89 réponses à ce sujet

[jmlzemaggo]

Yes!

[Baldecaran]

ishlia wrote...
A simple tribute. [smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/angel.png[/smilie]

A beautiful tribute! Thank you!!! You have a great style. Is that you holding the world in your hands? Or is it fate?
Others reading this might want to check out ishlia/lisha_sun's picture of Suthaire from "The Cave of Songs" (nwvault.ign.com/fms/Image.php).

Zireael wrote...

I had to obey Fate. I did it for the sake of uncounted unborn, for the sake of future. I thought, what would those thousands men and women with free will say to me, when thanks to me there will be no future for their distant children... Yes, their actions was really theirs, but for what? Who will be looking back to them, who will stand speechless over great halls and libraries, when there will be no one to inherit their legacy?

Spoken with true wisdom and compassion... Indeed the Herezars were selfish and cruel. And they were cowards, setting their plan to take place so far in their future that the suffering they caused was just an abstraction to them. They would never hear the cries of the dying and confront the true implications of their actions.

I'm glad that someone spoke up for the unborn, and spoke so well. Thanks! And I'm glad that you plan to play it again. I will continue to make updates to all of the modules in the series. So hopefully by the time you return there will be more to see.

Snowdog: Thanks for all of your help here and on the website. These last days have been hectic in RL so I couldn't check the page. It's good to have allies!

Modifié par Baldecaran, 30 septembre 2011 - 12:21 .

[Snowdog65]

You're welcome. It was the least I could do, after all the entertainment you have given us.

[Saltius]

My choice is to let the dice roll. Thus I typed d2 in the console then and it returned 1 to me.

So the prophet chose telling the truth to the past self , the doom of the world and the free will accordingly.

It would be fair enough for both past born and future unborn if that dice was totally of randomness.

Else If the dice's result was pre-determined, then it was the fate herself who brought her own defeat.

[Baldecaran]

Saltius wrote...

My choice is to let the dice roll.

Now THAT I did not expect. Interesting solution!

But it's too bad that you didn't roll a 2... That would have left you with a most chilling question...

[Rafe34]

Silvius here.

I really don't know why I have so many different names. Maybe I'm typing this from an alternate universe or something.

Triss, (my character, started as CN, went to CG over the course of the series), chose to defy fate and tell the truth to her past self for a single reason.

Perhaps she lied to herself a bit too, and said she was doing this to rid the world of a tyrant, that it was better to die free than live a slave. Perhaps she said it was for the million years of history, that making all of their actions free was such a great gift it was worth any sacrifice. 

The reality is that she did not care one whit about people who were dead and gone, and would never walk the earth again. She did not truly care whether Fate was pulling their strings or not- she never knew them, and the vast majority never knew that they were merely puppets. As Uther Palandras said, a chain unfelt does not fetter the heart.

The reality of it is that all of those great reasons for doing what she did, paled in comparison to this: she simply could not bear the thought that all that Llarien did was completely pre-ordained to happen, and that he was not responsible for any of his actions: from helping her when Merudoc turned on her, to following her even to the penteract itself, to saving her from Isandra even though he may have lost hope. All of that would be worthless, in her eyes, if it was simply Fate pulling the strings of a puppet. She had fallen in love with him, and could not bear the thought that her feelings were simply yet another piece of someone else's painting, and that if he returned those feelings, his too would simply be a puppet doing what the grand puppeteer told him to do. If she did not defy fate, then all of his actions were not truly his, but simply someone else pulling his strings.

And Llarien was already dead, having made the ultimate sacrifice to give her the ultimate choice. Let her die then as well, and in the process make their deaths *worth* something.

So she condemned the world for one man. Does that make her a monster or a hero? I'm not really sure myself.

And dear gods, I do NOT want to play this module with a paladin. How the hell would a *lawful good* paladin make a choice at the end? Seems like a LN vs CG/CN choice at the end. My best guess would be something like he tells his past self the truth and begs for their help. (And gets turned down, I think.)

Simply fantastic, Baldecaran. Absolutely great ending to one of, if not the best module series on the vault. 

Modifié par Rafe34, 13 octobre 2011 - 11:38 .

[Maldrach]

My character was a paladin. And honestly, it was hell to play through the serie with him.

I generally play paly as intelligent beings who think before they act, and try to work for the greater good, even if it means letting some evils to happen, or make a truce with enemies.

And so, all the serie was a great struggle between what my paly thought he has to do and what he standed for. He tried so much to avert the century of sorrow, just to realize that he started it, that he had been betrayed by his future self... He almost went mad, and vow he would not deceive himself.

And so, at the end of days, he was confronted with the final choice.
And he thought alot, to finally tell the truth to his former self. The reasons were quite simple in the end:
He had vowed not to deceive himself.
He offers his former self a redemption before he got damned, and thus he achieve part of a redemption for him.
And last but not least, he considered that if fate rules the world, then his life as a paladin, everything he believes in, and everything he had been fighting for or against, were just a great mascarade which means nothing at all. Given free will, all his life would take a sense, and the life of others too. Given fate, then the most evil people were just as he, a paladin. and this my character could not allow, even if to change it, he would damned himself.

So he choose to say the truth, destroy his world, and then he wept watching the end of days.


Oh by the way, I am truly happy to have played this serie with a paladin, for given the story, the choices we have to do and the consequences of our acts, the paladin offers dilemna that are very hard to resolve.
I honestly think that this mod is made for paladins, if you play them like I do.


Thank you baldecaran, for it was amazing. The best module I ever played; which will propbaly never be equalled.

Modifié par Maldrach, 14 octobre 2011 - 03:27 .

[jmlzemaggo]

Maldrach wrote...

My character was a paladin. And honestly, it was hell to play through the serie with him.
... 
I honestly think that this mod is made for paladins, if you play them like I do.
...

Just what Maldrach said.
If you want dilemma and role playing, paladin is the most tortuous and devastating way to play "Prophet". 
What could be better than hell itself for a true paladin... 
Lawful, but lawful to what?
Lawful, when there are no more laws? Not even a world? 

If anyone's got another class in mind, I would be really interested. 

Modifié par jmlzemaggo, 14 octobre 2011 - 05:41 .

[Rafe34]

Triss was a Barb/Bard/RDD, which hit level 10 in RDD right before the plane of fire, and made that place a hell of a lot easier to play, lol.

Blackguard might be just as interesting as Paladin. I don't think either choice is intrinsically a good or evil choice, it is the motivations of the character that makes it a good or evil choice.

Triss's final choice was, if not evil, then at least selfish.
Maldrach's final choice was clearly good.

Yet they chose the same ending.

That's why I love this module so much.

Harper Scout played correctly would be very interesting, as would a Monk of essentially any alignment. 

Also if anyone is looking for another module series to play and has not played the Rose of Eternity, they should give it a try. It's the only module series on the vault that is in the same class as Prophet.

Modifié par Rafe34, 15 octobre 2011 - 12:43 .

[Rafe34]

Saltius wrote...

My choice is to let the dice roll. Thus I typed d2 in the console then and it returned 1 to me.

So the prophet chose telling the truth to the past self , the doom of the world and the free will accordingly.

It would be fair enough for both past born and future unborn if that dice was totally of randomness.

Else If the dice's result was pre-determined, then it was the fate herself who brought her own defeat.

I like this way.

If fate truly pre-determines what is going to happen, then she would make the dice roll accordingly. If she does not, then...

[Baldecaran]

Rafe34 wrote...

Triss, (my character, started as CN, went to CG over the course of the series), chose to defy fate and tell the
truth to her past self for a single reason.

...she simply could not bear the thought that all that Llarien did was completely pre-ordained to happen, and that he was not responsible for any of his actions: from helping her when Merudoc turned on her, to following her even to the penteract itself, to saving her from Isandra even though he may have lost hope. All of that would be worthless, in her eyes, if it was simply Fate pulling the strings of a puppet. She had fallen in love with him, and could not bear the thought that her feelings were simply yet another piece of someone else's painting, and that if he returned those feelings, his too would simply be a puppet doing what the grand puppeteer told him to do. If she did not defy fate, then all of his actions were not truly his, but simply someone else pulling his strings.

And Llarien was already dead, having made the ultimate sacrifice to give her the ultimate choice. Let her die then as well, and in the process make their deaths *worth* something.

So she condemned the world for one man. Does that make her a monster or a hero? I'm not really sure myself.

Now that is poetic! A whole world destroyed for the sake of love. But then, if even a world must someday die, what better cause could it die for? It is like that saying, that whoever saves a life saves the world, except here the causality is inverted in time. It is like deciding, in the name of all who have lived, that our emotions are what our lives are for, and that making them real is more important than anything else.

It's a very poetic way to interpret the final choice. And yet, I can't help feeling that there is something terribly sad about it. Was Triss really thinking this way, as the champion of a world of emotions, or was she just being selfish? Did she reject being a slave of fate and instead choose to be a slave of her own emotions?

Modifié par Baldecaran, 16 octobre 2011 - 10:49 .

[Baldecaran]

Maldrach wrote...

My character was a paladin. And honestly, it was hell to play through the serie with him.

...all the serie was a great struggle between what my paly thought he has to do and what he standed for. He tried so much to avert the century of sorrow, just to realize that he started it, that he had been betrayed by his future self... He almost went mad, and vow he would not deceive himself.

And so, at the end of days, he was confronted with the final choice.
And he thought alot, to finally tell the truth to his former self. The reasons were quite simple in the end:
He had vowed not to deceive himself.
He offers his former self a redemption before he got damned, and thus he achieve part of a redemption for him.
And last but not least, he considered that if fate rules the world, then his life as a paladin, everything he believes in, and everything he had been fighting for or against, were just a great mascarade which means nothing at all. Given free will, all his life would take a sense, and the life of others too. Given fate, then the most evil people were just as he, a paladin. and this my character could not allow, even if to change it, he would damned himself.

So he choose to say the truth, destroy his world, and then he wept watching the end of days.

Tragic... It seems as if he did it in response to the suffering he went through from watching his most honorable intentions ruined by the cruelty of fate. He did it to achieve redemption. But at what a price!! Was it not a terribly selfish act, betraying all life for one man's honor? And even if he did it to give meaning to history - would history without free will really have no meaning? Does a painting convey nothing because it is a painting, or can it tell a meaningful story anyway?

Of course, it's easy for me to raise these points, but much harder to make the choice myself. What would I have done in your place, playing an intelligent paladin with a deep conscience? Honestly: I have no idea! I suppose it's impossible to say unless I were to play through the series without knowing the ending. The tough thing about vows is that our knowledge is always limited, always ignorant from some larger perspective. And some new facts can make irrelevant the context of our vows, turning them from good to great evil. So what is one's duty to: law, and keeping a vow; or good, and saving the lives of millions?

Yes, I agree with you and jml that playing a paladin adds an extra challenge. What is one to remain lawful to?

Thank you for your very intriguing perspectives!

Modifié par Baldecaran, 16 octobre 2011 - 10:52 .

[jmlzemaggo]

Yeap. That makes 'Prophet' also the best roleplaying module I ever played.
I really thought I destroyed the Earth for a few seconds. I'm still not sure I didn't, 'seeing how it looks today.
Would I be responsible? Baldecaran, what have you done!
Who are you, really? Could this module be not a game but the most devilish detonator?

For ever in my brain, and NWN signature.

[Le Penombre]

I did play the whole series as a Paladin, and it was a thoroughly challenging and enlightening experience. Because, unless i’m sadly mistaken, a paladin is not someone driven by a single polarity in his existence, but TWO polarities instead : Law and Good.

When most people read Lawful Good, they see « Lawful » first. Try reading it the other way, Good Lawful, for instance 

What happens whenever a Lawful Good character is confronted with tyrannical laws, or absurd bureaucracy ? Does he submit to them and tells everyone « well, that's the law and i’m sworn to uphold it » ? Where is « Good » in this ?

When the law is bad, you change the law. If you don't even want to consider this possibility, then you're not Lawful Good. You're Lawful Neutral. Period. Lawful Neutral would only change laws to make them more efficient and foolproof. Lawful Good will take care that the laws are or become as just and fair as they can be. 

Striking against unfair laws is not Chaos, unless you want no laws at all. Striking against unfair laws to make them change, to strive for improvement,  is « good » because in this LG perspective, laws are made for people, and not just for themselves. Hence « Lawful Good » and not « Lawful Crybaby ».Sometimes it is necessary to sacrifice many, so that many more would gain in this. Not because of self-delusions about godhood or conscience, but because when you’re the Prophet, there is simply no-one else to make this choice, between offering a possibility of doing it better, or simply to perpetuate the same old lie.

Uther was right in trying to oppose Fate, in this regard, even if he was only playing his part according to what he was allowed to see. I feel sorry about the millions i saw die, some of them still hoping i would help them. Some of them dying in hope they could make a difference , although in fact, they too were doing what Fate expected of them. Uther, Merudoc, Llarien and the poor Evernorn, who certainly paid the worst price there was to pay (years of hope, loneliness and madness until his final betrayal... for nothing since until the very last - and only - choice i had to make, everything was set in stone). 

Yes, as a story that was beautifully done, because it was very saddening. Was it delusion to strive for a « greater good » while allowing all those hopes to be crushed before your eyes, by your own hand ? Was it really worth it to betray the hopes of scared children, the fears of a long lost friend and everything else ?

But the choice was far easier to make, by considering things from a different angle.

If i chose Fate, all the dead would remain dead. This world would heal, people would eventually forget or build legends about the Century of Sorrow, but those who had already died would remain dead, those who had survived would live the rest of their days with their suffering, their loss, their pain and their memories, just because it is so written.
Until they too died, and new generations would arise to play their own part, as slaves and pawns of Fate. Fate which has its own meaning, its own purpose, without consideration for anything else.

That is not « Law ». That is just a self-perpetuating tyranny, complete with false hopes, false dreams and
absolutely nothing else but puppets playing their own charades.

If you are Lawful Neutral, then, law is in itself an absolute and that is fine. But if you’re Lawful Good, law must have a purpose, or it must be changed to get one.

Do you really think that freewill means Chaos ? I don’t.

Because people can still make laws, organize society, strive to improve together. There is a possibility they will make it right. There is hope and, potentially, success. Without Fate, those laws, those societies made by mortals would be their own. Good or bad, people would be responsible for their actions. Responsible for their own failures, and their own successes.

Freewill  means uncertainty, but it can provides lots of good things, even good laws. You fail, or you succeed, because of what you do, even if you’re misguided, you do not just « play » your part, you really DO it.

Fate do not provide everything except her own self-sustaining eternal tyranny. There is no room for improvement, for « good », in this. Only the pursuit of illusion. Laws that are illusory because everything is already written are not worth anything, they do not allow people to be anything at all. Not good, not bad, not respectful, not rebellious. NOTHING.

Who could you congratulate, accuse, miss or hate if there is absolutely no choice ? What would be the purpose of feeling pain, sorrow, hope, love and all the rest if they do not really exist – not even for yourself- but are just predetermined special effects provided with the script of everyone’s fate ?

There is no virtue in doing the right thing if you’re  not really doing it, but just playing your part. Where is salvation, where is hope, where is the meaning of law (or the meaning of chaos as a matter of fact) if everything is set in stone and everyone is just playing his part in the script ? How do you feel sorry, hopeful, angered, happy or sad when you realize you do not feel at all, but are just playing your part ?

So, i chose to rebel. Not for myself, since as the Prophet, i was effectively the only one to really feel anything under Fate’s yoke. 

I did it because i realised that everyone else's suffering wasn't really suffering. Whatever they hoped, felt, said... was not their own. It was just what was written by Fate.

I felt sorry for all of them, because i knew that all the pain they endured... wasn't really pain. They felt it nonetheless as real, but it wasn't real, because they had no say, not even once, in their suffering. 

They were only doing what was written. I saw them die. In choosing to oppose Fate, i made them die, but in the end, i was the only one to really do, and feel, something true. 

This Law of Fate is not life. This is illusion and what can be worse than a law that decrees everyone is not real but just there for the show ? That not one thought, not one feeling, not one moment is anything but a special effect for the audience ? And what about this audience, as a matter of fact ? Yes... what about it...

As a paladin, i did rebel  because this was the only way to change the law, to give it a purpose, and
hopefully a good one. To break the Law of Fate and offer something new instead.

Freewill, also known as the Law of Consequences.

Modifié par Le Pénombre, 17 octobre 2011 - 01:08 .

[jmlzemaggo]

Just curious: why Le Pénombre?

[Le Penombre]

That's a kind of private joke, for someone who wanted to know if i was the Pénombre he thought (which is the case).

[Rafe34]

Baldecaran wrote...

Now that is poetic! A whole world destroyed for the sake of love. But then, if even a world must someday die, what better cause could it die for? It is like that saying, that whoever saves a life saves the world, except here the causality is inverted in time. It is like deciding, in the name of all who have lived, that our emotions are what our lives are for, and that making them real is more important than anything else.

It's a very poetic way to interpret the final choice. And yet, I can't help feeling that there is something terribly sad about it. Was Triss really thinking this way, as the champion of a world of emotions, or was she just being selfish? Did she reject being a slave of fate and instead choose to be a slave of her own emotions?

I definitely think selfishness played into it a bit. I said as much in a later post, and I certainly don't think she was a champion, or did something great and noble.

To answer your question more fully, however, I'm going to have to go back a bit.

At the end of chapter II, Triss lost all hope. Everything she had done to prevent it had merely caused the century of sorrow, Merudoc was dead, and Llarien had abandoned her.

She knew what would have to happen to bring Llarien back, and she told the Vigil to do it anyway, even knowing that he himself would rather stay dreaming than sacrifice another to come back, thinking she was going to get her friend back, that there was still hope- and then he refuses to come along.

When that happened, something broke inside. Her last friend thought there was no hope, and refused to accompany her any longer.  At the village where you are supposed to save the villagers, she simply charged in with a frontal assault. Possibly hoping the wizard would kill her. She didn't bother to raise anyone, and simply told them to go back to the city, and then left. 

When Isandra betrayed her, she didn't attempt to get out, even welcomed her death. 

And then Llarien shows up and rescues her, and she begins healing inside, just a bit. By the time they get to plane of death, she has convinced herself that they are going to do it, they are going to stop the world from ending, and then afterwards, maybe... 

When Llarien died, she fell apart. He left her there on the ground, still weeping. She stayed there for a long time before leaving that place. I think that maybe I neglected to think of something else that motivated her: revenge. After all, in her eyes, it was Fate who had caused the century of sorrow, Fate who had killed Merudoc and Norenshire and Llarien. I doubt she truly thought about the fact that if there was no fate, much of it would be on her own hands.

Given the choice, however, between letting Fate get away with it, (in her eyes), and taking Fate down by her own death, and the death of the world, there wasn't even a contest. She hardly listened to anyone's advice prior to making her choice.

She told her past self the whole truth, the whole story, (a little outside the lines of the dialogue here), and when the past Triss told her that she hoped she would have been able to make the same sacrifice- then she was at peace.

Perhaps she would get to see Llarien again, but even if not, their actions had been their own. They were not mere puppets, or simply a portrait painted by someone else. They were the artists. And to her, that was worth any sacrifice.

Modifié par Rafe34, 18 octobre 2011 - 12:43 .

[Rafe34]

Baldecaran wrote...

Tragic... It seems as if he did it in response to the suffering he went through from watching his most honorable intentions ruined by the cruelty of fate. He did it to achieve redemption. But at what a price!! Was it not a terribly selfish act, betraying all life for one man's honor? And even if he did it to give meaning to history - would history without free will really have no meaning? Does a painting convey nothing because it is a painting, or can it tell a meaningful story anyway?

History without free will would have meaning. It would not be near as meaningful as history with free will, however.

It's like this. Let us say that we have a beautiful painting, in our analogy, the painting is all of history. We ask a guide at the museum the meaning of the painting, and he tells us what they believe its meaning to be. We nod, agree or disagree, possibly form our own conclusions, etc.

Now, same scenario, we have a painting. Only this time, we ask the artist the meaning of the painting, not some museum guide, or expert that has, at best, a second-hand knowledge, if they even knew what the meaning was in the first place. Is the painting not far more meaningful to its observers after this second scenario than in the first?

In Prophet, your choice is to let this great portrait, all of history, be drawn by a single being, Fate.

Or- for each and every person who has ever lived to draw their own part of the picture, and to create the painting together.

Which portrait of history, would you say, has more meaning?

Modifié par Rafe34, 18 octobre 2011 - 12:43 .

[Baldecaran]

jmlzemaggo wrote...

Yeap. That makes 'Prophet' also the best roleplaying module I ever played.
I really thought I destroyed the Earth for a few seconds. I'm still not sure I didn't, 'seeing how it looks today.
Would I be responsible? Baldecaran, what have you done!
Who are you, really? Could this module be not a game but the most devilish detonator?

  That's right! You found me out. I've got my hand hovering over a big red "Destruct" button and am collecting votes to see whether people would like to see the universe destroyed. So far, according to the comments made here, it doesn't look good for the future...

[Baldecaran]

Le Pénombre wrote...

I did play the whole series as a Paladin, and it was a thoroughly challenging and enlightening
experience.

...

If i chose Fate, all the dead would remain dead. This world would heal, people would eventually forget or build legends about the Century of Sorrow, but those who had already died would remain dead, those who had survived would live the rest of their days with their suffering, their loss, their pain and their memories, just because it is so written. Until they too died, and new generations would arise to play their own part, as slaves and pawns of Fate. Fate which has its own meaning, its own purpose, without consideration for anything else.

That is not « Law ». That is just a self-perpetuating tyranny, complete with false hopes, false dreams and absolutely nothing else but puppets playing their own charades.

If you are Lawful Neutral, then, law is in itself an absolute and that is fine. But if you’re Lawful Good, law must have a purpose, or it must be changed to get one.

Do you really think that freewill means Chaos ? I don’t.

...

So, i chose to rebel. Not for myself, since as the Prophet, i was effectively the only one to really feel anything under Fate’s yoke. 

I did it because i realised that everyone else's suffering wasn't really suffering. Whatever they hoped, felt, said... was not their own. It was just what was written by Fate.

...

As a paladin, i did rebel because this was the only way to change the law, to give it a purpose, and hopefully a good one. To break the Law of Fate and offer something new instead.

...

Freewill, also known as the Law of Consequences.

Well said. But what about LIFE? As little Endrik gazed up at you with admiration did you explain to him these abstract concepts of free will? He felt his fear and his hopes whether or not they were destined to be felt. If you had never come along, and Uther and other prophets just kept their mouths shut, then all the world would see fate as merely a hypothetical idea with no more substance than angels dancing on the tips of needles. It would be hard to convince them that their children must die in the name of such notions.

I'm just being a devil's advocate, of course. I love reading the reasons people chose what they did, and don't believe there's a right choice at all. So thanks for your comments!!

Modifié par Baldecaran, 19 octobre 2011 - 12:05 .

[Baldecaran]

Rafe34 wrote...

...

When Llarien died, she fell apart. He left her there on the ground, still weeping. She stayed there for a long time before leaving that place. I think that maybe I neglected to think of something else that motivated her: revenge. After all, in her eyes, it was Fate who had caused the century of sorrow, Fate who had killed Merudoc and Norenshire and Llarien. I doubt she truly thought about the fact that if there was no fate, much of it would be on her own hands.

Given the choice, however, between letting Fate get away with it, (in her eyes), and taking Fate down by her own death, and the death of the world, there wasn't even a contest. She hardly listened to anyone's advice prior to making her choice.

She told her past self the whole truth, the whole story, (a little outside the lines of the dialogue here), and when the past Triss told her that she hoped she would have been able to make the same sacrifice- then she was at peace.

Perhaps she would get to see Llarien again, but even if not, their actions had been their own. They were not mere puppets, or simply a portrait painted by someone else. They were the artists. And to her, that was worth any sacrifice.

I love this. You really got deep inside your character's emotions, and let them rule her actions. The image of Triss walking down that desert road with her jaw clenched and mind made up is better than anything I hoped to achieve with this story. This is why RPGs are so interesting - the players can add so much. It's just like that painting you describe - the sum of the audience interpretation is much larger than that of the painter.

[jmlzemaggo]

Baldecaran wrote...
I don't believe there's a right choice at all.

  
 
Does truth has to be universal? Or could it do for any single soul. And still be truth. 
I do trust you enough to believe you actually believe what you say, only... I remember those feelings I had all along the way. 
I knew. I've always known. That was already written in the prolog. It's been always written. The Prophet is a book to me, and a book knows everything before, all it does is understanding it as it writes itself. And sharing it, only to avoid being alone. 
There was not even a choice for me. As soon as I could read the question, I had the answer... for a long time already. For ever. When I was just born. 
You feel safe, Paul, in your director chair, only for writting the piece, for creating and seemingly controlling the whole thing, but did it ever occure to you you're part of the 'Prophet' yourself? With that other higher being, the real PuppetMaster, laughing at you? Yet with another one above him?
Now how does that feel to be a puppet? I can tell you that part, thanks to you...
We're all in the same boat, Baldecaran and you might be the captain, but we're all going down. 
R.I.P... 

Modifié par jmlzemaggo, 19 octobre 2011 - 08:19 .

[Le Penombre]

Baldecaran wrote...

Well said. But what about LIFE? As little Endrik gazed up at you with admiration did you explain to him these abstract concepts of free will? He felt his fear and his hopes whether or not they were destined to be felt. If you had never come along, and Uther and other prophets just kept their mouths shut, then all the world would see fate as merely a hypothetical idea with no more substance than angels dancing on the tips of needles. It would be hard to convince them that their children must die in the name of such notions.

Let's answer to that in character :

The chain is no longer unfelt, at least for the only person who can change something. And that possibility of chance in itself was already limited by the very laws of creation. It was impossible to remake the past, to provide freewill AND unmake the century of sorrow. Right ?

But who decided that there should be such a dilemna ? Who said "choose slavery and blindness in Fate, or face pain and betray the hopes of others to provide freedom " ? Who set the alternatives and forced a single individual to make a choice ?

It wasn't me. I didn't even had a say about my prophetic dreams, right ? 

The choice, the only choice to be made by me was built so that it was painful. How can the Prophet be responsible for the nature of the choice imposed on him/her ? He must choose within those laws, not how they are made. 

And what about LIFE ? 

If he had lived, Endrick could have become a tyrant, a hero, or just one anonymous person amongst many others, who knows ? That's what we, mortals, hope for... that in life there is hope, and meaning. That we are what we do, and that sometimes, what we do makes a difference. Aren't we ?

As a paladin, until i "become" the Prophet,  i try to alleviate pain when i help another, because of hope. Because i believe (or Fate has written i must think i believe...) that in the present - even in its painful and horrible nature - resides the possibility of a better future. That all the atrocities we make should be avoided, but that we can still make something good out of war and death if we can't prevent them. That despite its transient, ephemeral nature, despite the fact everyone WILL experience sorrow, pain, loss, and finally death, there are still good things to be lived. Not only tomorrow, but right now, and even good memories to relive and take succor in. 

I am not a crusader who strive to be glorified, to make a difference of heroic proportion every breath i take. I do not rejoice in sacrifice, even if i admit those are sometimes necessary, i do not act to perpetuate things as they are and become a figure of legend. I hope that in a small way, things will improve. And i am not a single individual. I hope that society, that collective goodwill can improve things for everyone. Maybe not in my lifetime, but someday... someday. 

I may be a paladin, but i am not a god. I live just like others, and i strive to make life better. Someday i will die, and i just hope i will have as few regrets as can be possible, and that if i make a little difference, it will be a good one. I stand for my ideals, not because i think myself a messiah, or just  some kind of "chosen one" but because i have values and this existence is the only chance i have to act according to them. 

This is the person i believed i was. 

And then the illusion is shattered. 

In Lor's creation, there is NO hope. Fate already knows. Fate knew what Endrick's life would have been. Fate set in stone what he would have been, would have felt, what would have been his successes and failures. 

Where is Endrick, then ? Nowhere, except before my eyes.
Where are we all, then ? Nowhere, except before Lor's eyes. 

Our mortal definition of existence means nothing. There is no hope, there is no future, no present, no past. There is only Fate. And so, there is no Life, that we could recognize as such. 

The same applies for me, the Prophet, except that in a single instant, when i confront my past self, i can make the only choice i will ever make in my existence. The single choice everyone will make in all of Lor's creation. 

Endrick might not accept it, most adult people would not even agree to it in a purely hypothetical way, but they are not the ones who have to make the choice. And i am not them. I am only me. A predetermined creation whose life and feelings were already written until this very moment, but who also, just once, is allowed to really decide something. 

Why should my decision be perfect ? I live within those constraints that we call creation. I obey its laws because there is nothing else i can do. Nothing else anyone can do. And i had no say in the nature of the choice i had to make. If somebody if responsible for making me choose between two forms of suffering... this is not me. 

I am only responsible for choosing who will be sacrificed. I am even forced to sacrifice someone : either i let all those who live now die, or i save them and everyone will remain slaves to fate. Untold billions of people will never feel the chain that will remain here. And i can't go back. Lor offered me sanctuary for a time, in his dream, but i cannot even choose to forget and refuse to act. I MUST make that choice and my only act of freewill will be to determine which of those two alternatives i choose. Who will be sacrificed. 

If that's what it is all about and nothing can change that, well, so be it. As already said, the chain that is not felt... and maybe, it is the true nature of existence in Lor's creation. Maybe for mortals, and even for gods , life has no meaning but to be a sculpture made by the Creator and shaped by Fate. And even the prophets, the herezar and the rest were only part of the show, to provide the chain of events that would allow for a single individual to make a single choice in his existence, in all existences.

Which leads us to the crucial question, because, you see, those events happened. Because even Fate had to make them happen !

So...

What if the Creator provides the possibility to change the laws of creation ? 

What if he gives you something nobody never had, not even Fate herself ? What if he allows you to make a choice, a choice that even Fate -and Lor himself - will have to accept ?

What if there is the possibility to provide meaning ? To provide choices and hence consequences. What if instead of just ONE painful choice to be made by one individual in all eternity, there can be many little choices made by everyone, in his or her life ? 

Would you choose Fate ? Would you provide the perpetuation of this charade ? Would you allow a future for untold billions of Endricks until whatever End of All Time there is, if there is one ? Would you allow for untold billions of future people like Merudoc, Uther, Llarien and Evernorn to live, hope, suffer, make sacrifices and dream... in vain ? 

Or would you accept that Endrick, Merudoc, Uther, Llarien, Evernorn... and even yourself, must die one way or another, because that is what happens to mortals, but that for once, those deaths will truly provide hope ?

Would you sacrifice yourself and all people you know (most of whom important to you already dead in hope of making things better...) or would you sacrifice all who will come, just because the pain in the eyes of the child before you is too horrible ?

Would you act to spare a child and remain a hero in his eyes, and so doing, damning to ignorance this very child and everyone else for all eternity... and making the deaths of all the victims of the century of sorrow as meaningless as their lives... or will you accept that he too is fated to die, but that until there is truly freedom, no death, and no life either, has any meaning for mortals ? 

And so, by my hand, they all died. All of them. I betrayed them, yes. I certainly did. 

And after i made my choice, i saw that in fact, i made the right one. Creation was imperfect, incomplete, in Lor's eye. That's why he made it  so that at some time, there would be a possibility to make it truer than it was. 

In making my decision, my only decision, I made existence more real, for all those who would live, and their own existences would at least be more complete than our own. Their own sacrifices, pains, sorrows... they could have a significance, a meaning.

Maybe they will suffer and sometimes gain in their suffering, unlike us, who only played our part in an incomplete sculpture, waiting to be completed. We only thought we lived. They will truly live. The only significance of our existences was that we had to make room for them, for their freedom. For once, in all eternity, there was a true sacrifice, which really made a difference.

We all have to die, but for once, we truly die for those who will follow. 

This is not Heaven, mind you, not at all. But now, this is truly Life. Experience, growth, change, death, renewal. And not just  a tapestry that not even the maker is satisfied with... 

I was a paladin, i strived to make things better. I acted all my "life" in hope that tomorrow, if not today, things would be better. I thought that in every child, there may be a future tyrant, a future victim, or a future hero. And that everyone should have his chance to become better, to enjoy his life and help others enjoy their lives. That nothing was pre-determined but that every choice had consequences and everyone is responsible for his own damnation, or salvation. That a single life, our very own life each one of us, can make a difference.

And i made that a reality. 

Nobody will ever know, except Lor. There will be not a trace of my act, except in his mind. The past will be forgotten, this world and everyone in it is dead. 

There are millions who died painfully and in fear because of me, and who will never remember they ever existed, and billions who will never know they own me their freedom. Only Lor will know, and i was nothing but his tool. Imperfect, and not at all guaranteed to act properly, but the final piece he used to complete his creation. To make it reborn anew or to stand incomplete, according to my decision.

I now understand that Lor wanted to complete his creation, but couldn't do it. If i had made the other choice, who knows how many centuries, millenias, would happen until Lor - the creator who wanted to perfect his creation  - would again arrange events so that another opportunity to complete his work - another Prophet - would arise ? Who knows ?

And considering this intent of the Creator about his creation, who knows of many times in the untold eons past other Prophets appeared and had the same choice to make, but choose Fate ?

I will never know. 

I strived to make things better. In a way, they are, now. 

Then, i am no longer a prophet. Just a mortal who has no more home, and no more illusions. It is time then, to end my own charade. To go to sleep, to be forgotten. To leave room for something new, something in which life, purpose, freedom, consequences... are real. I cannot go back, i cannot forget.

Only the sands of time will keep the footprints of my existence... for a time. Even Lor will forget about me, somewhen in the future of eternity.

And you know what ? This is just fine. 

Life, now, finally has meaning. 

And because life is beautiful, it is time to die.

Modifié par Le Pénombre, 19 octobre 2011 - 09:11 .

[Baldecaran]

Thanks for your thoughts!

Le Pénombre wrote...
And after i made my choice, i saw that in fact, i made the right one. Creation was imperfect, incomplete, in Lor's eye. That's why he made it  so that at some time, there would be a possibility to make it truer than it was. 

...

I now understand that Lor wanted to complete his creation, but couldn't do it. If i had made the other choice, who knows how many centuries, millenias, would happen until Lor - the creator who wanted to perfect his creation  - would again arrange events so that another opportunity to complete his work - another Prophet - would arise?

Right. To create existence out of nothingness, Lor had to split nothingness into balanced pieces, the physical elements, the forces of life & death, and the past and future. Such a creation could only exist if things were in balance, and to balance the past and future he had to create them "together", so that all events lean against each other. But this was not satisfactory in his eyes. He wanted this creation to have free will. You're right - he couldn't give it free will or it would not be truly free. The world had to make that choice on its own. But the price is that the balance could not be maintained, and so the entire universe (and all those infinite worlds) existed for only a finite moment. In a sense then, your choice was the final stroke of Lor's hammer, with which he completed and ended his creation.

That's how it looks from Lor's perspective, outside of normal time. From the perspective of mortals such as your paladin, Endrik, and everyone else, it is very different:

From your perspective, within normal time, the choice that you made implies that fate never existed. So she was not responsible for anything. All who have lived had been fully in charge of their acts, and thus must take both credit and blame for them. Uther Palandras was indeed guilty of slaughtering an entire village of innocents, by his own free choice. Llarien did indeed freely sacrifice himself for the hope for a future. The Herezars were truly to blame for setting in motion the trap that led to the century of sorrow, and you are indeed guilty of following their plan and destroying the world. Worse still, your choice proves that none of it was necessary. Fate never did rule the world - she was just a fiction. The whole Herezar plan was just a way of answering a question, the one question they cared about most. Perhaps your paladin is correct that a world ruled by fate would have been devoid of meaning, but his choice proves it was never the case.

[Le Penombre]

Interesting, Baldecaran, but being the Prophet means to no longer experience events only "within normal time".

Because the mortal perception of time, the linear time, doesn't account for the usual paradox that a consequence can predate an action... and this is precisely the impact of the choice you provide to the player.

If by my choice i decide that Fate never existed, we are outside  "normal time". Because, if we remain in "normal time" i would never had dreamed about her and the child (future) i kill... since by my choice they never existed. I never meet her, talk to her, because she never was here.
So, if she never existed, who was the woman i met ? Who or what made me dream something which never existed ? I never dreamt about her, then ? So, i never acted and never decided to deny Fate, because my decision had no impact since she never existed anyway and i never had the notion that i needed to oppose her... Even more, nothing ever happened and i never had prophetic dreams. NOBODY never had prophetic dreams.

Because Uther could not oppose a Century of Sorrow which was not prophesied, since there never was Fate and nothing was destined. Even if he had  a dream he thought prophetic, how could he decide to attack Norenshire since it is because he does it that i met him before my own birth to ask him why and so provide him the mean to awake my gift for prophecy. 

That is "normal time", but because there IS a decision, normal time doesn't apply to the Prophet. We are talking about a time paradox, where consequences can predate actions instead of actions leading to consequences. From the very beginning, the first dream, the paradox apply : if i deny fate, she never existed precisely because she did and i opposed her. You are also saying this, but the other way around, when you said 'none of it was necessary". Yes, none of it was necessary, precisely because it was. I become the Prophet because i have a dream about norenshire and try to prevent this massacre and this event exists because i am the Prophet meet Uther and tell him how to attract my attention. Ditto for the splinter's of Lor hammer. All along the story, the Prophet is within "normal time" (actions leads to consequences) but at the same time, everything happens so that he reaches the crux, the moment in which he has to make his decision and he can make it because - among other things - of the splinter which - as the Prophet - he sends backward in time. 

Nice try, but as i said, none of it was necessary, because in fact it was

But... let us consider the other alternative. If i save my world, Fate was always omnipotent - since i do what she decreed (i lie to my past self to save the world as my future self lies to me) and, those are also "not necessary", since everything was already written and there was never any choice at all. Right ? 

Wrong. Once more, we are outside of "normal time". And in another paradox.

If i choose this, then, i do not deny Fate... i make her real !! She as always been there and will always be there and even my decision is her dictate, because... i said so.

That is the decision, and the decision is made by the player, as the Prophet... outside of "normal time".

But, for roleplaying's sake, let us imagine that  Lor never intended anything, that he just created the world and let Fate rule everything. 

Then, the story happens and when the Prophet is supposed to "choose", he just "choose" Fate, because everything is preset and predetermined, even his own story, and there is no choice. Let us imagine there is no Prophet and no choice, but only a story made by Fate about a mortal who opposes her to finally bow to her... this is just a story, because the mortal cannot even think for himself. There is no "normal time", no decision, nothing.


Just drama.

And Fate