89 réponses à ce sujet

[Baldecaran]

jmlzemaggo wrote...

I knew. I've always known. That was already written in the prolog. It's been always written. The Prophet is a book to me, and a book knows everything before, all it does is understanding it as it writes itself. And sharing it, only to avoid being alone. 
There was not even a choice for me. As soon as I could read the question, I had the answer... for a long time already.

It is interesting that you never had doubts about your choice, and felt that the whole series called for it. It's ironic, because when I wrote chapter 1 I still didn't know how I would wrap it all up! I knew there would be a battle against fate, but not the price that had to be paid, or for that matter, what the "century of sorrow" would even be!

jmlzemaggo wrote...
You feel safe, Paul, in your director chair, only for writting the piece, for creating and seemingly controlling the whole thing, but did it ever occure to you you're part of the 'Prophet' yourself? With that other higher being, the real PuppetMaster, laughing at you? Yet with another one above him?

Maybe you're right. Many of the story ideas developed seemingly without my planning, and "wrote themselves" as I was working on various conversations. Some of the events just fit with the others, and demanded to be implemented. So I guess it's a bit like Lor's fate: To make the story fit together some of its twists and turns forced the others. Lots of writers talk of this: sometimes the personalities of the characters simply demand you let them do something that wasn't part of your original plan. Here it was similar. When I wrote chapter 2 it was essentially in tandem with chapter 3 - that's part of the reason why it took so ridiculously long...

[Baldecaran]

Le Pénombre wrote...

So, if she never existed, who was the woman i met ? Who or what made me dream something which never existed ? I never dreamt about her, then ? So, i never acted and never decided to deny Fate, because my decision had no impact since she never existed anyway and i never had the notion that i needed to oppose her... Even more, nothing ever happened and i never had prophetic dreams. NOBODY never had prophetic dreams.

(Hmmmm... let me see if I can dig myself out of this metaphysical hole... Here goes...)

From the mortal perspective:

Strictly speaking, prophetic dreams are not incompatible with a universe in which free will exists. As long as they are sufficiently vague so that room is left for choices, they can avoid creating a paradox. For example, consider the poisoning of the wellspring:

You never saw the face of the hooded man who spoke those words. When you came to Hierathanum, there were three potential universes: one in which Atelkhan poisons the wellspring, one in which it is Amhothet, and one in which it is Nazathar. Any of those was compatible with the past, as well as with your vision. But given the choices you made, you followed only one of these universes, in which the poisoning still took place. Who committed it was determined by your free choices. But a universe in which you saw the face of the hooded man could not exist, and so it didn't.

What about the dream weavers? Well, the only reason they can see all time in a glance is because they are unable to communicate what they see clearly enough to create an actual paradox. Their aphasia is part of the secret of their art. If one of them were to learn normal speech, she would immediately lose her powers as well as her memories.

Le Pénombre wrote...

Because Uther could not oppose a Century of Sorrow which was not prophesied, since there never was Fate and nothing was destined. Even if he had  a dream he thought prophetic, how could he decide to attack Norenshire since it is because he does it that i met him before my own birth to ask him why and so provide him the mean to awake my gift for prophecy. 

Uther could not see who would begin the Century of Sorrow, because knowing that would make the prophecy impossible. Perhaps it didn't have to be you, as long as it was someone with a gift of prophecy (or otherwise the Herezar trick would not work). But because it had to be someone with the sight, Uther would be able to learn that, and he did. But perhaps he didn't have to destroy Norenshire. Perhaps he could have captured you in some other way... But he freely chose to use the halflings as a trap.

So then who was the woman you saw in the dream, if not fate? She was just a figment of your imagination - a fable concocted by those who thought about the nature of prophetic sight and decided that fate must exist. Your dreams were full of metaphors and illusions as your mind tried to make sense of its visions, and she was one of them.

With a fateless universe, time can proceed in a billion different ways, but it only does proceed in one way. And you and other prophets ascribed purpose to the shape of time just as ancient men ascribed purpose to the eruption of a volcano.

Nevertheless, even the Herezars could not be sure of any of this. That is why they set their plan into motion - there was no other way to truly determine whether the universe unfolds the way it does because of the choices we make, or because it is meant to do so. Their plan was a kind of challenge to the gods, a wager that their victim - you - would stand against the demands of history. Ironically, if free will existed, then you would have been free to lie to your past self and save the world. That would not necessarily have created fate, but you would never know.

[jmlzemaggo]

What I believe is this unknown part of the writter I mentionned, the High Puppet Master, is you, you as a collection, as a, unfortunately quite efficient in your case, receptacle of the whole 3rd millennium human knowledge, with too many things in that only one body of yours to handle in one lifetime maybe, but still, you can use it all... at the only condition of allowing yourself to do or write things... without any control. Without trying to figure out, to decipher, to, perhaps scientifically, translate the whole.
I'm afraid you choose the way of the writer, when you could have gone your scientist one, even a mad one. All the same anyway, 'just making your Nobel Price a bit further....
That's also the reason why I believe your writing is so light, light as wind.
Another reason why I played it with the heaviest class around, but still, one which could fly at the end.

Because it's intuitive. Almsot "sensuel".
The most important word of all, and for ever french to me. Nothing pretentious, it's just the only way I can truly feel it, and only then, trying to offer it.

What you talked about here isn't the most important to me, even if it's not too bad already (french guy here!) but the way you wrote it.
And this is what makes your Prophet, because it's fully yours, very special, if not personal, to me: its lightness.
From some heavy thinking eventually. Even above the greatest story or idea of all.
You could have tried to use it, to control it, and in the end, to subdue it. To finally enchain it.
Owning, making it yours instead of offering it, what you did. It tells a lot about you, to yourself in the first place.
Now, if you ever mention to any one any of these kind words I was stupid, or grateful, enough to write about you here, I'd say you're a liar.
Which you're obviously not. To say the least. 
I'm very pleased with the way you used and abused NWN. You both deserve it. 

Modifié par jmlzemaggo, 23 octobre 2011 - 07:56 .

[Citillara]

My character and I chose to deny fate.
Through the entire series, she always tried to prevent the events she saw in her dreams. Furthermore, she cannot stand the absence of free will, though in the following example it kinda more looks like blackmailing. When Atelkhan asks her to bare the collar, she refuses it to a point she has to fight them all. Another point is because all sufferings would have been meaningless if she accept fate and let everything happen normally. Of course, even with Free Will there is still people who will suffer, however the Creation would become only richer if it was multiplied in a countless number of worlds than just one written in advance.
There is also the meeting with the Creator; this was for her the most decisive thing. As He was ignoring her, she could not help think, “If He doesn’t intervene that means it’s allowed. We are allowed to reshape our creation”
Finally, the fact that no prophet could see anything after the Century of Sorrow was meaningful. In a way we can say it was the fate that the Fate would be denied. (Please do not comment the syntax of that sentence )
In addition, by the denial, indeed the last piece is set in place. As the Creator could not create Free Will, He created that world in the way it would create it alone because He sets the Fate. It is like creating an AI without space constrains: you write a small piece of code that will write the rest.
Therefore, it should stand something like this: the Creator makes the beginning of a world (even if it holds millennia’s of history it still remains small) in which a set of events will create Free Will. Statues representing worlds that failed (or where He did not wanted Free Will) to achieve Free Will and are governed by Fate. Broken ones, those where the Prophet failed during the 3rd chapter (died after activating the Century of Sorrows)
Indeed that was a one of the great epic modules I have ever played in NWN and I am glad you kept going on that game even after all those years!
Did you ever play HeX Coda? Great module with the time loop in the first chapter. Unfortunately, he never made the second one but I found somewhere the script for it and it was good too.

[jmlzemaggo]

@ Citillara

StefanGagne did release a "the HeX coda 02 (Incomplete Yet Finished Release)", probably the one you're talking about...
You can find it in my (new) list:

"Best community modules", for NWN beginners &... more
                         (also in my signature)

Modifié par jmlzemaggo, 23 octobre 2011 - 05:00 .

[DekuBush]

I had to come out of my permanent lurk to voice my thoughts about this amazing series.
 
Talindra (my Prophet, imported through Cave of Songs & Honour Among Thieves) chose to defy Fate. She had her own motivations, but chief among them was that she couldn't bring herself to betray herself and all her friends, as she saw it. She'd suffered too much and seen too much death and betrayal to inflict that on her younger self. Besides that, after the sheer agonising futility of her long battle with Fate, she wasn't going to capitulate at the last. (There weren't enough dialogue options in the dream of Norenshire for her to really tell Fate what she thought of her. But then I'm not sure there could ever be enough invective for that particular confrontation.)
 
Deep down, I think she hoped that if she told her past self the truth, she'd wake up back in Hierathanum and the Century of Sorrow would never have happened. In a sense, she did; certainly a Talindra was warned, didn't take the Sceptre of Lor, and woke into a world governed not by Fate but Free Will. (As to what became of the one who warned her, she entered the Vortex of Worlds, and given the choice, she'd have 'become' that story.)
 
But it got me thinking; if my Talindra didn't change her own past, then whose future did she change? If that was another Talindra, from another world, then imagine the magnitude of the betrayal a lie would represent: Not only would she be condemning her own world to an eternity of slavery under Fate, but she'd be condemning another world to the Century of Sorrow, and another Talindra to the same dreadful choice. Uncounted worlds of unborn may rest in her hands. Fate's universe would spin on a cycle of betrayal, each world in turn condemning the next to torment and itself to bondage, until someone defies Her and breaks the chain.
 
And on that happy thought, I'll return to my lurking.

[furballs]

I thought the ending was amazing, both of them.  I decided to play both endings by playing one ending then go back to a save  just before the ending. I can see you really worked on making  on an amazing mod. I really was abosrb in it. Thank-you for making it.

[Rafe34]

I do have a question, something I missed. The child I was supposed to kill. Either something glitched in my game, or I never actually killed her. Or perhaps that was all a metaphor for something that just went completely over my head. I've thought about it as being child = Fate's plan to restore the balance, but that wasn't really made clear to me.

Modifié par Rafe34, 25 octobre 2011 - 05:37 .

[Snowdog65]

GRRR!

Some lame troll has been creating garbage accounts on the Vault to vote this wonderful mod down...

It is sad that the vault is so mismanaged that it makes the perfect troll/spammer breeding ground. It must be the only forum I have been on that doesn't even require email verification to set up accounts, thus trolls don't even need to remember passwords, they just make up new garbage accounts for each post (and get to vote again).

[Snowdog65]

Rafe34 wrote...

I do have a question, something I missed. The child I was supposed to kill. Either something glitched in my game, or I never actually killed her. Or perhaps that was all a metaphor for something that just went completely over my head. I've thought about it as being child = Fate's plan to restore the balance, but that wasn't really made clear to me.

It is a metaphor IMO, for the very fabric of reality. You destroy it at the end of Ch2 with the Hammer or Lor. 

[Baldecaran]

Citillara wrote...
My character and I chose to deny fate.
Through the entire series, she always tried to prevent the events she saw in her dreams. Furthermore, she cannot stand the absence of free will, though in the following example it kinda more looks like blackmailing. When Atelkhan asks her to bare the collar, she refuses it to a point she has to fight them all. Another point is because all sufferings would have been meaningless if she accept fate and let everything happen normally. Of course, even with Free Will there is still people who will suffer, however the Creation would become only richer if it was multiplied in a countless number of worlds than just one written in advance.
There is also the meeting with the Creator; this was for her the most decisive thing. As He was ignoring her, she could not help think, “If He doesn’t intervene that means it’s allowed. We are allowed to reshape our creation”

I think I am starting to understand why so many people are choosing free will: Because when you play this module, you actually are making free choices, not knowing what their consequences will be but knowing your reasons for making them. And in the end you want those reasons to mean something. Perhaps the linearity of the story is one of the things you are ultimately rebelling against. I think it must be very hard, after being constrained for so long (3 modules over >6 years!), to choose to give in to those constraints. As the builder, I saw this series very differently, more like a whole where the end must fit the beginning. So for me the choice of obeying fate just seems more acceptable, like the completion of symmetry. I really expected we'd be closer to 50/50 - shows what I know! :happy:

Citillara wrote...
Therefore, it should stand something like this: the Creator makes the beginning of a world (even if it holds millennia’s of history it still remains small) in which a set of events will create Free Will. Statues representing worlds that failed (or where He did not wanted Free Will) to achieve Free Will and are governed by Fate. Broken ones, those where the Prophet failed during the 3rd chapter (died after activating the Century of Sorrows)

Interesting idea. Not what I was thinking, but it fits nicely.

Citillara wrote...
Did you ever play HeX Coda? Great module with the time loop in the first chapter. Unfortunately, he never made the second one but I found somewhere the script for it and it was good too.

Yes, and I loved it. I didn't try the unfinished part 2. But I loved all of Stefan Gagne's stuff. EE2 is my favorite.

BTW - If you really, and I mean really want to see a twisted plot structure, check out the movie "Primer". See it twice, then scratch your head a bit, then read some of the discussions on primermovie.com/, and then see it again. It makes all other time loop stories seem simple by comparison.

[Baldecaran]

DekuBush wrote...
Talindra (my Prophet, imported through Cave of Songs & Honour Among Thieves) chose to defy Fate. She had her own motivations, but chief among them was that she couldn't bring herself to betray herself and all her friends, as she saw it. She'd suffered too much and seen too much death and betrayal to inflict that on her younger self. Besides that, after the sheer agonising futility of her long battle with Fate, she wasn't going to capitulate at the last. (There weren't enough dialogue options in the dream of Norenshire for her to really tell Fate what she thought of her. But then I'm not sure there could ever be enough invective for that particular confrontation.)

Hmmm... I should add more options there!

DekuBush wrote...
But it got me thinking; if my Talindra didn't change her own past, then whose future did she change? If that was another Talindra, from another world, then imagine the magnitude of the betrayal a lie would represent: Not only would she be condemning her own world to an eternity of slavery under Fate, but she'd be condemning another world to the Century of Sorrow, and another Talindra to the same dreadful choice. Uncounted worlds of unborn may rest in her hands. Fate's universe would spin on a cycle of betrayal, each world in turn condemning the next to torment and itself to bondage, until someone defies Her and breaks the chain.

Interesting perspective... What I was thinking is that if the prophet tells the lie, then it is because there is only one world. So that is not another Talindra you see but the same one you were when you looked into the future. And your choice was never a choice at all.

Thanks for unlurking! (is that a word?)

Modifié par Baldecaran, 28 octobre 2011 - 10:59 .

[Baldecaran]

furballs wrote...

I thought the ending was amazing, both of them.  I decided to play both endings by playing one ending then go back to a save  just before the ending. I can see you really worked on making  on an amazing mod. I really was abosrb in it. Thank-you for making it.

I'm glad you liked it! But which ending did you choose first? There can only be one first choice, and that makes all the difference...

[Baldecaran]

Rafe34 wrote...

I do have a question, something I missed. The child I was supposed to kill. Either something glitched in my game, or I never actually killed her. Or perhaps that was all a metaphor for something that just went completely over my head. I've thought about it as being child = Fate's plan to restore the balance, but that wasn't really made clear to me.

It depends on your choice at the end. If you choose to defy fate, then the boy is a metaphor for the future, which you have destroyed. If you obey fate, then he is a metaphor for the fabric of reality, the balance between the elements, just as snowdog said in an earlier post.

BTW - When I made the prologue and chapter 1, I still didn't have the ending worked out. At that time, I was thinking the boy represents the future, and you will destroy it but there may be another. That's why that phrase appears a few times. In retrospect I might want to fine-tune some of that...

[furballs]

The way I saw it it felt real like a i was living it for those few  last tense moments. The choice was difficult but  I just  couldn't  bring myself  to lie to my past self so I decided to go with free will.

[strannik16]

I chose to embrace Fate, not for any affinity towards her, but because I felt it would be monstrous to destroy the world over a questionable philosophical premise: namely, that our lives are meaningless in the absence of free will. In the world we live in, the existence of free will is tenuous at best, as the biochemistry of our brains, formed by many factors beyond our control, has an inordinate influence on our thoughts, ideas and behavior. And yet I view human lives as full of meaning, and I see that meaning in our interactions with our friends and loved ones, in the things we enjoy and the thoughts we think, in things we build and discover about our world. Of course, I think the real world has enough complexity, randomness and unpredictability that we can enjoy an illusion of free will - but I don't think free will is necessary in order for life to have meaning. (As an aside, I don't believe in fate either - I think an interplay of rigid natural laws and randomness rules our lives. It would have been nice to see this idea explored in more detail in the Prophet series, but I guess in a world where prophets can predict future events with absolute certainty, randomness needs to take a back seat.)

The Herezars, obviously, felt differently, and thought free will was the only thing that gave anyone's life meaning. I sympathize with this view, but I utterly deplore the actions they took when they realized the world does not fit their preconceptions. In their quest to impose their notion of "meaning" on the world, they were willing to murder their own children, plunge the world into a century of untold suffering, and finally destroy it completely. Even if I were to agree with their philosophy, I wouldn't choose in their favor: for denying Fate would mean embracing and rewarding their atrocities. The fact that I did not embrace their worldview made the choice easier still - though obviously, as it turned out, it was no choice at all.

That said, after making my choice and seeing the ending, I immediately loaded a saved game and tried the other option. I have to admit: I like the free will ending better. I guess the idea of free will is appealing on a primal, intrinsic level - even if may only be an illusion.

At any rate, thanks once again for this beautiful series. I think it stands up as an example of the best of what the video game genre has to offer, and is an excellent work of fiction in its own right!

[Rafe34]

Baldecaran wrote...

It depends on your choice at the end. If you choose to defy fate, then the boy is a metaphor for the future, which you have destroyed. If you obey fate, then he is a metaphor for the fabric of reality, the balance between the elements, just as snowdog said in an earlier post.

BTW - When I made the prologue and chapter 1, I still didn't have the ending worked out. At that time, I was thinking the boy represents the future, and you will destroy it but there may be another. That's why that phrase appears a few times. In retrospect I might want to fine-tune some of that...

Yeah, that wasn't entirely clear to me. I think that's because every other vision literally comes to pass, whereas this one does not. I kept expecting to run into some woman who was Fate's avatar or something, and killing her child for some good reason that I did not know at the time I saw the vision.

The only reason why I came to the conclusion I did, which was partially correct, was because you use Lor's scepter to kill him. The only thing you could be sure I would use that weapon on was the Penteract.

[Rafe34]

strannik16 wrote...

I chose to embrace Fate, not for any affinity towards her, but because I felt it would be monstrous to destroy the world over a questionable philosophical premise: namely, that our lives are meaningless in the absence of free will. In the world we live in, the existence of free will is tenuous at best, as the biochemistry of our brains, formed by many factors beyond our control, has an inordinate influence on our thoughts, ideas and behavior. And yet I view human lives as full of meaning, and I see that meaning in our interactions with our friends and loved ones, in the things we enjoy and the thoughts we think, in things we build and discover about our world.

How? How can they mean anything if what you do is pre-determined from the moment you are born?

How can you hold a murderer responsible for his actions if he was pre-destined to do it?

How can you give credit to a hero if he had no choice *but* to lay down his life for that child? What we enjoy was determined by factors outside our control, the interactions would already be predestined. What meaning is there if what we do is determined by those factors?

Do we condemn some and praise others for actions they had no choice but to do? This would be the same as telling a computer that answers a question correctly that it has done "good," and one that answers it incorrectly that it has done "wrong." In addition, you're also saying those computers still have meaning because of the way they interact with each other.

FTR- I think we do have free will in the real world, but I think its mostly because I see no meaning if everything is predestined, not because there is a clear argument for it, (or against it, for that matter).

Modifié par Rafe34, 03 novembre 2011 - 04:29 .

[Baldecaran]

strannik16 wrote...

I chose to embrace Fate, not for any affinity towards her, but because I felt it would be monstrous to destroy the world over a questionable philosophical premise: namely, that our lives are meaningless in the absence of free will. ...

The Herezars, obviously, felt differently, and thought free will was the only thing that gave anyone's life meaning. I sympathize with this view, but I utterly deplore the actions they took when they realized the world does not fit their preconceptions. In their quest to impose their notion of "meaning" on the world, they were willing to murder their own children, plunge the world into a century of untold suffering, and finally destroy it completely. Even if I were to agree with their philosophy, I wouldn't choose in their favor: for denying Fate would mean embracing and rewarding their atrocities.

Good point! Indeed, to choose free will is to choose to condone the Herezar plan, to reward their selfishness and give them the prize for which they were willing to sacrifice all of their descendants. Obviously, there really is no "good" ending.

-----------------

Given the fact that most people have chosen free will, I feel the need to try to defend choosing fate, as strannik and Zireael had done (I think they're the only ones so far). Of course, if most of you had chosen fate, I would now be trying to defend free will .

It has been said that with a fated universe, there is no meaning. But perhaps there's another way to look at the role that fate plays. Suppose that fate exists but it is not she who actually *decides* everyone's choices. Suppose that everyone's choices are indeed their own - they are consequences of their personality, their history, their place in the world. A knightly paladin may fight injustice because he has the means, while a thief might steal from the needy because he himself has never known mercy. So although they could make many different decisions, at each moment they only do make one. In other words: Although the world could in principle unfold in an infinite number of different ways, it actually does unfolds only in one way. And "fate" is merely an omniscient manifestation of this fact.

Consider it this way: Consider a hypothetical historian of the distant future, who can look back at our world and see everything in the slightest detail, rewinding or fast-forwarding over events at will, zooming in here or there. Would that historian be responsible for the things she sees? Of course not, not any more than a detective uncovering a crime would be responsible for that crime. Having knowledge of how the world unfolds is not the same as controlling it.

The difference with fate is that she stands outside of time, and thus makes it possible for knowledge of the future to enter the past. And then, when those who hear a prophecy see that they cannot change it, this shatters their illusion of a free will beyond the forces of history, our place in the world, and our personality. But what illusion is really being shattered? We do know that the world will only unfold in one way. It is still our way, shaped by our personalities and history. What other kind of free will would anyone want? Randomness?

From fate's omniscient perspective, all of time is a carving in stone. But it is not she who carves it. It is we who set it all into stone through our actions. Fate just watches, and occasionally allows the shape of time to become known to those within it, as long as no paradox is created. Like she said at the end of chapter 2, that prophetic sight was meant to be a gift to allow mortals to appreciate the beauty of creation.

Modifié par Baldecaran, 04 novembre 2011 - 02:02 .

[Viriatus original]

Hi.

I choose the option of change. Being a pawn all my life, across all the story, and so all the destruction of the Century of Sorrow had not served for anything. Also, with all my friends dead, in an era that it was not mine anymore, and a future dubious in which nothing could be changed... what Had I have to lose?

Also, by changing past, I ensured that my past self would have the oportunity of preventing the Century of Sorrow,  to enjoy a fulfilling, normal life, and that his future would be his, and not written by fate. It was the option I had wanted my previous (future) self had offered to me.

In the end, it was my only, true real choice... and I choose it.

----------------------------

The ending was superb, though in the end it resulted a bit annoying to discover that, anyway, you had been the last pawn of Lor to complete the creation. But since you were the one who could complete what the creator was not capable of, and that yours was the decission of giving the world the gift of free will... well, it is somewhat fulfilling too.

Of course, I also reloaded to see what happened if choosing the ''wrong" option. The closing of the circle was also very well carried on. But anyway, this ending is a bit sad. Fortunately, nobody (except the few prophets) should ever know about their 'cage'.


Again, congratulations for such a good job, and thank you very much for making it

----------------------
(Btw, a little glich I forgot to report: you can attack -and eventually kill- your past self -who doesn't try to defend- in the dream. But if so, you can not exit the dream, and got trapped. Maybe in the case of attacking it could be considered the same than altering the dream -or setting your past self to non-attackable-).

[Baldecaran]

Viriatus original wrote...

I choose the option of change. Being a pawn all my life, across all the story, and so all the destruction of the Century of Sorrow had not served for anything. Also, with all my friends dead, in an era that it was not mine anymore, and a future dubious in which nothing could be changed... what Had I have to lose?

Also, by changing past, I ensured that my past self would have the oportunity of preventing the Century of Sorrow,  to enjoy a fulfilling, normal life, and that his future would be his, and not written by fate. It was the option I had wanted my previous (future) self had offered to me.

Cool. I see now what it must be like to play through this series - so frustrating to have one's actions always flow to the same ultimate end. So I hope that final revolt against fate (and the linear storyline) is satisfying!

But now I wonder - in the universe of your past self, in which the Century of Sorrow will presumably not happen, are prophecies false?...

Thanks for your thoughts, and for pointing out some bugs. They're pretty easy fixes.

[Ivan Grushenko]

First of all, I´ve to thank you, I really appreciated the module, one of the best I´ve played - probably the "top one" among the deeply roleplaying kind.
The places that you designed are simply astonishing. Great beauty between the Elven´s High City, the raw human village from the north, the desert of ice and emptiness, all the jungles and other natural landscapes. Fantastic architecture.
Well, I played like a druid, Lawful Neutral who have been tortured by his choices, frequently, defying the Nature itself. By his entire life, the only pattern that he could identify while observing the wild world is the desire of "survive". He didn´t look further for a great aim, a superior and noble objective. Everything must keep on within their own existence. His tridimensional euclidean mind just could not understand a higher goal. The Nature is, but no one knows the purpose. Along the game, he turns out a Lawful Good character and his practical view of world, always so contemplative about the existence as a beatiful event that should prevail at all cost, has changed a lot. And finally, the perspective of a meaning makes him insane. The madness falls heavily against his head - even more after Llarien´s death. The beauty of life wasn´t enough anymore and in his ultimate effort, he brings end to the creation, to everything that he has vowed to protect in a distant past.
As you can notice, that dilemma made me to change my class, my poor character could not keep his beliefs and his moral sense.
Truly amazing, heartbreaking plot, great NPCs (especially Llarien) and a lot of philosophycal questions to be raised. Pure poetry. Thank you again. And you should contact Terry Gilliam and convince him to make a movie about... = )

[jmlzemaggo]

Ivan Grushenko wrote...

First of all, I´ve to thank you, I really appreciated the module, one of the best I´ve played - probably the "top one" among the deeply roleplaying kind.
The places that you designed are simply astonishing. Great beauty between the Elven´s High City, the raw human village from the north, the desert of ice and emptiness, all the jungles and other natural landscapes. Fantastic architecture.
Well, I played like a druid, Lawful Neutral who have been tortured by his choices, frequently, defying the Nature itself. By his entire life, the only pattern that he could identify while observing the wild world is the desire of "survive". He didn´t look further for a great aim, a superior and noble objective. Everything must keep on within their own existence. His tridimensional euclidean mind just could not understand a higher goal. The Nature is, but no one knows the purpose. Along the game, he turns out a Lawful Good character and his practical view of world, always so contemplative about the existence as a beatiful event that should prevail at all cost, has changed a lot. And finally, the perspective of a meaning makes him insane. The madness falls heavily against his head - even more after Llarien´s death. The beauty of life wasn´t enough anymore and in his ultimate effort, he brings end to the creation, to everything that he has vowed to protect in a distant past.
As you can notice, that dilemma made me to change my class, my poor character could not keep his beliefs and his moral sense.
Truly amazing, heartbreaking plot, great NPCs (especially Llarien) and a lot of philosophycal questions to be raised. Pure poetry. Thank you again. And you should contact Terry Gilliam and convince him to make a movie about... = )

Just listening twice to the music...

[Baldecaran]

Ivan Grushenko wrote...

First of all, I´ve to thank you, I really appreciated the module, one of the best I´ve played - probably the "top one" among the deeply roleplaying kind.
The places that you designed are simply astonishing. Great beauty between the Elven´s High City, the raw human village from the north, the desert of ice and emptiness, all the jungles and other natural landscapes. Fantastic architecture.
Well, I played like a druid, Lawful Neutral who have been tortured by his choices, frequently, defying the Nature itself. By his entire life, the only pattern that he could identify while observing the wild world is the desire of "survive". He didn´t look further for a great aim, a superior and noble objective. Everything must keep on within their own existence. His tridimensional euclidean mind just could not understand a higher goal. The Nature is, but no one knows the purpose. Along the game, he turns out a Lawful Good character and his practical view of world, always so contemplative about the existence as a beatiful event that should prevail at all cost, has changed a lot. And finally, the perspective of a meaning makes him insane. The madness falls heavily against his head - even more after Llarien´s death. The beauty of life wasn´t enough anymore and in his ultimate effort, he brings end to the creation, to everything that he has vowed to protect in a distant past.
As you can notice, that dilemma made me to change my class, my poor character could not keep his beliefs and his moral sense.
Truly amazing, heartbreaking plot, great NPCs (especially Llarien) and a lot of philosophycal questions to be raised. Pure poetry. Thank you again. And you should contact Terry Gilliam and convince him to make a movie about... = )

Thanks for your kind words. Yes, if I had my choice of directors I would definitely choose Terry Gilliam. He has such a great eye for visual splendor.

The story of your character is very interesting. I didn't have druids in mind so much but I can see that they must be challenging to take through the mod. There's a powerful conflict between nature's demands for survival (and balance among all things) and the very human demand for free will. So tragic that he lost his mind and betrayed all he originally stood for... In a sense, it's like nature betraying itself: human nature betraying the natural order of things.

[RangerSG]

Baldecaran,First off, thank you for your amazing work in NWN. Loved Honor Among Thieves, and enjoyed this as well.

The fights were a little easy for my sorceress. But that may be because I play a lot of mages and know what I'm doing now. There were a couple exceptions with the 'puzzle' fights (like the fire elemental). But that was more due to glitches in the engine than difficulty in the battle itself.

As far as the choice went, if my prophetess knew how many of her alternate universe brethren chose "free will" I think she'd be loosing a multiverse level IGMS. (Now, to be fair, I did save before and try just about every convo combination I could think of.)

Blaming Fate for the Herezer's monstrosity stunned her. And she never thought of herself as being manipulated any 'less' by them than she was by Fate. Chaotic Good (starting CN actually and drifting good over the game) or not, choosing life was the only thing that made sense.

Furthermore, she never accepted the Herezer's argument that Fate means choice losing meaning. Fate and Lor are necessarily outside of time, they have to be to Create. A prophet only sees portions of time from within, and without concern for the sequence. Differing perspectives mean the chain of causality is not the same. There is still room for authentic choice. Which, she would submit, is all you 'ever' really have.

It's not "free will" to destroy creation. It's manipulated as much as Fate's decrees. Evenorn's memories point this out. "It can't be an easy choice...." That doesn't cease to make it your character's responsibility and morality. Even in a "Fateless" universe, there would still be manipulated choices.

Why is it alright for an immoral group of mortals to manipulate you, but the Creators of the universe...who actually CARE about it...are 'evil' to influence in any way? hmmm...

Now, I have to admit, having walked the halls of theology and philosophy departments for a while, IRL I've put more than my fair share of thought into this. There is no such thing as Free Will, not in the meaning anyone *wants* it to have. You don't have free will about what color socks you wear. But you do have authentic choice. All choices are influenced. By culture, time, money, and circumstances. That doesn't make them less REAL, even if I can predict which choice you're about to make. It only ceases to be real if I intervene in such a way as to remove the choice from you. My knowledge of your predictability does not remove your ability to act out of character.

When the choice ceases to be real is when the influence becomes COERCION. For what it's worth, I think that's 'exactly' what the Herezer's tried to do. They didn't remove themselves from the choice. They forced you to walk their 'dilemma.' But it was a dilemma set up by their own anger at having been enslaved in the past. An excessively dichotomist view of the world that cannot accept that there is compatibility when something is viewed from two different perspectives. Yes, Lor/Fate know the future. But they don't have to coerce to make it happen. Even predestination is not coercion. That which is destined may not be denied. But how it comes to pass does not have to be rubber-stamped on your soul. It does not mean Clockwork Orange brainwashing (which is how my sorceress felt about what the Herezers were trying to do--assuming she knew what the movie was, that is ).

Anyway, I've tried to think what kind of character I could make that would choose to follow the Herezers. It would have to be someone very jaded and angry in a way she was never able to become. She went to sorrowful, bitter to an extent. But saddened more than all else.

Anyway, Thank you again. Part of me has wondered if I overlooked some great different in cosmology for your world (though I've played all the Runelands mods, so I don't 'think' I did). But for her, like you mentioned, there was only ever one choice. She was always going to save life, even if that meant destroying her own.