting the prediction machinery of Fate. A singularity emerges in the predictions of both, from the interference and neither can see beyond what they are calling the end times. But was this Lors intent??

I'm not sure I understand your suggestion about Lor's final statement. Are you saying he suggests you save the world because fate does not control all?

It is indeed possible to say that fate has partial control, that the scaffolding of time is pre-set but the individual details left up for mortals to determine themselves. That would explain why the visions are always so vague - to leave room for the details. The Herezars, however, learned to go beyond that and change the future through their visions, making even very dramatic changes. And this let to that singularity - a moment beyond which no prophet can see. That is the "curtain" of which Uther spoke, assuming it meant the end of days. Possible...

The issue of the curtain is also relevant to the scenario in which you choose to obey fate. Suppose you did so, and tricked your past self, and thus proved that fate rules the world. But if she does, then what *about* that "curtain"? If you obey fate, then the world continues to exist. Cities are rebuilt, civilizations reformed, etc. So why did no prophets ever see beyond the moment of your choice?

One explanation is this: That even though fate does rule the world, your choice *was* actually free, separating the past from the future and that's why no prophet can see beyond it. Perhaps it was the only free choice, but at least it proves that not all is set in stone.

The other explanation is colder: That the curtain is a myth. It's just a coincidence that prophets like Uther or the Weavers of Hierathanum never saw past it. Perhaps there was some prophet who did, but his words just never made it into the history books. And so, the idea of the curtain became legend. Scholars came to interpret it as the end of days, and the Herezars saw it as their crack-in-the-stone. But it was really nothing more than an artifact of limited knowledge.

Modifié par Baldecaran, 20 septembre 2011 - 11:07 .

[Snowdog65]

Baldecaran wrote...
Interesting interpretation... Indeed all the events up to the point of your choice were consistent with a fate-controlled universe. So that's a logical explanation, but it requires that you conclude that the person who told you to smash the penteract was from another universe. So she lied, restoring the balance and saving her world, while you told the truth, condemning your world to destruction. To say that's unfair would be an understatement!

I wasn't speculating so much on the outcomes, just pointing out that everything the character experiences is consistent with a Universe with Fates influence.  Not one that was free of this influence.  So even if Fates influence was removed throughout history from my choice, I haven't experienced it. That would seem to be an alternate reality.

The resolution of things like the classic Grandfather paradox, generally only resolves in one of two ways:

1: It can't happen, it gets prevented. (Yet another reason for the character to try it ).
2: Alternate reality (timeline/dimension).

Since apprarently it did happen. I was lied to by myself, given the Scepter of Lor, but  I told the truth and did not pass the Scepter of Lor, then we are really left with #2, Alternate reality.

About the unfairness, no one knows they are speaking across alternate universes. Alternate universes are essentially just a contstruct to resolve paradoxes.

I'm not sure I understand your suggestion about Lor's final statement. Are you saying he suggests you save the world because fate does not control all?

The other explanation is colder: That the curtain is a myth. It's just a coincidence that prophets like Uther or the Weavers of Hierathanum never saw past it. Perhaps there was some prophet who did, but his words just never made it into the history books. And so, the idea of the curtain became legend. Scholars came to interpret it as the end of days, and the Herezars saw it as their crack-in-the-stone. But it was really nothing more than an artifact of limited knowledge.

There is lots of room for speculation with the Fate/Free theme.

I was just thinking about one final twist. I think most people are going to choose free will.  But a final plea/vision from Fate about what she actually does, might just change the characters mind again.   You get the big line up at the end pleading their case, but not Fate.

On the mechanism. I like prediction with dream manipulation. That actually doesn't even require any temporal shennanigans (though the dream with Sceptre of Lor does).  With the ability to predict  actions and manipulate dreams you could shape history.   But this only works if the ability is isolated.  When the Herezars develop similar abilities, then the interactions change predictions, and then get acted on and changed back and forth. Essentially it would make prediction/control increasingly erratic.

As far as Lors involvment. Presumable as the creator, he assigned Fate her task. The question at the end was did he intend for her abilities to eventually be challenged and create the choice??

Anyway, fun stuff.

[Baldecaran]

Snowdog65 wrote...

As far as Lors involvment. Presumable as the creator, he assigned Fate her task. The question at the end was did he intend for her abilities to eventually be challenged and create the choice??

Anyway, fun stuff.

My thoughts on Lor's intentions are deliberately vague. That leaves more room for mystery and for others to suggest interpretations.

One way to look at it, if you choose to obey fate, is that Lor had no choice but to create fate. That is because his act of creation required everything to be balanced, and fate is the essence of the balance between the past and the future. So to create time, he had to chain it all together.

But if you choose free will, then it could imply that Lor intended for her to eventually be defeated. In the final cutscene Lor implies that your choice created free will, the one thing that he could not create himself. That is because he is the embodiment of will, and *could not create himself*. However, since he does not obey the normal flow of time, he could be created at the end of time and then create time as well everything in it. But suppose that creation is not instantaneous even from his "outside of time" perspective. It is like a sculpture: you begin with the basic shape and then work down into the details. So the overall shape of time is set out "first", with large events like the Century of Sorrow hewn out of the stone, and smaller details (like who poisons the wellspring) chiseled out "later". Perhaps the details on an individual scale (like your tactics in a given encounter) are left for the mortals to shape themselves. This would explain why dreams are so vague - even the most gifted seers can only see the larger shapes of history (though Uther did seem to know which staircase you'd choose in his tomb...). So maybe from this perspective, Fate exists only insofar as the basic shape of time, but with each finer stroke of his hammer Lor is cutting her away. Maybe she is like a scaffold - necessary to begin the sculpture but then eventually discarded.

I know, this all does not truly hold together logically... But maybe it's better that way.

[ishlia]

A simple tribute. :innocent:

[Zireael]

I had to obey Fate. I did it for the sake of uncounted unborn, for the sake of future. I thought, what would those thousands men and women with free will say to me, when thanks to me there will be no future for their distant children... Yes, their actions was really theirs, but for what? Who will be looking back to them, who will stand speechless over great halls and libraries, when there will be no one to inherit their legacy? This is what the Herezars planned. They didn't want the future, they just wanted themselves and those before them to be free, ignorant to those, who was meant to come after them. Isn't it a bit selfish and cruel?
(As a player I put aside alternative universes, because it is this world I had in my hands, and it is its tale the Storyteller shows me. If there are really alternative universes, then they have different tales and different storytellers, even different listeners. Well, I believe we, as players, are those listeners, each one has his own universe and reasons for what to choose.)

And I thought about those poor creators and immortal rulers. If Fate can be defeated, no, better word is annihilated, what about the Gods? They can be also considered chains to mortals, in their own way. If human can deny fate, then he can deny gods, and be god himself... Well, I think even good gods would have something really rude to say about that...

I must thank you, Baldecaran, it was great and deep story. I enjoyed the scenery, beautifully crafted world with unique, strong atmosphere. I will remember this for a long time, and once memory will start to fade, I will play it again.

Modifié par Zireael, 26 septembre 2011 - 01:38 .

[jmlzemaggo]

Beautiful drawing, finest words I read around a module...

[Snowdog65]

Finally up on the Vault officially:
http://nwvault.ign.c....Detail&id=6301

Modifié par Snowdog65, 28 septembre 2011 - 08:03 .